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We can help her - but why have sex with her?

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FollowingHim

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This is intended for the FAQ, but I'd like some feedback on it first so I can improve it. Men - is this how you think too? Women - would this be helpful for you if you struggle or have struggled with this question?

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A man is keen on plural marriage. His wife is not. But then he realises that there is a really "noble" reason to become a polygamist:

Husband: "You know we could really help out a woman with this. Maybe there's a single mother out there that could really do with some help. I could marry her, be a father to her children, support her practically. See, polygamy is a good idea!"

Wife: "Sure, we can help her, but why do you need to have sex with her?"

It's a very common conversation.

In reality, a man wants an additional wife for essentially three key reasons, all at the same time. He's just picked the one that sounds best in order to persuade his wife. He wants an additional wife:
1) For him. He wants more sex, and he wants the additional support and companionship of another woman. If he knows her he might already have fallen in love... :-D
2) For his current wife. He can see the difficulties she has in her life and believes a sister-wife would be a great help for her.
3) For his new wife. He realises she will also have difficulties in her life that he may be able to help her with.

His wife may be quite happy with the third reason, which sounds quite noble. She might also see some benefits in the second. But she is against polygamy because she doesn't like the first - she does not want him having sex with anybody else, and finds it insulting and upsetting that he thinks she isn't "good enough".

However long the husband argues that he could help another woman through this, his wife will never agree it's a good idea, because he isn't addressing the key thing that she's really thinking about: him having sex with another woman.

Marriage, as opposed to the occasional food parcel and help with odd jobs, gives a woman:
- Love
- Security. Help comes and goes, but a husband is there for good.
- Quality time. She cannot relax in the company of a married man who is not her husband, she'd be constantly tense, not wanting to act inappropriately. She can relax with a husband and enjoy his company and assistance without reservations.
- Intimacy. Everybody needs intimacy, women as much as men.

However the first wife must first come to understand that it is acceptable for a man to have more than one wife, and within that framework to have sex with more than one woman, before she will be willing to accept the idea of marriage to help another.
- The husband needs to be honest with her that a large part of the reason he wants to marry another woman is for more sex - she knows this already, if he won't admit it she just won't trust him.
- The wife needs to realise that her husband can love another woman, and desire her for both companionship and sex, without detracting from his love for her. And the husband needs to show her how much he loves her, to help her to realise this.
 
There are a couple of things missing here...

"Traditional Marriage" says romantic love precedes marriage.
In Biblical Marriage love proceeds from marriage. After all, the husband is under command to love his wife, and any feelings of love flow from that.

Everything we do should glorify God. The question then is, as with all activity, how does this glorify God? Can this be left out of such an equation? It is a hard question, but one worth answering.
 
I think one other possibility would be companionship in similar activities. For example, some husbands and wives have very divergent interests that they are passionate about. If a man has one that he is particularly passionate about and would love for his wife to be his companion in it but she is not interested, then it could cause conflict. The reverse situation is also true. Another wife with similar interests may be able to be the companionship that one or both current spouses may find missing even though they very much love each other.
 
there is a family dynamic that will be forever missing if intimacy is excluded.

been there, done that with a friend and she never felt like she was anything more than an outsider even though we told her that we were comitted to her for the rest of our lives.
it is silly to expect her to feel that she is truly part of the family when she is excluded from the blessing (and spiritual aspects) of intimacy.
 
agree with Steve on intimacy

Say, I've been thinking more on this throughout the day. I would like some thoughts from the "elders" on the forum. Sex may be number 1 when younger but as one ages I wonder if that begins to move down the ranks somewhat. Studies have shown that as men age they become more relationship oriented and the desire for sex while still there certainly decreases. Therefore, I posit that in younger men it's likely more sex oriented in nature but as one ages it becomes more about companionship and other things.
Let's be honest, sex actually consumes a very small percentage of our time, probably less than 3%. That leaves a whole lot of time for communication, companionship and many other things. So, having sex as number 1 may not be an accurate statement of reality though it may reflect unrealistic expectations... Let's be honest, I remember being a newlywed who thought there would be lots and lots of sex... Was a bit unrealistic. :)
 
I have often found it useful when dealing with such questions to reverse it and ask "Why not?"

