The Qur'an says Christians are saved

[Ahmad]

Interesting ..

To understand this verse of Quran in the right way, you should be able to define the word *Christian*, as Quran refers to the followers of Eisa (Jesus) as Nasara.
Where does the world Christian come from?

Anyways, the true followers of Eisa -Jesus- Allah's peace and blessings be upon him are those who follow the world of God that was sent to him, not those who claim to follow him.

Matthew 7:22-23
21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day,‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and inYour name drive out demons and perform manymiracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!

 

[FollowingHim]

Welcome back to the forum Ahmad, I see you were on here before I started, I am glad to have the opportunity to meet you.

I am using A. Yusuf Ali's English translation of the Quran, but unfortunately I cannot read Arabic so I'll have to ask you to clarify this. I assume in S2:62, where the English states "Christian", the Arabic is "Nasana". Is there a difference in meaning that you are trying to point out that means the word "Christian" does not get across the full meaning of the verse?

The word "Christian" first appears in Acts 11:26, so it is biblical. But I believe it was a label that others called the followers of Jesus, until they started using it themselves. Just as many Westerners called Muslims "Mohammadans" in the past.

Anyways, the true followers of Eisa -Jesus- Allah's peace and blessings be upon him are those who follow the world of God that was sent to him, not those who claim to follow him

That is very true. There are many who claim to be Christians, but far fewer who truly follow Jesus. Our aim is to try and understand His teachings better so we can follow Him more accurately throughout our lives.

I am sure there are also many people who call themselves Muslims just because their family is Muslim, but who do not truly practice the religion.

Are you still in Saudi Arabia? There are news articles occasionally about Mohammad ben Salman relaxing restrictions on women etc - is this real, or just talk? Are there any moves to increase religious freedom?

Is it legal to posess a Bible in Saudi Arabia? I had a Muslim friend from the Maldives when I was in university, and Bibles are forbidden there, but he smuggled one back home so he could read the Torah, Psalms and Gospels. I found it strange that books stated in the Quran to be from God would be forbidden by an Islamic government.

 

[Ahmad]

Thank you "FollowingHim" for your quick response.

The word "Nasara" refers to Christians, Muslims call those who believes in bible, and believes that God has a son his name is (Jesus, Esus, Isa, Yasou, or Yashoa, or other names) call them Nasara.

Where does this word come from?
Quran calls them Nasara, and Prophet Mohammad God's peace and blessings upon him, does. It appears that Arabs before Islam also refers Christians as "Nasara". The origin of the word Nasara is not clear to me, and I have two speculations:

1- It comes from the Village of Nazareth, as it is related to Jesus/Eisa, Allah's peace and blessings be upon him. He was also called Nazarene in the Bible, which is similar to the Arabic word نصراني Nasrani, means a person who believes in Christianity.

2- It comes to describe the followers of Jesus/Eisa, Allah's peace and blessings be upon him. As in Quran Allah says the following:
"(52)When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.(53) Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger. then write us down among those who bear witness."

The word in Arabic used to describe "helper" is: أنصار Ansar, compare it with Nasara. Ansar means something beyond help and support, it means: I will help you until you reach victory, and will stay with you.

My question is, does the word Christian come from Cross, or Chris. The origin of these two words Christian and cross may help understand the term Nasara.

Yes, I am in Saudi Arabia now. Prince Mohammed has changed a lot, he wants to reform Saudi's economic, politics, and religious views. Women are lucky these days, they get jobs, and the government forces some sectors to hire "women only".
As for Bible, I do have many copies in my library, and I do have many other Christian publications, I think there is no restrictions in bringing them, but distributing them is still illegal.

Yes, the Bible was mentioned in Quran many times, and I do not recall any incident where Prophet Mohammed Allah's peace and blessings be upon him forbid Muslims from possessing the Bible.

 

[Phillip]

Salam a likim Sadik. (excuse my spelling, but I think you’ll get my meaning) I spent nearly three years in Riyadh working at Al Salam Aircraft. We did a PDM mod in the the F-15’s. Our work center was at the airport.

I used to enjoy getting out and seeing the different sights. Clock Tower, the sukes and that’s where I got introduced to shwarmas.

Did a little traveling while there. Went diving in the Red Sea bear Jeddah.

I was there in May of 2003 when the Al Quida used 800 pounds of explosives and took out the back gate of our compound. I saw the good and bad. But, I made a lot of friends and still have great memories of Saudi. I love the people there. Well, except the ones wanting to blow me up.

 

[FollowingHim]

The followers of Jesus have been referred to by many names. In Acts 24:5 the Jews call them "the sect of the Nazarenes". If Nasara comes from Nazareth, it makes sense and would be another ancient name.

If it means "helpers", it would be similar to the word "disciples". But I think this is less likely as it does not specifically identify whose disciples they were. Many teachers have had 'disciples', people who follow, help and learn from them. John the Baptist had disciples too. I don't see why a word meaning 'helpers' would come to be used for Christians specifically as opposed to the followers of any prophet.

Christian comes from "Christ", Greek for Messiah / anointed one. It means follower of Christ. It has no relation to the word 'cross'.

It is interesting to hear the reforms are real, and good to know that you can have religious material for your own use.

