The wisdom(?) of Friedrich Nietzsche

[FollowingHim]

To get an idea of a completely different perspective, I am gradually reading through "Thus Spake Zarathustra", by Friedrich Nietzsche. Nietzsche is about the most anti-Christian writer imaginable, and most of the book has no value to us. However I have noticed some very interesting points.

Nietzsche's basic points are
1) "God is dead" (by which he means that gods are human inventions, and when you realise this you abandon them, and realise there is no god at all).
2) Morality also is an invention of man. What is good and evil is whatever we decide is good and evil.
3) Mankind is evolving, and has no purpose other than to create the next, greater step in evolution, which Nietzsche names the "Superman". His whole goal is to find the Superman. This was written in the 1880s, so will have influenced both the "Superman" comics and Hitler's ideas.

His basic message is that people should abandon religion and any externally imposed instructions of how you should live your life, and simply find within yourself what you believe is virtuous and do that, whatever it is. He is therefore completely and consistently individualistic.

And then he comes out with this gem:

THE NEW IDOL.
Somewhere there are still peoples and herds, but not with us, my brethren: here there are states.

A state? What is that? Well! open now your ears unto me, for now will I say unto you my word concerning the death of peoples.

A state, is called the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly lieth it also; and this lie creepeth from its mouth: “I, the state, am the people.”

It is a lie! Creators were they who created peoples, and hung a faith and a love over them: thus they served life.

Destroyers, are they who lay snares for many, and call it the state: they hang a sword and a hundred cravings over them.

Where there is still a people, there the state is not understood, but hated as the evil eye, and as sin against laws and customs.

This sign I give unto you: every people speaketh its language of good and evil: this its neighbour understandeth not. Its language hath it devised for itself in laws and customs.

But the state lieth in all languages of good and evil; and whatever it saith it lieth; and whatever it hath it hath stolen.

False is everything in it; with stolen teeth it biteth, the biting one. False are even its bowels.

Confusion of language of good and evil; this sign I give unto you as the sign of the state. Verily, the will to death, indicateth this sign! Verily, it beckoneth unto the preachers of death!

Many too many are born: for the superfluous ones was the state devised!

See just how it enticeth them to it, the many-too-many! How it swalloweth and cheweth and recheweth them!

“On earth there is nothing greater than I: it is I who am the regulating finger of God”—thus roareth the monster. And not only the long-eared and short-sighted fall upon their knees!

Ah! even in your ears, ye great souls, it whispereth its gloomy lies! Ah! it findeth out the rich hearts which willingly lavish themselves!

Yea, it findeth you out too, ye conquerors of the old God! Weary ye became of the conflict, and now your weariness serveth the new idol!

Heroes and honourable ones, it would fain set up around it, the new idol! Gladly it basketh in the sunshine of good consciences,—the cold monster!

Everything will it give YOU, if YE worship it, the new idol: thus it purchaseth the lustre of your virtue, and the glance of your proud eyes.

It seeketh to allure by means of you, the many-too-many! Yea, a hellish artifice hath here been devised, a death-horse jingling with the trappings of divine honours!

Yea, a dying for many hath here been devised, which glorifieth itself as life: verily, a hearty service unto all preachers of death!

The state, I call it, where all are poison-drinkers, the good and the bad: the state, where all lose themselves, the good and the bad: the state, where the slow suicide of all—is called “life.”

Just see these superfluous ones! They steal the works of the inventors and the treasures of the wise. Culture, they call their theft—and everything becometh sickness and trouble unto them!

Just see these superfluous ones! Sick are they always; they vomit their bile and call it a newspaper. They devour one another, and cannot even digest themselves.

Just see these superfluous ones! Wealth they acquire and become poorer thereby. Power they seek for, and above all, the lever of power, much money—these impotent ones!

See them clamber, these nimble apes! They clamber over one another, and thus scuffle into the mud and the abyss.

Towards the throne they all strive: it is their madness—as if happiness sat on the throne! Ofttimes sitteth filth on the throne.—and ofttimes also the throne on filth.

Madmen they all seem to me, and clambering apes, and too eager. Badly smelleth their idol to me, the cold monster: badly they all smell to me, these idolaters.

My brethren, will ye suffocate in the fumes of their maws and appetites! Better break the windows and jump into the open air!

Do go out of the way of the bad odour! Withdraw from the idolatry of the superfluous!

Do go out of the way of the bad odour! Withdraw from the steam of these human sacrifices!

