BiblicalGenderRoles posted a very good post about modesty. In the second slide, he states it is up to the father or husband what their wife or daughter will wear. I don't disagree, but I have been acting under the impression the woman's conscience is the first determination and then her "head". He argued that her "head" overrules her conscience. What do you all think? Not in the context of modesty only. But in general.
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The Wife's Conscience vs. Husband's Will
- Thread starter NS4Liberty
- Start date
The debating/commenting on this issue of how women are dressing (i.e. "modesty") and consequently men look (i.e. lust) is very common. And men are frequently guilted-out and shamed by those who have an erroneous understanding of Matthew 5:28. However, there is very little posted on social media regarding men's appearance and women looking/lusting. Is this a concern to anyone?
Why I ask is because it has come to my attention in the last few days that a video that was recently posted on a social media site includes a section with an interview of me. As a result one of my wives is now receiving comments and questions from women, many of whom I know to be married. In another situation, I accompanied one of my wives into a bank yesterday and, unbeknown to me, she fielded questions about me from her female (married) friend who is the manager. When she told me about this and the messages she has received about the video, I discovered this sort of thing is nothing new. Apparently it's not at all uncommon for women, both married and single, to be interested in men and discuss it amongst themselves, sometimes in intimate detail.
So, why then is the situation of women looking at men not discussed? Why are women not guilted-out or shamed for looking and lusting? Is there a double standard? Why aren't men lambasted for dressing inappropriately and attracting a woman's gaze?
This is somewhat tongue-in-cheek but I am concerned about married women having inappropriate interest in a man other than her husband.
I will tell you a little secret. When women are talking alone all topics eventually become: men, sex and children. Nothing strange you are topic. Maybe you get married again in next few months thanks to raised interest.
Regarding modesty.
In all societies there are people with Mao tendencies (must control others). And female modesty is such easy ground to fullfil their pshycological control needs.
I hesitate to get into a dichotomous argument about who primarily determines the modesty of an individual woman, but I'm reminded of an earlier thread in which @windblown and I pretty much nailed the whole 'modesty' question by noting in our own ways that modesty is even more of an attitude issue than it is one of dress. Proper modesty essentially includes a woman not presenting an attitude of availability. A thoroughly unavailable woman could almost dress almost any way she pleased, whereas another woman could wear 10 prairie dresses to her ankles, wrists and neck but communicate availability quite effectively just with the way she makes eye contact or sways her hips in differential manners dependent on the particular men she encounters.
Sure lets make up new rules!
The verses in 1 Timothy, I believe, is talking about not showy, expensive, or flashy to draw attention to one’s self. Not long and flowing, as most people today would use modest.
Consider a modest home is one which is basic and not large and grandeur.
This doesn’t mean tight vs non-tight clothes, it simply means showy vs non showy, as you read the rest of the verse.
Consider a modest home is one which is basic and not large and grandeur.
This doesn’t mean tight vs non-tight clothes, it simply means showy vs non showy, as you read the rest of the verse.
I can see there are divided opinions. We me, hubby, sis-wife seem to believe in apporpriate dress for the occasion- with a little more emphasis on us 'gals' making sure we take the time to look after ourselves and look very presentable for whatever occasion. I think if I dressed unusually- which may be thought as 'modest' in some places, it would make me less approachable, and it would make me feel a little sad. None of us want that.
I think if all you have to do to make it lingerie is by stitching a little lace on it, I can see your pelvic bone and private parts perfectly, or you have to put on nipple covers to make it "modest," you probably shouldn't be wearing it in public.
Now I don't know a lot, but what I do know is by sad experience. I have leaned both ways on the scale of modesty but never fully tipping into either. And after a lot of chastening by God or losing nice clothes (that would have been useful for me or my sisters) by prudery, I have concluded that modesty is probably more of a middle ground. A woman should strive to be modest meaning she shouldn't be trying to show things off. From my experience that means I cover breasts to most of the thigh and not wear things that are really tight. A girl can look classy and something can fit her form nicely without it being rigidly stuck to her body.
Now I'm not going to tell every girl what they should or shouldn't wear, but I will say that God has protected me more when I have striven to be a little more modest.
I don't know everything as I feel like a lot of old paintings with naked girls are beautiful and most guys who look at them have not made me uncomfortable. But when guys convince their girlfriends at school to send them nudes well you know it's wrong, intrinsically. So I can't say I fully understand all of the lines or why, but it is something I want to understand. Maybe if we just lived in a more moral society things would be a bit different, but reading Paul maybe not, I don't know.