There are a range of views among Christians as to what it means that Jesus is God's 'Son'. We know that Adam was God's son, as he came from God (Luke 3:38), and by extension we are all God's children as we all come from God. Even rebellious angels are called "sons of god" in Genesis 6:2. But there is something special about Jesus, in that He is called God's Son repeatedly in the Gospels.

We know that Jesus was born of Mary as a virgin, and conceived by a miraculous act of the Holy Spirit of God. This is confirmed repeatedly in the Qur'an (e.g. S21:91). Now, we know from science that a woman does not carry the genetic information for a male - she does not have a Y chromosome. It is plausible that God could make a female child in the womb of a woman entirely from her own genetic material, but impossible for a man to exist without that genetic material coming from elsewhere. So to create a man in her womb, God had to create this genetic information as a new creation, by the Spirit, just as He did for Adam also (S25:29). This genetic information therefore came directly from God, and Jesus was at least in part directly from God, just like Adam.

Therefore He can be called God's son in the same way that Adam was. This is why S3:59 states "The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be", and he was.", and why 1 Cor 15:55 refers to them as the First Adam and the Last Adam.

Now that does not mean that Jesus is God, and that is the teaching that Islam rejects. But it is also important to know that some Christians reject this also. The Bible never says we need to believe that Jesus is God - only that we must believe He is Lord (master).

"... if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

According to Islamic tradition Jesus will return in the last days, and rule for a period. Therefore he is the annointed ruler, ie "Lord" or master. Lord does not mean God, Sarah even called Abraham "Lord" as he was her master (1 Pet 3:6).

'Raised from the dead' is obviously a different issue, but if God can create a living man from dust (Adam), and from the womb of a virgin (Mary), then surely it is by comparison very easy for Him to make a dead body alive again, the physical body is there already, it just needs to breathe again!

 

[FollowingHim]

Clarification for Christian readers: when I write a reference like "S3:59" above I am referring to the Quran, Surah 3, verse 59.

 

[Ahmad]

Salam a likim Sadik. (excuse my spelling, but I think you’ll get my meaning) I spent nearly three years in Riyadh working at Al Salam Aircraft. We did a PDM mod in the the F-15’s. Our work center was at the airport.

I used to enjoy getting out and seeing the different sights. Clock Tower, the sukes and that’s where I got introduced to shwarmas.

Did a little traveling while there. Went diving in the Red Sea bear Jeddah.

I was there in May of 2003 when the Al Quida used 800 pounds of explosives and took out the back gate of our compound. I saw the good and bad. But, I made a lot of friends and still have great memories of Saudi. I love the people there. Well, except the ones wanting to blow me up.

Dear Phillip
وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله
Wa'Alykum Alsalam, Warahmatullah
Peace be upon you, and Allah's mercy

You got it right! To explain, Muslims greet each other by saying:
"Peace be upon you, and Allah's mercy and blessings"
Jews in Hebrew have similar greeting; “Sholom Aleichem” means peace be upon you.
New Testament teaches this too (Luke 24:36), (Luke 10:5), (John 20:19), (John 20:21), and (John 20:26).
Arabs used to say "Good morning" and "Good evening", the prophet Mohammed Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and upon all prophets, asl them to say "Peace be upon you, and Allah's mercy and blessings". That is why you see Muslims despite their language backgrounds greet each others in that why. I wonder, do Christians do the same? I know that Jews do.

I heard about Al Salam company, is it at Karj city?

And great to know that you have been introduced to shwarma! It is the most favorite meal for most of Saudis, beside Kabsah.

I am happy that you survived during Al Qaidah attack, I think between 2002 and 2005 they were very active in Saudi Arabia, and they killed more Saudi Muslims than non Muslims.

 

[Ahmad]

The followers of Jesus have been referred to by many names. In Acts 24:5 the Jews call them "the sect of the Nazarenes". If Nasara comes from Nazareth, it makes sense and would be another ancient name.

If it means "helpers", it would be similar to the word "disciples". But I think this is less likely as it does not specifically identify whose disciples they were. Many teachers have had 'disciples', people who follow, help and learn from them. John the Baptist had disciples too. I don't see why a word meaning 'helpers' would come to be used for Christians specifically as opposed to the followers of any prophet.

Christian comes from "Christ", Greek for Messiah / anointed one. It means follower of Christ. It has no relation to the word 'cross'.

It is interesting to hear the reforms are real, and good to know that you can have religious material for your own use.

There are a range of views among Christians as to what it means that Jesus is God's 'Son'. We know that Adam was God's son, as he came from God (Luke 3:38), and by extension we are all God's children as we all come from God. Even rebellious angels are called "sons of god" in Genesis 6:2. But there is something special about Jesus, in that He is called God's Son repeatedly in the Gospels.

We know that Jesus was born of Mary as a virgin, and conceived by a miraculous act of the Holy Spirit of God. This is confirmed repeatedly in the Qur'an (e.g. S21:91). Now, we know from science that a woman does not carry the genetic information for a male - she does not have a Y chromosome. It is plausible that God could make a female child in the womb of a woman entirely from her own genetic material, but impossible for a man to exist without that genetic material coming from elsewhere. So to create a man in her womb, God had to create this genetic information as a new creation, by the Spirit, just as He did for Adam also (S25:29). This genetic information therefore came directly from God, and Jesus was at least in part directly from God, just like Adam.

Therefore He can be called God's son in the same way that Adam was. This is why S3:59 states "The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be", and he was.", and why 1 Cor 15:55 refers to them as the First Adam and the Last Adam.