Open still remaineth the earth for great souls. Empty are still many sites for lone ones and twain ones, around which floateth the odour of tranquil seas.

Open still remaineth a free life for great souls. Verily, he who possesseth little is so much the less possessed: blessed be moderate poverty!

There, where the state ceaseth—there only commenceth the man who is not superfluous: there commenceth the song of the necessary ones, the single and irreplaceable melody.

There, where the state CEASETH—pray look thither, my brethren! Do ye not see it, the rainbow and the bridges of the Superman?—

Thus spake Zarathustra.

He sees very clearly that the State is a religion. It is a false god, a "new idol". And it is supported by people who think they are atheists. But they are not, they have just abandoned one god to adopt another, one of their own creation: "Yea, it findeth you out too, ye conquerors of the old God! Weary ye became of the conflict, and now your weariness serveth the new idol! ... Everything will it give YOU, if YE worship it, the new idol:"

He sees that the State's fundamental lie is “I, the state, am the people.” This is very true. The State claims to be a "nation" - but a nation is a people group. Scripturally, nations are tribes, ethnicities, people who are naturally bound together by family ties. The State seeks intentionally to replace these natural groupings with itself, to make everyone patriotic towards the State instead of patriotic towards their people.

He sees that the State is cruel and oppressive, and uses harsher language against it than he uses against any religion. He seems to view traditional religion as silly, but the State as truly dangerous: "A state, is called the coldest of all cold monsters. ... Destroyers, are they who lay snares for many, and call it the state: they hang a sword and a hundred cravings over them. ... But the state lieth in all languages of good and evil; and whatever it saith it lieth; and whatever it hath it hath stolen. False is everything in it; with stolen teeth it biteth, the biting one. False are even its bowels."

And a couple of other interesting quotes:
"Confusion of language of good and evil; this sign I give unto you as the sign of the state."
"the state, where the slow suicide of all—is called “life.” "

I find this fascinating because Nietzsche is the atheist's atheist. Yet, from the inside of atheism itself, using purely atheistic logic, he tears apart the very idea of an atheistic state.

 

[FollowingHim]

On a completely different note, he's no feminist!

Far too long hath there been a slave and a tyrant concealed in woman. On that account woman is not yet capable of friendship: she knoweth only love.
In woman’s love there is injustice and blindness to all she doth not love. And even in woman’s conscious love, there is still always surprise and lightning and night, along with the light.
As yet woman is not capable of friendship: women are still cats, and birds. Or at the best, cows.
As yet woman is not capable of friendship. But tell me, ye men, who of you are capable of friendship?

 

[FollowingHim]

In fact, he's probably more patriarchal than the vast majority of us. Again this is interesting, because although he goes too far in his statements against women, he does notice many fundamental points about the differences between the natures of men and women, and concludes that the natural, most functional role, where both men and women will be happy, is for the man to be in charge and the woman to obey him.

OLD AND YOUNG WOMEN.
“Why stealest thou along so furtively in the twilight, Zarathustra? And what hidest thou so carefully under thy mantle?

Is it a treasure that hath been given thee? Or a child that hath been born thee? Or goest thou thyself on a thief’s errand, thou friend of the evil?”—

Verily, my brother, said Zarathustra, it is a treasure that hath been given me: it is a little truth which I carry.

But it is naughty, like a young child; and if I hold not its mouth, it screameth too loudly.

As I went on my way alone to-day, at the hour when the sun declineth, there met me an old woman, and she spake thus unto my soul:

“Much hath Zarathustra spoken also to us women, but never spake he unto us concerning woman.”

And I answered her: “Concerning woman, one should only talk unto men.”

“Talk also unto me of woman,” said she; “I am old enough to forget it presently.”

And I obliged the old woman and spake thus unto her:

Everything in woman is a riddle, and everything in woman hath one solution—it is called pregnancy.

Man is for woman a means: the purpose is always the child. But what is woman for man?

Two different things wanteth the true man: danger and diversion. Therefore wanteth he woman, as the most dangerous plaything.

Man shall be trained for war, and woman for the recreation of the warrior: all else is folly.

Too sweet fruits—these the warrior liketh not. Therefore liketh he woman;—bitter is even the sweetest woman.

Better than man doth woman understand children, but man is more childish than woman.

In the true man there is a child hidden: it wanteth to play. Up then, ye women, and discover the child in man!

A plaything let woman be, pure and fine like the precious stone, illumined with the virtues of a world not yet come.