Obviously, the person asking is the one with an axe to grind. Let them attempt to do so.
 
Mark thanks for posting, it's good to see another side. And after some more thought prompted by what you said, I now even further push for moving sex down the list. :) Why? Well, if sex is the man's primary reason for PM then it would seem to me that any marriage with that as the primary driver for existence will not be long or healthy.

Quality sex is a result of having a quality relationship, quality intimacy. I personally am not just interested in sex because frankly, as I think I saw posted somewhere else in one of the forums here or elsewhere, it may be far cheaper to find a prostitute. What takes more time and commitment, a marriage or a prostitute... :) For those who want to seek PM I don't believe that it can be primarily about more sex... Is that part of the deal, certainly.
 
I'm pleased with the discussion here, and it is fascinating to see the different thoughts on this matter. Clearly all men are different, and this post needs to be broader in focus. Thanks Mark for your openness.

Please also note that I did not rank these reasons to get another wife in order of importance - clearly caring for others is far more important than sex. I ranked them in order of what I felt would be most pressing in the mind of a man, from my perspective - and clearly this ranking is not universal, so it is probably best to remove the numbering here.

My perspective on this issue is that I am not naturally generous, it is something I have to work on. So helping another woman comes in as number 3 - I know it's a great thing to do, and once I meet her I'll want to do it, but right now it's head-knowledge rather than a passion. Helping my wife comes in as number 2 - I already know her, love her dearly and therefore rank helping her ahead of helping some mysterious future woman. I believe that if I meet another woman that God is giving me, and see her needs, God will cause them to be both equal in my mind and I will be equally motivated to help both. However my naturally selfish human nature is to want things for myself, and so the benefits to myself (wrongly, but honestly) rank first in my consideration from an emotional point of view.

I believe that God has designed our desires very carefully to ensure that they result in His daughters being cared for. The desire of a man for companionship and sex is Godly, as through it God is able to take a selfish man and make him care so deeply for a woman that he takes her into his home, and commits to support and love her for the rest of his life.

Technically, nobody needs sex, plenty of men get by being celibate. However once I met my wife, I didn't just want to have her as a friend I talked to occasionally - I wanted to take her into my home and support her all her life, and the most "pressing" (for want of a better word) part of this desire was sexual. Nothing wrong with that, God wanted me to take care of her so He made her so hot I couldn't let her get away! ;)

Mark, although right now you want to help other women through generosity, I am sure that if God brings one into your life He will also stimulate this desire in your mind to ensure you don't let her go!
 
On further thought, I think the focus of the proposed article is wrong. It should focus primarily on the advantages of marriage over other help, then discuss the motivation of the man & the sex issue.

Are there any further advantages of marriage for a single lady that I should add to this list?
 
FollowingHim said:
I believe that God has designed our desires very carefully to ensure that they result in His daughters being cared for. The desire of a man for companionship and sex is Godly, as through it God is able to take a selfish man and make him care so deeply for a woman that he takes her into his home, and commits to support and love her for the rest of his life.

I think it is a good idea to not generalise too often when it comes to the matter of libido. Not every man continues with the same libido level as they had as teenagers. I know a low libido man who doesn't even satisfy one wife, poor woman is terribly frustrated but I am quite sure you would all be horrified at her taking up Polyandry on that basis!
I know a high libido man who lived with his wife and his wife's best friend for quite a while and he enjoyed having her around but did not want to be intimate with her because he was not sexually attracted to her, he felt very positive about helping her out in her time of need though. People are very individual but there is a social habit to over emphasise the male libido and under emphasise the female libido.

B
 
This thread illustrates that there are two reasons men come into this movement. One is God centered, and the other is self centered. Some are sheep, but others are just wearing sheep skin. Are we emphasizing the flesh, or do we desire to glorify God? Shall we examine ourselves?
 
Examine ourselves all we like. Be Godly all we like. ...

If sex is not involved, it isn't a permanent marriage. It is something else.

You can hire a book-keeper, a babysitter, a house-keeper, a business partner. You can even hire a friend. Kinda expensive. We call 'em therapists. Though I guess you can also hire a personal assistant and traveling companion.