Now that does not mean that Jesus is God, and that is the teaching that Islam rejects. But it is also important to know that some Christians reject this also. The Bible never says we need to believe that Jesus is God - only that we must believe He is Lord (master).

"... if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

According to Islamic tradition Jesus will return in the last days, and rule for a period. Therefore he is the annointed ruler, ie "Lord" or master. Lord does not mean God, Sarah even called Abraham "Lord" as he was her master (1 Pet 3:6).

'Raised from the dead' is obviously a different issue, but if God can create a living man from dust (Adam), and from the womb of a virgin (Mary), then surely it is by comparison very easy for Him to make a dead body alive again, the physical body is there already, it just needs to breathe again!

Thank you for your response. I agree with most of what you said.

- Eisa/Jesus peace be upon him born was miracles.
- He will return, and Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him talks about the sings of his coming, too many and some of them are so detailed and accurate.
- Quran says the return of Eisa/Jesus is a sign for the judgment day.

Islam teaches that no one is more powerful than God, or equal to God, nor God has son or daughter, nor father or wife. Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him said " Do not exaggerate my status as the Christians did to (Jesus) the son of Mary. I am merely a servant of His, so say (only): The servant of Allah and His Messenger.” (Sahih al-Bukhari)".

If I may ask a question Do you think Jesus, was the real name for the son of Merry?

 

[Phillip]

Dear Phillip
وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله
Wa'Alykum Alsalam, Warahmatullah
Peace be upon you, and Allah's mercy

You got it right! To explain, Muslims greet each other by saying:
"Peace be upon you, and Allah's mercy and blessings"
Jews in Hebrew have similar greeting; “Sholom Aleichem” means peace be upon you.
New Testament teaches this too (Luke 24:36), (Luke 10:5), (John 20:19), (John 20:21), and (John 20:26).
Arabs used to say "Good morning" and "Good evening", the prophet Mohammed Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and upon all prophets, asl them to say "Peace be upon you, and Allah's mercy and blessings". That is why you see Muslims despite their language backgrounds greet each others in that why. I wonder, do Christians do the same? I know that Jews do.

I heard about Al Salam company, is it at Karj city?

And great to know that you have been introduced to shwarma! It is the most favorite meal for most of Saudis, beside Kabsah.

I am happy that you survived during Al Qaidah attack, I think between 2002 and 2005 they were very active in Saudi Arabia, and they killed more Saudi Muslims than non Muslims.

As Christians, in this day and age, we don’t have any special greetings. I always liked those special greetings by the Saudis.

I believe Al Salam is in many cities in Saudi. My work was in Riyadh. I visited Jeddah and went diving in the Red Sea. I also visited the east coast. Dahahran, saw the gulf. I went to the yearly festival in north Riyadh and saw old traditional ways including cooking. The Saudis know how to eat. Great food.

 

[FollowingHim]

Ahmad, I find it very interesting how close our understandings are.

If I may ask a question Do you think Jesus, was the real name for the son of Merry?

No. As a Jew, he would have been given a Hebrew name - therefore his name is Yeshua. Eisa, Jesus, and all other names are just translations or mispronunciations in other languages. Jesus is certainly incorrect, as there is no "J" sound in Hebrew. But I tend to use it in discussions as it is most easily recognised.

Also, Mary's name would actually have been Miriam. In Greek it becomes Mary, in Latin Maria.

Islam teaches that no one is more powerful than God, or equal to God, nor God has son or daughter, nor father or wife. Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him said " Do not exaggerate my status as the Christians did to (Jesus) the son of Mary. I am merely a servant of His, so say (only): The servant of Allah and His Messenger.” (Sahih al-Bukhari)".

They do blaspheme who say "God is Christ the son of Mary". But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God, God will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

Islam is very careful to ensure that God is elevated above all else, and this is good. However, it is important to recognise that in most Muslim thought, Catholicism is considered equivalent to Christianity. The Qur'an teaches against many concepts that are actually inventions of the Catholic church - it is incorrect to ascribe these to all Christians. In my mind, the primary purpose of Islam was to tear down false theology and traditions invented by man, such as idolatry, saint veneration and false legalism, that had covered up and complicated the simple faith that God wishes us to have in Him. The Catholic church and the Jews, both of which have added the teachings of man to those of God, needed to hear "Say: O People of the Book: Exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by, who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way." (S. 5 v 80).

When we are simply seeking the simplicity of God, we will find much in common.

The Trinity is a Catholic concept. It is not stated in the Bible. It is an illustration of God, invented by humans, looking for a simple way to understand One who is far above our understanding. So it is likely to be flawed through its simplicity. It may have elements of truth in it (may even be entirely true), however it is not essential for Christianity.

The three entities placed in the Trinity are:

• God, referred to as the "Father" in Christian theology, or Allah in Muslim.
• The Spirit of God (referenced repeatedly in the Bible and the Qur'an, the life-giving power that comes from God)
• Jesus, called the Son in Christian theology

Firstly, we know that these are not equal in authority, because Jesus prayed to God (Matthew 26:39) and obeyed him (John 6:38), and even taught his followers to pray to God not himself (Luke 11:2). So God is above Jesus. The Spirit is also sent by God, and is subject to him. So we agree that "no one is more powerful than God, or equal to God".