Let the beam of a star shine in your love! Let your hope say: “May I bear the Superman!”

In your love let there be valour! With your love shall ye assail him who inspireth you with fear!

In your love be your honour! Little doth woman understand otherwise about honour. But let this be your honour: always to love more than ye are loved, and never be the second.

Let man fear woman when she loveth: then maketh she every sacrifice, and everything else she regardeth as worthless.

Let man fear woman when she hateth: for man in his innermost soul is merely evil; woman, however, is mean.

Whom hateth woman most?—Thus spake the iron to the loadstone: “I hate thee most, because thou attractest, but art too weak to draw unto thee.”

The happiness of man is, “I will.” The happiness of woman is, “He will.”

“Lo! now hath the world become perfect!”—thus thinketh every woman when she obeyeth with all her love.

Obey, must the woman, and find a depth for her surface. Surface, is woman’s soul, a mobile, stormy film on shallow water.

Man’s soul, however, is deep, its current gusheth in subterranean caverns: woman surmiseth its force, but comprehendeth it not.—

Then answered me the old woman: “Many fine things hath Zarathustra said, especially for those who are young enough for them.

Strange! Zarathustra knoweth little about woman, and yet he is right about them! Doth this happen, because with women nothing is impossible?

And now accept a little truth by way of thanks! I am old enough for it!

Swaddle it up and hold its mouth: otherwise it will scream too loudly, the little truth.”

“Give me, woman, thy little truth!” said I. And thus spake the old woman:

“Thou goest to women? Do not forget thy whip!”—

Thus spake Zarathustra.

"Everything in woman is a riddle, and everything in woman hath one solution—it is called pregnancy."

But you can read the whole quote yourselves to find what the "little truth" is that he is carrying so secretly...

 

[The Revolting Man]

Neitchze was very influential. We can lay much evil at his feet. I appreciate these quotes. A lot of what he says is true.

 

[Joleneakamama]

He describes mystery Babylon very well. Words can mean different things, or rather give a different impression to different minds, but when one considers the substance of what is described you can make the connection to the biblical terminology.

Ish recently mentioned his gift is related to his scholarship. My gift may be memory related, and the ability to put things together. (A relative just said this week that I am like talking to an encyclopedia)

I know Zec hates me making the Edomite Jew connection, and Pete doesn't want to discuss which group may be those revelation mentions claiming to be Jews, which claim is said to be blasphemous. Ish has previously ignored questions I hoped he would answer about scriptural conflicts, as in verses that make the Zionists claims about the state of Israel totally false.

So here I stand until someone can bring scriptural prophetic SUBSTANCE that is stronger then what I/we have supporting our beliefs.
My hubby would post more, but like Ish just gets tired of repeatedly going over stuff with people, and has better things to do then just argue.

When people are willing to judge by fruit then they can separate the secular anti messiah jews from the messianic. Those who are the Edomite imposter destroyers that hate the real Israelites with a perpetual hatred, from the Israelites that are now called Christians.

Knee jerk getting offended without defining terms and considering the substance = endless fruitless arguing.

Eugenics is biblical. YHWH has in the past judged nations and had His people eliminate them. But we don't want to see believers be victims of Bill Gates and his likes (Hitler?) eugenics programs.

Kinda like I am GREAT with capital punishment, IF we are using YHWH's Law and standards for ministering it. But I don't want to see a single soul in a man made prison because of man/state made laws.

Gotta run. Lots to do. I love the food for thought and faith that this forum provides. Thank you!!

 

[rockfox]

"As yet woman is not capable of friendship"....This has been widely noticed in the observation of women's difficulty having male friendships without romantic entanglements. Or their often untoward treatment of women friends. Exceptions of course, but common enough. It's not considered polite to notice this but ask a woman who prefers male friends and you'll get an ear full about it.

"Far too long hath there been a slave and a tyrant concealed in woman"...women have many such contradictions.

"He sees very clearly that the State is a religion" ... What are our holidays? They remember presidents, political movements, politicians, victory in war. The word holiday is derived from holy day. As many ya'll know better than most, setting aside a day from work is a form of worship. Hence most in America worship the state. Even Christians. You can see this also in their common appeal to the state to fix our problems.

"Better than man doth woman understand children, but man is more childish than woman."... I see lots of this, but also much of the opposite. For a good familial head, this will not be true. What is different though is desire; most men are content to leave child raising to women. Which is good to a certain age.

And now accept a little truth by way of thanks! I am old enough for it!