While having sex isn't all that there is to the equation of getting married, (I disagree with Tom Shipley,) it does seem to be the dividing line between any other relationship and one which creates a bond not to be taken lightly -- even when with a prostitute.

So ultimately, I have to answer the original question by observing that James 1:26 isn't urging men to meet her lack of firewood, groceries, utilities, rent, transportation, clothing, etc. It urges men to step up and relieve her need of a husband, and her child's need of a father. Only a married woman would raise the original question, and is validly answered only by asking, "Why not?" and "Are you offering to forego it yourself?" (If the answer to the latter is yes, then you've got larger issues to fix!)
 
how should the "church" (aren't we the church?) take care of widows and otherwise unmarried women?
communally.
except;


1Ti 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, ........

1Ti 5:11 But the younger widows refuse: .............................

1Ti 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

does that leave any room for opinions?
and also, given the math, does that leave any room for a non-poly attitude? (i am speaking corporately, each family must decide on their own what is best for their family)
 
FollowingHim said:
This is intended for the FAQ, but I'd like some feedback on it first so I can improve it. Men - is this how you think too? Women - would this be helpful for you if you struggle or have struggled with this question?

-----------------

A man is keen on plural marriage. His wife is not. But then he realises that there is a really "noble" reason to become a polygamist:

Husband: "You know we could really help out a woman with this. Maybe there's a single mother out there that could really do with some help. I could marry her, be a father to her children, support her practically. See, polygamy is a good idea!"

Wife: "Sure, we can help her, but why do you need to have sex with her?"

It's a very common conversation.

In reality, a man wants an additional wife for essentially three key reasons, all at the same time. He's just picked the one that sounds best in order to persuade his wife. He wants an additional wife:
1) For him. He wants more sex, and he wants the additional support and companionship of another woman. If he knows her he might already have fallen in love... :-D
2) For his current wife. He can see the difficulties she has in her life and believes a sister-wife would be a great help for her.
3) For his new wife. He realises she will also have difficulties in her life that he may be able to help her with.

His wife may be quite happy with the third reason, which sounds quite noble. She might also see some benefits in the second. But she is against polygamy because she doesn't like the first - she does not want him having sex with anybody else, and finds it insulting and upsetting that he thinks she isn't "good enough".

However long the husband argues that he could help another woman through this, his wife will never agree it's a good idea, because he isn't addressing the key thing that she's really thinking about: him having sex with another woman.

Marriage, as opposed to the occasional food parcel and help with odd jobs, gives a woman:
- Love
- Security. Help comes and goes, but a husband is there for good.
- Quality time. She cannot relax in the company of a married man who is not her husband, she'd be constantly tense, not wanting to act inappropriately. She can relax with a husband and enjoy his company and assistance without reservations.
- Intimacy. Everybody needs intimacy, women as much as men.

However the first wife must first come to understand that it is acceptable for a man to have more than one wife, and within that framework to have sex with more than one woman, before she will be willing to accept the idea of marriage to help another.
- The husband needs to be honest with her that a large part of the reason he wants to marry another woman is for more sex - she knows this already, if he won't admit it she just won't trust him.
- The wife needs to realise that her husband can love another woman, and desire her for both companionship and sex, without detracting from his love for her. And the husband needs to show her how much he loves her, to help her to realise this.

When I first read this thread I thought that the only reason a husband mentioned to his wife for wanting polygamy was just so he can help out another woman. In my view, this is not a good move because it's likely that most woman will realize that that there's also going to be sex involved. So when they can read between the lines and figure that out and you didn't tell them that then that makes it seem like you're hiding something and a trust problem starts at that point. I'd rather start off with telling the wife all of the key reasons you want polygamy from the start and then you can go on persuading her. You really don't even have to mention the word sex, just mention that you believe it's okay to have multiple intimate relationships.
 
Thanks for all the excellent feedback. I too think it is very important to deal with the "fleshy" issues here, that's what the whole objection I'm addressing is about. Here's a second draft, how does this look?