Jesus did also say "I and the Father are one", in John 10:30. As God has no physical body, this most likely means that the spirit in Jesus' body was that of God Himself. If that is the case, then God most certainly is One, and worked through His Spirit dwelling in Jesus' body. Jesus never said "I am a separate being that is equal to God", because then they would have been "two", not "one". He only said that he had God Himself, the one and only God, in him. In this case the physical Jesus is a human body that came from and is subject to God, but had God Himself working in and through Him. Now this can be seen as that which is described as "blasphemy" in the Qur'an ("In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary...", S. 5. v 19), or can be seen as God being in Christ but not being him, which is not the "blasphemy" described here. So the details are complex and worthy of much discussion - but I still agree with you that "no one is more powerful than God, or equal to God".

Secondly, we know that God has no "father or wife". He certainly has no father, as he is everlasting. And he was not married to Mary. Prophetically, Israel and Judah are spoken of as God's "wives", but this is an illustration of God's devotion and care to them, and discipline of them, not a statement of equality with God. He has no wife in the sense that a man has a wife.

So I actually agree with much of what you said. The only key point of disagreement comes back to whether God has a son.

The Qur'an states (S5 v78) "Christ the son of Mary was no more than an Apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him.". However, it also states that "The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be", and he was." (S3 v59), so it recognises that he is unique also - unique because of his special origin.

In many ways, this becomes a disagreement about words, as we use the same word to mean two different things, so don't understand what each other are saying.

Christians use the word "son" in many ways, as in the Bible - Adam was God's son (as he came directly from God), the angels are God's sons (as they also came directly from Him), and we are all adopted as sons of God as part of our salvation. Jesus is God's son (coming directly from Him into the womb of a virgin, and also existing as a spirit before then until being placed in the body created in Mary's womb). We use this word to depict the relationship of somebody to God - being subservient to God, yet coming from Him and having a special relationship with Him. And we describe the special uniqueness of Jesus' nature and origin using the word "Son".

Muslims see the word "son" as implying equality with God, so avoid using it. Also, they see the word "son" as implying that God must have a wife and reproduce sexually like a human (this is not taught in Christianity). So Muslims do not describe Jesus' uniqueness using the word "Son", as they see that as derogatory to God - but still recognise that uniqueness.

This difference is illustrated in S. 5. v 20: "Both the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of God, and His beloved". Say: "Why doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men, of the men he hath created...". This can be seen as a major theological disagreement, or just a difference in terminology, depending on how you look at it.

We have more in common in our understanding of Jesus than you might at first think, but we describe and act on it differently.

The primary difference is not whether we call him a "son", but whether we choose to be subject to him as Lord, as in Romans 10:9.

 

[Ahmad]

Ahmad, I find it very interesting how close our understandings are.

No. As a Jew, he would have been given a Hebrew name - therefore his name is Yeshua. Eisa, Jesus, and all other names are just translations or mispronunciations in other languages. Jesus is certainly incorrect, as there is no "J" sound in Hebrew. But I tend to use it in discussions as it is most easily recognised.

Also, Mary's name would actually have been Miriam. In Greek it becomes Mary, in Latin Maria.

.

Thanks for your response, it is really interesting to discuss such topics. I will read you comment today, and comment back, but just want now to comment on the real name of Jesus.

I believe the name of Jesus was evolved or changed due to different translation stages and pronunciation differences.
Let us agree that Jesus has many names in the Bible:
1- Jesus
2- The Messiah
2- Yeshua (which I believe is is deviated from the real name of Jesus)

Among these names, Jesus is the only noun, other names can be adjective. For example, the name "Yeshua" means to deliver in Hebrew, and many share this name in the old testaments. Same goes to Messiah, there are many called Messiah in the Bible. I conclude with this that Yeshua or Messiah are adjectives that also can be names for a person, but it does not mean that they are the born/given name. So Jesus, despite the changes occurred to that name, is his name. This leads to how does the name evolved? I will explain this:

1- Jesus name was عيسى Eisa. However, the letter ع is found in Arabic, Hebrew and Aramaic, not Greek, Latin, German nor English. Therefore, people tends to change it to (I,E or Y) as I did and call the prophet عيسى Eisa (peace be upon him).
2- The letter J was used to pronounce letter Y/E in many languages include Dutch, Latin, and Greek. See this interesting discussion:
https://english.stackexchange.com/q...ars-old-was-there-a-j-sound-that-preceded-the

Till now we know that عيسى Eisa starts with the word ع and letter ع replaced with letter J as it sounds close to it. The name till Now is: Jesu. So where did the letter S at the end come from?
We know that Greek language has genders for each noun, names ending with 's' means that the gender of the word is masculine. Therefore: Jesu + s =Jesus

See here How Aramaic calls Jesus, they call him Eeso http://www.learnassyrian.com/aramai...TXLabd6NiXRNK8gkhIp413Tfbpi5R_jCQkyia3lrZrjWk

Keep in mind the double "ee" because there is no letter ع to refer to in English. For example, the Christmas is called " Eedaa Soorraa" and Ee means ع. Philip lived in Saudi Arabia for awhile and he can recognize the word ع and he may say it A,E,Y, or I depends on the context, as it is difficult for one who did not learn the Semitic languages (Arabic, Hebrew or Aramaic) to pronounce it. Same goes to non Arabic Muslims, they replace ع with A,E,Y, or I. As Islam is so strict in Holy names and Quran, no one can lead prayer if he cannot pronounce the letter ع in correct way. Pronouncing the letter differently, may lead to different meanings.