Swaddle it up and hold its mouth: otherwise it will scream too loudly, the little truth.”

“Give me, woman, thy little truth!” said I. And thus spake the old woman:

“Thou goest to women? Do not forget thy whip!”—

Which reminds me...

 

[FollowingHim]

@Joleneakamama, let's not jump straight to the most controversial and divisive topics that could possibly be imagined when I bring up Nietzsche.

Eugenics is biblical. YHWH has in the past judged nations and had His people eliminate them. But we don't want to see believers be victims of Bill Gates and his likes (Hitler?) eugenics programs.

That statement is very, very easily misunderstood as it is badly worded. I get where you're coming from, in that scripture does talk about the Israelites being told to entirely wipe out certain people groups. But summarising that by saying "Eugenics is biblical" is very problematic, because "eugenics" in the modern understanding is a completely different matter. In scripture, cleaning of one land, at one time, was ordered by God, and He had His reasons - but they were not entirely ethnic. He was wiping out people who did not follow Him, to make way for a nation who did (or were supposed to). Importantly, they were not superior genetically, just chosen even though they did not deserve it for any natural reason. But modern eugenics is the idea that some people are inherently superior to others for physical reasons, and it is just for the inferior to be wiped out by the superior to ensure the advancement of evolution. This is a very different matter.

Furthermore, I don't see the relationship to anything I had posted - unless you are assuming that Nietzsche was a supporter of Nazism. The Nazis claimed that, after his death, but given that during his own lifetime he was a great inspiration for the founders of secular Zionism, including Herzl, that is a severe mischaracterisation. His view that nations are peoples, not states, is parallel to all ethnic movements including both Nazism and Zionism. That doesn't automatically mean we have to immediately jump to discussing eugenics...

Nor do I see the relationship of the following quote, which is the bulk of your comment. This seems to be a rant against somehthing random and unrelated to this discussion - it may be related in your mind, but you have not drawn the connection for us.

I know Zec hates me making the Edomite Jew connection, and Pete doesn't want to discuss which group may be those revelation mentions claiming to be Jews, which claim is said to be blasphemous. Ish has previously ignored questions I hoped he would answer about scriptural conflicts, as in verses that make the Zionists claims about the state of Israel totally false.

So here I stand until someone can bring scriptural prophetic SUBSTANCE that is stronger then what I/we have supporting our beliefs.
My hubby would post more, but like Ish just gets tired of repeatedly going over stuff with people, and has better things to do then just argue.

When people are willing to judge by fruit then they can separate the secular anti messiah jews from the messianic. Those who are the Edomite imposter destroyers that hate the real Israelites with a perpetual hatred, from the Israelites that are now called Christians.

Knee jerk getting offended without defining terms and considering the substance = endless fruitless arguing.

Everyone, please stick to discussing either what I have shared of his actual words, or other words of his that you wish to cite from elsewhere, and refrain from unnecessary controversy. The point of this thread is to simply share some food for thought, which each reader can digest as they see fit.

 

[Joleneakamama]

@Joleneakamama, let's not jump straight to the most controversial and divisive topics that could possibly be imagined when I bring up Nietzsche.

That statement is very, very easily misunderstood as it is badly worded. I get where you're coming from, in that scripture does talk about the Israelites being told to entirely wipe out certain people groups. But summarising that by saying "Eugenics is biblical" is very problematic, because "eugenics" in the modern understanding is a completely different matter. In scripture, cleaning of one land, at one time, was ordered by God, and He had His reasons - but they were not entirely ethnic. He was wiping out people who did not follow Him, to make way for a nation who did (or were supposed to). Importantly, they were not superior genetically, just chosen even though they did not deserve it for any natural reason. But modern eugenics is the idea that some people are inherently superior to others for physical reasons, and it is just for the inferior to be wiped out by the superior to ensure the advancement of evolution. This is a very different matter.

Furthermore, I don't see the relationship to anything I had posted. Nor do I see the relationship of the following quote, which is the bulk of your comment. This seems to be a rant against somehthing random and unrelated to this discussion - it may be related in your mind, but you have not drawn the connection for us.

Everyone, please stick to discussing either what I have shared of his actual words, or other words of his that you wish to cite from elsewhere, and refrain from unnecessary controversy. The point of this thread is to simply share some food for thought, which each reader can digest as they see fit.

My apologies. In a world full of conflicting information articulate and concise communication is not my strong point. Thank you for pointing that out.