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A man is keen on plural marriage. His wife is not. But then he realises that there is a really "noble" reason to become a polygamist:

Husband: "You know we could really help out a woman with this. Maybe there's a single mother out there who I could marry, be a father to her children, support her practically - See, polygamy is a good idea!"

Wife: "Sure, we can help her, but why do you need to have sex with her?"

It's a fairly common objection. So what benefits does marriage give a woman, compared to the odd food parcel and plumbing repairs?

Love. Ok, you can say you love her, but in marriage you can really show it.

Security. Help comes and goes, but a husband is there for good.

Quality time. She cannot relax in the company of a married man who is not her husband, she'd be constantly tense, not wanting to act inappropriately. She can relax with a husband and enjoy his company and assistance without reservations.

Intimacy. Everybody needs intimacy, women as much as men. It is common to understate the need of a woman for intimacy, and make it all about the man - in reality it goes both ways. The man in this situation can already get intimacy from his current wife, but the woman is alone, so she will actually benefit more from polygyny than the man will in terms of intimacy.

Children. Not all single women are already mothers, and even if they are...

It might help for a wife to say "would I be willing to give up marriage to just be supported practically by my husband?" - that will quickly show the great benefits of marriage to another woman.

But the objection here is not really about whether marriage would be better than practical help - that can be shown easily. The objection is an emotional one - the wife does not want her husband having sex with anybody else. However much you can argue that marriage is better for another woman too, that objection still remains. And it is a very difficult thing for a woman who has been raised in a monogamous culture to come to grips with.

The first wife must first come to understand that it is acceptable for a man to have more than one wife, and within that framework to have sex with more than one woman, before she will be willing to accept the idea of marriage to help another.
- The husband needs to be honest with her if at least part of the reason he wants to marry another woman is for more sex - she suspects this already, if he won't admit it she just won't trust him.
- The wife needs to realise that her husband can love another woman, and desire her for both companionship and sex, without detracting from his love for her. She needs to realise that this desire is not a personal insult to her, but just the natural way God has created a man's desires.
- The husband needs to lead his wife in studying the Bible, and also show her how much he loves her, to help her to understand and be comfortable with this.
 
Looks really good, Samuel.

If I were to tweak it any further, it would be to talk about the needed teaching a bit.

Her reluctance to "let" him have sex with another woman comes out of a mistaken sense of ownership. I would state it sympathetically, since as a westerner this is undoubtedly what she was raised to think. But since we are going to the Bible to let God's immutable word change us, it must be said. The key word is "mistaken".

Biblically, she DOES have ownership of his body in that she has a RIGHT of access for purposes of intimacy which he may not morally deny.

However, it is not an EXCLUSIVE right of access. Whether there is or is not a sister wife at the moment, by its nature this right is a SHARED right of access.

Once that mindset is aligned correctly, it becomes possible to focus on selecting another with whom to enjoy life and sharing, rather than focusing on an futile attempt to form a wall around the one who s supposed to form a wall around herself.
 
Personally, I believe the objection is about a husband sharing his heart with another more than sharing his body. Women often get over a husband having an affair but not having him "be in love" with another woman. I know that for my sw that was the issue. It was hard for her to get around the fact that her hubby actually shared his heart with another woman.

Just a thought.

SweetLissa
 
We heard in the story about the man's needs, and the needs of the potential wife, but there is still something missing. What about the word of God? Shouldn't this play a roll in the life of a believing wife?

just a thought...
 
sweetlissa said:
Personally, I believe the objection is about a husband sharing his heart with another more than sharing his body. Women often get over a husband having an affair but not having him "be in love" with another woman.

Sweetlissa, I believe you are 100% on target with your observation. The heart-sharing is the critical issue, the big hurdle, the often insurmountable height.

ylop
 
NeoPatriarch : What would you like to see added?

Regarding an earlier statement about the flesh, God created sex and said it was good. He placed in men the desire to want to be sexual with a woman and told us that the guidelines are: sex is to be had with your wife or an unmarried woman whom you take as your wife (personally, I recommend the first and not the latter). It would seem that the flesh then would be wanting to have sex with women who are married to someone else. I fail to see how it is fleshly to desire something that God created and called good. Please clarify if I misunderstood your point.
Thanks!
 
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