 

[Cap]

Thanks for your response, it is really interesting to discuss such topics. I will read you comment today, and comment back, but just want now to comment on the real name of Jesus.

I believe the name of Jesus was evolved or changed due to different translation stages and pronunciation differences.
Let us agree that Jesus has many names in the Bible:
1- Jesus
2- The Messiah
2- Yeshua (which I believe is is deviated from the real name of Jesus)

Among these names, Jesus is the only noun, other names can be adjective. For example, the name "Yeshua" means to deliver in Hebrew, and many share this name in the old testaments. Same goes to Messiah, there are many called Messiah in the Bible. I conclude with this that Yeshua or Messiah are adjectives that also can be names for a person, but it does not mean that they are the born/given name. So Jesus, despite the changes occurred to that name, is his name. This leads to how does the name evolved? I will explain this:

1- Jesus name was عيسى Eisa. However, the letter ع is found in Arabic, Hebrew and Aramaic, not Greek, Latin, German nor English. Therefore, people tends to change it to (I,E or Y) as I did and call the prophet عيسى Eisa (peace be upon him).
2- The letter J was used to pronounce letter Y/E in many languages include Dutch, Latin, and Greek. See this interesting discussion:
https://english.stackexchange.com/q...ars-old-was-there-a-j-sound-that-preceded-the

Till now we know that عيسى Eisa starts with the word ع and letter ع replaced with letter J as it sounds close to it. The name till Now is: Jesu. So where did the letter S at the end come from?
We know that Greek language has genders for each noun, names ending with 's' means that the gender of the word is masculine. Therefore: Jesu + s =Jesus

See here How Aramaic calls Jesus, they call him Eeso http://www.learnassyrian.com/aramai...TXLabd6NiXRNK8gkhIp413Tfbpi5R_jCQkyia3lrZrjWk

Keep in mind the double "ee" because there is no letter ع to refer to in English. For example, the Christmas is called " Eedaa Soorraa" and Ee means ع. Philip lived in Saudi Arabia for awhile and he can recognize the word ع and he may say it A,E,Y, or I depends on the context, as it is difficult for one who did not learn the Semitic languages (Arabic, Hebrew or Aramaic) to pronounce it. Same goes to non Arabic Muslims, they replace ع with A,E,Y, or I. As Islam is so strict in Holy names and Quran, no one can lead prayer if he cannot pronounce the letter ع in correct way. Pronouncing the letter differently, may lead to different meanings.

I have always struggled with the name Yeshua and Yahshua. The name Joshua in the Old Testament more aligns with the the functions of the Son of God. Since Yeshua is basically a translation of Jesus I am not sure how that works. The name Joshua in Hebrew would seem to fit better. Any thoughts.

 

[FollowingHim]

I have always struggled with the name Yeshua and Yahshua. The name Joshua in the Old Testament more aligns with the the functions of the Son of God. Since Yeshua is basically a translation of Jesus I am not sure how that works. The name Joshua in Hebrew would seem to fit better. Any thoughts.

Yeshua is Joshua, with a Y instead of a J. Joshua in the Old Testament would have actually been called Yeshua (or something very similar to that if the transliteration is not perfect). It's the same name, just transliterated differently.

 

[FollowingHim]

Great point about the reason for the 'us' at the end of "Jesus", so many Roman names finished that way (Julius, Pontus, Justus...).

For example, the name "Yeshua" means to deliver in Hebrew, and many share this name in the old testaments. Same goes to Messiah, there are many called Messiah in the Bible. I conclude with this that Yeshua or Messiah are adjectives that also can be names for a person, but it does not mean that they are the born/given name.

I agree that the name "Yeshua" has a meaning, but I don't see why that would mean it was not his actual name. The name "Mary" or "Miriam" also has a meaning - basically "Rebellion" - but that is still her actual name. Hebrew names all had meanings, they were not just sounds chosen because they sounded like a good name. I don't see this as a reason to think that His name was not "Yeshua".

I agree that "Eisa" is likely much closer to the original pronunciation than "Jesus" is, and thankyou for all this information on the letters, it is very interesting.

 

[Ahmad]

Great point about the reason for the 'us' at the end of "Jesus", so many Roman names finished that way (Julius, Pontus, Justus...).

I agree that the name "Yeshua" has a meaning, but I don't see why that would mean it was not his actual name. The name "Mary" or "Miriam" also has a meaning - basically "Rebellion" - but that is still her actual name. Hebrew names all had meanings, they were not just sounds chosen because they sounded like a good name. I don't see this as a reason to think that His name was not "Yeshua".

I agree that "Eisa" is likely much closer to the original pronunciation than "Jesus" is, and thankyou for all this information on the letters, it is very interesting.

There has to be one given name to Jesus at birth, and other names may considered as nicknames.
I think the name "Yeshua" is also evolved from Eisa.

Cubtic and Arabian Christians call Jesus "Yasou" or "Yesua" and they do not recognize the name Jesus, which lead to believe Jesus, Yesua, Yeshua is one name but different pronunciation.