Honestly girls are not like boys. Random men condemning girls is bad bad bad. However wives and daughters need the head of the home to teach them about modesty and those men that don't, are slack in their duties. Most teenage girls I knew growing up did not connect kissing with sex, or having a boy think they are "sexy" with anything more than they think the girl is pretty and maybe wants to kiss her on the lips. The girls who did have more of an idea developed earlier or had sleep-around-mums. In other words girls growing up do not naturally understand the importance of covering themselves other than the fact that wearing such and such (bikinis, tankinis, skinny skinny jeans, tight tight dresses, etc.) makes them feel uncomfortable and they don't like the way guys look at them wearing it, but it's in fashion and looks good so they'll grow accustomed to it. All of my friends except maybe one made that complaint when buying their first bikini, and the more decent girls wore something to cover up the first few times.
Another note, pretty much every girl I have met tries to dress more decently in front of a guy they feel is a good person. They naturally want to dress more decently and classily.
Now I don't know a lot, but what I do know is by sad experience. I have leaned both ways on the scale of modesty but never fully tipping into either. And after a lot of chastening by God or losing nice clothes (that would have been useful for me or my sisters) by prudery, I have concluded that modesty is probably more of a middle ground. A woman should strive to be modest meaning she shouldn't be trying to show things off. From my experience that means I cover breasts to most of the thigh and not wear things that are really tight. A girl can look classy and something can fit her form nicely without it being rigidly stuck to her body.
Now I'm not going to tell every girl what they should or shouldn't wear, but I will say that God has protected me more when I have striven to be a little more modest.
I don't know everything as I feel like a lot of old paintings with naked girls are beautiful and most guys who look at them have not made me uncomfortable. But when guys convince their girlfriends at school to send them nudes well you know it's wrong, intrinsically. So I can't say I fully understand all of the lines or why, but it is something I want to understand. Maybe if we just lived in a more moral society things would be a bit different, but reading Paul maybe not, I don't know.
Honestly girls are not like boys. Random men condemning girls is bad bad bad. However wives and daughters need the head of the home to teach them about modesty and those men that don't, are slack in their duties. Most teenage girls I knew growing up did not connect kissing with sex, or having a boy think they are "sexy" with anything more than they think the girl is pretty and maybe wants to kiss her on the lips. The girls who did have more of an idea developed earlier or had sleep-around-mums. In other words girls growing up do not naturally understand the importance of covering themselves other than the fact that wearing such and such (bikinis, tankinis, skinny skinny jeans, tight tight dresses, etc.) makes them feel uncomfortable and they don't like the way guys look at them wearing it, but it's in fashion and looks good so they'll grow accustomed to it. All of my friends except maybe one made that complaint when buying their first bikini, and the more decent girls wore something to cover up the first few times.
Another note, pretty much every girl I have met tries to dress more decently in front of a guy they feel is a good person. They naturally want to dress more decently and classily.
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I don't know where you are meeting these girls, but they've probably been living an immoral life and need to repent of it or you are misunderstanding. Trust me your worry is for naught, in my whole 25 years of life and even talking with married women in their fourties chancing upon a guy naked is a horror story we will tell each other.
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I encounter them daily and they are not 'slutty' or living slutty lives. Trust me, I'm not worried. I'm guessing you live in a different culture hence the different understanding.
Forgive me, I meant no slight on good women. With all of your questions and implications it came off that the women you kept running into the last few days were crossing a serious moral line with what they were saying. Normal girl talk doesn't usually insight questions about why we are not shamed for lusting.
If you like I can edit my comment because I genuinely did not mean to slur good women.
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Do you meet then in different contexts?
In you meet them only in professional context, they may hide what they do in private very good.
Nah, you're good. If you look at my post, you'll see I made this comment...
It's not uncommon for women here (married or single) to discuss all sorts of private matters about men. There is a saying; "Old men sit and talk about the weather; old women sit and talk about old men." Well, here I've discovered it's not just old women who talk, but women of all ages who discuss intimate details about their men and things married women should not be considering. I'll give you an example from last week; a married woman was chatting with one of my wives and offered to make a baby with me. The following day she made the offer directly to me. She's serious! It's given both my wife and I the opportunity to teach this woman about the sin of adultery and the gospel of salvation.
From what I understand in your comments, this sort of thing would cause you a raised eyebrow or two.
You might meet them in all sorts of situations.
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Yup. I have never heard something like that before and I've moved around a lot. Roomed with people from all over Europe and Asia too (Cyprus, Germany, India, Myanmar, etc.) So it does come as a shock. But if that's the life they've grown up in and are accustomed to, I can see how that could happen.
It's really nice that you and your wives can help teach some of them about Christ and the gospel of Salvation.
My wife occasionally comments on attractive actors, but I am unable to comment on attractive actresses. Her reasoning is "men look at women differently than women look at men." She thinks men thinking a woman is attractive is thinking about sleeping with her, while women are not thinking sexually. She is very sensitive to "objectification" and I believe has bought into the lie of feminine moral superiority.
It's true, women think differently, we "lust" differently. Nothing really to do with moral superiority, the thought process is fairly consistent among most women, in most cultures.
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