The Problem with Apostolic Succession

[Earth_is-]

The Messiah was very clear - the Torah is off limits for any changes. Words like "until all things have been fulfilled." "Easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away." A confirmation in Psalms 119:160 - among other places in scripture (Yahushua is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow - Hebrews 13:8). Finally, the Messiah's prophecy in Matthew 7:21-23 should be the final nail in the coffin.

Therefore, whatever keys Peter received, the Torah (law/instructions) is completely off limits. Peter of course knew that - look at how he reacted to eating unclean animals. He said "No" regarding the consumption of un clean animals. Then the meaning of the vision was explained to be about people - not animals. But for those that reject and don't love the truth - they will have their scripture that hasn't been properly divided to fall back to.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-11
....... because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. 11 So Elohim will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies.

If the Catholics are correct (they are not), then that would mean that the Messiah was a false prophet. He did not know the ending from the beginning. He did not foresee that roughly 300 years after he rose from the grave - major changes would begin to take place in his law/instructions - through the handing of the keys to Peter and Apostolic Succession. Therefore, this doctrine is easily refuted once the Word is properly divided.

 

[Brenna]

The Messiah was very clear - the Torah is off limits for any changes. Words like "until all things have been fulfilled." "Easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away." A confirmation in Psalms 119:160 - among other places in scripture (Yahushua is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow - Hebrews 13:8). Finally, the Messiah's prophecy in Matthew 7:21-23 should be the final nail in the coffin.

Therefore, whatever keys Peter received, the Torah (law/instructions) is completely off limits. Peter of course knew that - look at how he reacted to eating unclean animals. He said "No" regarding the consumption of un clean animals. Then the meaning of the vision was explained to be about people - not animals. But for those that reject and don't love the truth - they will have their scripture that hasn't been properly divided to fall back to.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-11
....... because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. 11 So Elohim will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies.

If the Catholics are correct (they are not), then that would mean that the Messiah was a false prophet. He did not know the ending from the beginning. He did not foresee that roughly 300 years after he rose from the grave - major changes would begin to take place in his law/instructions - through the handing of the keys to Peter and Apostolic Succession. Therefore, this doctrine is easily refuted once the Word is properly divided

This sounds very interesting if I understand it correctly which I'm not at all sure that I am... Did Peter take undue liberties to the word of God and/Jesus?

 

[Earth_is-]

This sounds very interesting if I understand it correctly which I'm not at all sure that I am... Did Peter take undue liberties to the word of God and/Jesus?

No - the Word wasn't properly divided. Peter never exalted himself in his letters above anyone else. He considered himself an elder - among many elders. Not a Pope or leader of the apostles. It's a man made tradition that exalted Peter, and made it appear he was given exclusive rights.

Let's read what the Word says when it is properly divided:

Matthew 16:19 (Yahushua to Peter):
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

The Messiah says this same thing for others too:

Matthew 18:15-19 (The Messiah is talking to the believers in general - not specifically Peter):

“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19“Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

-- So this is not referring to changing his own instructions or Torah. This is dealing with personal issues. But human traditions have twisted and done violence to his Word - to support their human traditions they've established. The Apostle Peter is the one that warned that people twist the scriptures to their own destruction - and we are commanded to rightly divide the Word:

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to show thyself approved unto Yahuah, a workman who needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Because as Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 - those that reject and love the truth - they will be allowed to be deceived by the Most High. Just as the case was with Pharaoh. He had more than once chance to let his people go - but after a certain point of continued rejection - his heart was hardened by Yahuah.

Proverbs 29:1
He who is often rebuked, and hardens his neck, Will suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

It's a serious thing to reject truth and correction - especially repeatedly. This is why I personally believe we have some scripture that when it hasn't been properly divided - it can easily mean something else. It's for those that reject and hate the truth that could save them. That's why we are commanded to study and search Him diligently. Not to put our faith in what men say - but study things out like the noble Bereans did with Paul.

 

[JustUs]

No - the Word wasn't properly divided. Peter never exalted himself in his letters above anyone else. He considered himself an elder - among many elders. Not a Pope or leader of the apostles. It's a man made tradition that exalted Peter, and made it appear he was given exclusive rights.

Let's read what the Word says when it is properly divided:

Matthew 16:19 (Yahushua to Peter):
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

The Messiah says this same thing for others too:

Matthew 18:15-19 (The Messiah is talking to the believers in general - not specifically Peter):

“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19“Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

-- So this is not referring to changing his own instructions or Torah. This is dealing with personal issues. But human traditions have twisted and done violence to his Word - to support their human traditions they've established.

The Messiah was very clear - the Torah is off limits for any changes. Words like "until all things have been fulfilled." "Easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away." A confirmation in Psalms 119:160 - among other places in scripture (Yahushua is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow - Hebrews 13:8). Finally, the Messiah's prophecy in Matthew 7:21-23 should be the final nail in the coffin.

Therefore, whatever keys Peter received, the Torah (law/instructions) is completely off limits. Peter of course knew that - look at how he reacted to eating unclean animals. He said "No" regarding the consumption of un clean animals. Then the meaning of the vision was explained to be about people - not animals. But for those that reject and don't love the truth - they will have their scripture that hasn't been properly divided to fall back to.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-11
....... because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. 11 So Elohim will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies.