Yashou has evolved from Eisa, as Y=Ei= ع
In English, "sha" equals to "ش" in Arabic, and "سـ" in Aramaic, and the "Sa" quals to letter "س" and "سـ" in Aramaic. Note the Aramaic uses "سـ"
They both have very close pronunciation. Therefore, if the name in Aramaic is Yashou, it can be pronounced:
Eisa, or Eisha, from here, the name Yasou, how coptic calls Jesus, came.

It is not easy to get back to the root of this, as Old Hebrew, and Old Aramaic (which I think the language prophet Eisa peace be upon him was using) are both dead languages, even the spoken ones now, are different from the old ones, and I think too much difference.
Compare the old English with the modern one to understand the meaning.

I uploaded one photo, for two words: one in Arabic, and the other one in Aramaic, do you see how similar they are? Note that the first one is written by a computer, second one is hand writing.

 

[FollowingHim]

There are some similarities too to "Yeshua" as written in the Second Temple form of Hebrew, here.
My lack of knowledge of ancient languages is making it difficult for me to make any further constructive points on this, I'm just reading what you say and finding it very interesting!

 

[The Revolting Man]

There has to be one given name to Jesus at birth, and other names may considered as nicknames.
I think the name "Yeshua" is also evolved from Eisa.

Cubtic and Arabian Christians call Jesus "Yasou" or "Yesua" and they do not recognize the name Jesus, which lead to believe Jesus, Yesua, Yeshua is one name but different pronunciation.

Yashou has evolved from Eisa, as Y=Ei= ع
In English, "sha" equals to "ش" in Arabic, and "سـ" in Aramaic, and the "Sa" quals to letter "س" and "سـ" in Aramaic. Note the Aramaic uses "سـ"
They both have very close pronunciation. Therefore, if the name in Aramaic is Yashou, it can be pronounced:
Eisa, or Eisha, from here, the name Yasou, how coptic calls Jesus, came.

It is not easy to get back to the root of this, as Old Hebrew, and Old Aramaic (which I think the language prophet Eisa peace be upon him was using) are both dead languages, even the spoken ones now, are different from the old ones, and I think too much difference.
Compare the old English with the modern one to understand the meaning.

I uploaded one photo, for two words: one in Arabic, and the other one in Aramaic, do you see how similar they are? Note that the first one is written by a computer, second one is hand writing.

And why do you discount the possibility that Eisa evolved from the Hebrew Yeshua? We know that Yeshua was a Jewish name, we know that the name lines up with Old Testament prophecies about what Messiah's name. We know that Arabic as we Know it is a much younger language. We also know that Jews of Jesus' era were the ones who translated His name into Greek and Latin so we can be fairly confident that they translated it correctly. It seems to me much more likely that the Arabs (or Persians due to their outsized influence on Islam's early centuries) mistranslated it much later than that His companions did.

 

[Ahmad]

ZecAustin,
That is a good point.
Yeshua is an old name, we do have it in Islamic texts; Yeshua Ibn (the son of) Noun. He was one of the followers of Mosa (Moses) Allah's peace and blessings be upon them, and then he was appointed as prophet by God.
Basically, the Aramaic, which I believe was the language of Jesus, calls Jesus عيسو similar to عيسى in Arabic, the pronunciation may also be similar but when I write the name, I correspond each alphabet with its correspondent and ignore who it is pronounced in a sentence.
Both Aramaic and Arabic have the letter Y, so why they change it to ع A'a?

About the translation of the name, I cannot say the Greek or Latin translators were accurate or not. Even if they were, there is no letter corresponds to letter ع , so they replace it with a letter that sounds similar to it.
See this video:

I give you one example:
عبدالله Abdullah is a famous Muslim name, means the slave of Allah. However, when I translate the name I couldn't find any letter corresponds to ع so I replace it with A. Assume there is an Arab who wants to translate "Abdullah" to the Arabic, assuming he does not know what does this word mean, he will write: آبدولا not عبدالله ! Because he spell what he does hear. Generations after generations without examining the development of languages, and with the absent of the correct pronunciation, they will try to understand what does آبدولا mean. they may separate it into two words: آب and دوله which means return / country, and they may say return to a country, and do not be surprised of someone says: it means he will return to the heaven. I believe same thing goes to many names in the Bible.

I think I may disagree with you about the existence of the Arabic language. I know that this subject , the root of languages, in particular is very hard to prove because proof needs materialistic evidences, which are almost absent for most languages. For example, many claim that Tamil is the oldest living language, but when examining the historical evidence to support such a claim, you find none.

When it comes to the semantic languages (Arabic, Aramaic, and Hebrew) I cannot say which comes first, which is the root, which evolved from another one. But I know that Ismael (Eshmael) the son of Ibrahim (Abraham) peace and blessings be upon them, spoke the Arabic language. As Muslims, we believe that the prophet Ismail is the one who was put to sacrifice, not Isac Allah's blessings be upon them all. And the mountain was in Mecca, and the Vally was Bakka. Bakka, Macca, are two roots words from three letters م ك ة and ب ك ة , the root is Arabic, and hundreds of words been been derived from these two roots. The Bakka is mentioned too in the Old Testament.

Therefore, Arabic may be one of the oldest languages, and I believe Arabic is the oldest living language spoken by more than 500 million. Look at the Quran for instance, it was revealed 609 CE, and people still use the same language. Examine historical evidences even before Quran, some of them 600/800 BC, you find Arabic spoken in the same way now, but in the same way of writing, it has changed a bit.

I am not a language expert nor a linguistic, I am just trying to give a perspective based on my understanding of the history, and my studies of both the Bible, Quran and The Sunnah.

 

[FollowingHim]

I think in many ways the question about whose language is the oldest, is a religious one. Muslims believe Islam to represent the true religion of Abraham, and as part of this belief, claim that the Kabbalah dates back to Abraham (which may be true, I'm not disputing it), and here @Ahmad claims that the Arabic language also dates back to then.

On the other hand, Jews claim that Abraham spoke Hebrew. And I think that the fact that Moses' books were written in Hebrew, not that long after Abraham, lends documentary evidence to this claim.

But in reality, at the time of Abraham both Hebrews and Arabs spoke the same language, because they were one people. All three languages originate from a common root. So all can be said to be equally ancient (just with a greater or lesser degree of modification). Which one has changed more and which one has changed least is a bit of an "our language is better than your language" argument, and I really can't see much point in it.

You are probably correct that Arabic is the oldest (it's certainly one of the oldest) living language spoken by many people. The publication of the Qur'an in Arabic, and the insistence of continuing to use it in Arabic and not in translated forms, has done much to keep that language in use, and also stabilise it and reduce further modification of the language.

It's really interesting to discuss how Mary would have pronounced the name she called her son. However ultimately I don't think God will mind precisely how we pronounce it, what He cares about is what is in our heart, what we believe and how we act. So it's fascinating but has little practical application.

@Ahmad, I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts on my post #30 above.

 

[Ahmad]

Ahmad, I find it very interesting how close our understandings are.

No. As a Jew, he would have been given a Hebrew name - therefore his name is Yeshua. Eisa, Jesus, and all other names are just translations or mispronunciations in other languages. Jesus is certainly incorrect, as there is no "J" sound in Hebrew. But I tend to use it in discussions as it is most easily recognised.

Also, Mary's name would actually have been Miriam. In Greek it becomes Mary, in Latin Maria.


Islam is very careful to ensure that God is elevated above all else, and this is good. However, it is important to recognise that in most Muslim thought, Catholicism is considered equivalent to Christianity. The Qur'an teaches against many concepts that are actually inventions of the Catholic church - it is incorrect to ascribe these to all Christians. In my mind, the primary purpose of Islam was to tear down false theology and traditions invented by man, such as idolatry, saint veneration and false legalism, that had covered up and complicated the simple faith that God wishes us to have in Him. The Catholic church and the Jews, both of which have added the teachings of man to those of God, needed to hear "Say: O People of the Book: Exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by, who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way." (S. 5 v 80).

When we are simply seeking the simplicity of God, we will find much in common.

The Trinity is a Catholic concept. It is not stated in the Bible. It is an illustration of God, invented by humans, looking for a simple way to understand One who is far above our understanding. So it is likely to be flawed through its simplicity. It may have elements of truth in it (may even be entirely true), however it is not essential for Christianity.

The three entities placed in the Trinity are:

• God, referred to as the "Father" in Christian theology, or Allah in Muslim.
• The Spirit of God (referenced repeatedly in the Bible and the Qur'an, the life-giving power that comes from God)
• Jesus, called the Son in Christian theology

Firstly, we know that these are not equal in authority, because Jesus prayed to God (Matthew 26:39) and obeyed him (John 6:38), and even taught his followers to pray to God not himself (Luke 11:2). So God is above Jesus. The Spirit is also sent by God, and is subject to him. So we agree that "no one is more powerful than God, or equal to God".

Jesus did also say "I and the Father are one", in John 10:30. As God has no physical body, this most likely means that the spirit in Jesus' body was that of God Himself. If that is the case, then God most certainly is One, and worked through His Spirit dwelling in Jesus' body. Jesus never said "I am a separate being that is equal to God", because then they would have been "two", not "one". He only said that he had God Himself, the one and only God, in him. In this case the physical Jesus is a human body that came from and is subject to God, but had God Himself working in and through Him. Now this can be seen as that which is described as "blasphemy" in the Qur'an ("In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary...", S. 5. v 19), or can be seen as God being in Christ but not being him, which is not the "blasphemy" described here. So the details are complex and worthy of much discussion - but I still agree with you that "no one is more powerful than God, or equal to God".

Secondly, we know that God has no "father or wife". He certainly has no father, as he is everlasting. And he was not married to Mary. Prophetically, Israel and Judah are spoken of as God's "wives", but this is an illustration of God's devotion and care to them, and discipline of them, not a statement of equality with God. He has no wife in the sense that a man has a wife.

So I actually agree with much of what you said. The only key point of disagreement comes back to whether God has a son.

The Qur'an states (S5 v78) "Christ the son of Mary was no more than an Apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him.". However, it also states that "The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be", and he was." (S3 v59), so it recognises that he is unique also - unique because of his special origin.

In many ways, this becomes a disagreement about words, as we use the same word to mean two different things, so don't understand what each other are saying.

Christians use the word "son" in many ways, as in the Bible - Adam was God's son (as he came directly from God), the angels are God's sons (as they also came directly from Him), and we are all adopted as sons of God as part of our salvation. Jesus is God's son (coming directly from Him into the womb of a virgin, and also existing as a spirit before then until being placed in the body created in Mary's womb). We use this word to depict the relationship of somebody to God - being subservient to God, yet coming from Him and having a special relationship with Him. And we describe the special uniqueness of Jesus' nature and origin using the word "Son".