If the Catholics are correct (they are not), then that would mean that the Messiah was a false prophet. He did not know the ending from the beginning. He did not foresee that roughly 300 years after he rose from the grave - major changes would begin to take place in his law/instructions - through the handing of the keys to Peter and Apostolic Succession. Therefore, this doctrine is easily refuted once the Word is properly divided.

I doubt it is clear as you think or the OO, EO, RC, Lutherans, Anglicans,, messianic Jews, and various Protestant groups would not have a different understanding of Apostolic Succession. So I think a little more humility on your part would be in order because I doubt you are the only one to have it figured out in the last 2000 years.

 

[MeganC]

I doubt it is clear as you think or the OO, EO, RC, Lutherans, Anglicans,, messianic Jews, and various Protestant groups would not have a different understanding of Apostolic Succession. So I think a little more humility on your part would be in order because I doubt you are the only one to have it figured out in the last 2000 years.

 

[Earth_is-]

I doubt it is clear as you think or the OO, EO, RC, Lutherans, Anglicans,, messianic Jews, and various Protestant groups would not have a different understanding of Apostolic Succession. So I think a little more humility on your part would be in order because I doubt you are the only one to have it figured out in the last 2000 years.

Seek it out yourself. Study the scriptures - the answers are in there. These places you mentioned have leaven in them - for they serve more than one master through their 501 c(3) membership with a government that is not looking out for your best interests.

It's better to study yourself to examine/confirm all things like the noble Bereans - versus putting your faith in men:

Isaiah 2:22
Put no more trust in man, who has only the breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?

Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let Elohim be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

 

[JustUs]

Seek it out yourself. Study the scriptures - the answers are in there. These places you mentioned have leaven in them - for they serve more than one master through their 501 c(3) membership with a government that is not looking out for your best interests.

It's better to study yourself to examine/confirm all things like the noble Bereans - versus putting your faith in men:

Isaiah 2:22
Put no more trust in man, who has only the breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?

Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let Elohim be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

God is merciful. We make decisions off of what we study but sometimes those decisions are made in ignorance. we think we understand things in context but we seldom fully do. One of the things that helps me when I study I seek out people with different ideas and try to see why they came to that conclusion. Sometimes they know details about history that I’m not aware of that changes the way you read something. That does lead to the problem studying and coming up with whatever I think. What is the standard? If you say it’s the Bible well that doesn’t help. All these groups use the same Bible. Christians disagree on nearly everything even after they do a lot of studying with each other. Like I said God is merciful.

 

[Earth_is-]

All these groups use the same Bible. Christians disagree on nearly everything even after they do a lot of studying with each other. Like I said God is merciful.

The reason why there are 1,000 different denominations is because they all believe that the law has been fulfilled, or done away with. Therefore, they can pick and choose from the law/instructions they agree with, and dis agree with. This is why some denominations practice sabbath on the 7th day - Saturday. But they don't distinguish between un clean and clean animals. Another denomination might do Sabbath on sungod day, but they distinguish between un clean and clean. In the end - what you get is division and lawlessness. Exactly what the Messiah prophesied:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Lawlessness is transgression of sin. So to break the law - is to go against the Torah (law/instructions). How is that possible for a Christian if it has been nailed on the cross? This teaching is the bad seed that was planted on the ground - which the Messiah instructed not to pull out till the very end.

But the law is Holy, Righteous, and Good. Not the smallest thing will pass away until all has been fulfilled. Therefore, sunday sabbath, eating swine flesh and other un-clean animals, and participating in pagan ways of worship (which is forbidden in His law/instructions), is practicing lawlessness if it hasn't been repented from.

 

[Earth_is-]

God is merciful.

He is patient. As we should be with each other as well.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

 

[FollowingHim]

for they serve more than one master through their 501 c(3) membership with a government that is not looking out for your best interests

Every church in the world is wrong because some churches in the USA happen to fall under a domestic US law which has problems? Really? Quite apart from @JustUs' correct point that people make decisions in ignorance - the USA is not the world.

 

[Earth_is-]

Every church in the world is wrong because some churches in the USA happen to fall under a domestic US law which has problems? Really? Quite apart from @JustUs' correct point that people make decisions in ignorance - the USA is not the world.

That is a reason. But not the only reason, of course. There are many reasons - and a lot of it is in ignorance as it's written:

Jeremiah 16:19 (KJV)
Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

 

[Bartato]

It seems to me that Earth_is- is trying to stir up the mandatory total Torah Observance for all believers quarrel again.

 

[Earth_is-]

It seems to me that Earth_is- is trying to stir up the mandatory total Torah Observance for all believers quarrel again.

No - that is not the case. I'm reminding people of the commandments:

1 John 5:2-4

2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

If people have forgotten the commandments or are walking in ignorance through the inheritance of lies - then it's a good thing to remind someone something that is Holy, Righteous, and Good. Especially when Paul instructs believers to be slaves to Righteousness. And the Almighty's definition of Righteousness is his Law/Instructions.

 

[FollowingHim]

It seems to me that Earth_is- is trying to stir up the mandatory total Torah Observance for all believers quarrel again.

I agree. Thread is now locked.