Muslims see the word "son" as implying equality with God, so avoid using it. Also, they see the word "son" as implying that God must have a wife and reproduce sexually like a human (this is not taught in Christianity). So Muslims do not describe Jesus' uniqueness using the word "Son", as they see that as derogatory to God - but still recognise that uniqueness.

This difference is illustrated in S. 5. v 20: "Both the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of God, and His beloved". Say: "Why doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men, of the men he hath created...". This can be seen as a major theological disagreement, or just a difference in terminology, depending on how you look at it.

We have more in common in our understanding of Jesus than you might at first think, but we describe and act on it differently.

The primary difference is not whether we call him a "son", but whether we choose to be subject to him as Lord, as in Romans 10:9.

Thank you FollowingHim for reminding me.

These days I am in a business trip, and I am trying to take every chance to get back to the forum and read. I am very interested in learning about other religions since I was 16. When the Internet was available in Saudi Arabia back at 1996, I had so much curiosity to read about other cultures and religions. The first book written by non Muslim, discussing another religion, was about Christianity. From there, I developed my interest in comparative religion studies. I traveled to Thailand, China, Indonesia and India and studied the religions of East. I had also the opportunity to study the Bible with a well-educated pastor in Canada for six years.

Merry the mother of Jesus, blessings be upon them, is called Mariam in Arabic. There is one Sura in Quran called Mariam, talking about her, about her, about Zakaria the father go Yahya/John the baptist, and the born of Jesus (Allah's peace and blessings be upon them all).


Dear FollowingHim

I can't agree more with most of what you said.
In. fact, your words "Islam was to tear down false theology and traditions invented by man, such as idolatry, saint veneration and false legalism" can describe the Shahadah. Shahadah is the word to say when declare Islam:
"I bear witness there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah"

When the Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him was asked "With what has He sent you?
He said, "He sent me to strengthen the ties of kinship, to destroy idols so that Allah alone should be worshipped and nothing should be associated with Him".

I can say that Catholicism is very close from being idolatrous, but I am not sure if I can say that Catholics, JW, Protestants, Baptists, Mormons ..etc are not Christians. I know they are all devoted to the Bible, and during my studying and working in Canada and Europe, I met many Christians from different sects, they all love the God and Jesus, and respect and follow the Bible teachings too. But you know, devotions does not mean you are right, and teachings can be interpreted in different ways.

The concept of "God's Son" is a term popular in Roman and other Idolatry cultures. That why I believe the idea has transmitted to Christianity. While some Christians believe Jesus is literally God's son, many do not. Correct me if I am wrong, the following is a list of Christians beliefs in Jesus:

1- Jesus is not God, nor Son of God, and he did not claim to be a God or His son, and he is a messenger no more. Such as unitarian church, and Arianism.
2- Jesus is the son of God, but he is not God.
3- Jesus is the son of God, but he is a God.
4- Jesus is the son of God, and he is the God.

Muslims, and I believe Jews and many other religions who believe in the Bible such as Mandaeism, agree with the belief mentions in number 1.
Those who believe Jesus is the son of God, but he is not God, they believe that there is no God should be but one, but Jesus is his son, either a) literally, or to b) describe his uniqueness as you said. If it is b, then the gap is shrinking.

I believe saying that God have a son will have different implications, look at Catholic for example. That is why Allah in Quran respond to those who say we are the sons of God, by saying you are only human beings from those whom I created.
Let me ask you, can a son of man be animal? or the son of a horse is monkey? Of course not, so to glorify the Almighty, we should draw a line between the Creator and the Creation.

The Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him on his last days was worried about being elevated to be equal to God, so he clearly was telling his follower:
1- Do not say I am the lord, nor a lord, the lord is Allah only.
2- I am a slave, call me the slave of God and his messenger.
3- No one will enter the heaven by his deeds, even me, unless Allah has his mercy on me.
You can find tens of Hadehts saying the same thing, and I believe Eisa/Jesus, blessings upon him, was doing the same thing. I do not believe that he calls him self by the son of God. I believe that most of these terms come from wrong translations. Here is one good example:

The Prophet Mohammed blessings upon him, says:
"الخلق عيال الله"
If you translate it word by word, you get this meaning:
" The creations are God's children"
But this is wrong, because عيال means:
1- Children
2- Dependants

I will give you another good example from the Bible how the word "Slave" translated into "Son".
See Acts 3:26 in both King James and New King James.
By the way, I think even servant is not the right term, the right term is "slave". If you read the Hebrew bible, you will find the word slave is written "עֶבֶד" pronounce "Ebed" and it is very similar to the Arabic word "A'abed" which means slave. But through the English Bible, the word is translated as "Servant".
Of course, Slave does not equal to Servant, but I mention this because in Greek language, the word "son" and "servant" uses the same word which is "pais"
Check this little research: http://storage.cloversites.com/newtestamentbaptistchurch/documents/Servant or Son.pdf

It worthy mentioning that "Holy Spirit" in Quran, it refers to the angle Gabriel, peace be upon him. Angle Gabriel was the one who delivered the message to the Prophet Mohammed peace and blessings be upon him and all prophets.