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We can help her?

sweetlissa said:
Steve,
My OP was about MOTIVATION and making excuses for marrying someone. I know people need each other. That is a natural part of any relationship. My intent was to get people to think about their motivation for marrying people. Someone else said it very well, that no one needs excuses to marry their first wife. Everyone just understands that people get married and they don't need an excuse.

I simply want people to be honest about why they want a second or other wife.

Just for giggles, have any of the people on the board married someone to "help her?" If so, how did that go?

SweetLissa
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I think I know the direction you were trying to go, it may have went a bit off the rails and seemed to be coming down hard on people who recognizance they have a need in others. That is not an easy conclusion to come to and it makes it a lot harder for those who have reached it if they feel people think they are weak once there.

But getting back to what I believe was your intent, I agree. Husbands should not use this as an excuse to marry someone. I have never seen taking either of my wives as a burden. I know what they have to offer, greatly exceeds any hardship. I see very little reason to even point out any hardship they cause other then when trying to mutually solve a problem. We have to remember, lifting ourselves up is not the same as pulling another down. The end result can sometimes feel the same because your on more of an equal playing field but the one is a positive while the other is a negative.
 
I think everyone has a fairly similar view here underneath it all, but when we try to translate feelings into words and then back to feelings in the reader's mind a lot can get lost in translation.

There are many reasons to marry. One of the most fundamental IS for the wife to help the husband (that's very clear from God's first statements about Eve in Genesis), and I am sure we all know from our own lives that in practice the husband also helps the wife, with both benefiting from the arrangement.

Love is wonderful, but I agree with Steve's reservations about romance. I read a fascinating study a few years ago that looked at arranged marriages vs western romantic marriages. They found that on average the arranged marriages lasted longer. Even more interesting, up to about 10 years into the marriage the western couples felt more "in love", but from 10 years on the arranged couples loved each other more, and this continued to grow throughout their lives!

These arranged marriages had been put together by parents making careful calculated decisions about who would be the best partner to help their child through their lives, and had married them on that basis. They may also have been in cultures where divorce was more restricted. The marriage was entered into on the basis of COMMITMENT, to help each other for life, not on the basis of love. With commitment, you learn to love - because you have to. Why else do you love your parents & siblings? You're stuck with them, and so you find you love them (even if sometimes you have disagreements and don't like them so much!).

Western marriage starts on the basis of romantic love, which is a fickle indefinable feeling that waxes and wanes. They hope they will continue to love each other. After 10 years or so many couples decide "we're different people now", find they don't love the new person their spouse has become, and divorce. Because once the romantic love dims, the foundation of their marriage has gone.

So back to the topic at hand, I'd say:
1) If you just think she's a needy woman that needs your amazing talents to fix her, and marry her on that basis, thinking you're better than her - don't expect it to go well.

2) If you just think she's hot and feel all "in-love" with her, but haven't stopped to think about how well you'd match once the honeymoon feeling fades - don't expect it to go well either.

3) BUT, if you see in her somebody who is a perfect match for you, would be a great helpmeet for the rest of your life, and who you are willing to commit to in order to achieve this, marry her. That's actually the best reason to marry - it's why God made Eve for Adam.
(If you also feel in-love with her (2) and see a great need for marriage (1), then grab her immediately - they're excellent bonuses, particularly romantic love, but they shouldn't be the foundation of your marriage as neither is necessarily permanent).
 
good summation, samuel

no's 1) and 2) will never be that black-and-white, but it gets the point across.

everyone WILL have needs and it may be a tightrope walk balancing all of them out.
your need may be that others not rely on, lean on, need you too much. then again, you may feel under-utilized if you do not feel all that needed. not every guy feels fulfilled being married to women who need him like a fish needs a bicycle. ;)
the objective is to empower each other in the relationship so that the need is not a black hole, and, avoiding a true black hole experience is probably the core of this thread.
 
Samuel,
Any chance you could post a link to that study you mentioned? I find the science fascinating and think it would be fun to read. Yes, I'm a bit nerdy that way.
Thanks bro!
Chris
 
Chris,

In 1997, the year before Steve and I went to the mission field, I attended a missions conference at William Carey University in Pasadena, where Ralph Winter broached this very topic. I don't remember whether he cited the study or not, (or whether it had actually been done yet,) but at the time, because I was solidly in the "romance only and forever" camp, I wasn't very open to what he had to say. Looking back on it, I see the guy had some good stuff that has helped me greatly as first a mono and then plural marriage wife.

About 5 years later I ran across the same concept again being set forth by Mary Pride, and seeing as it was during a time that God was overhauling our marriage and getting us ready to become a plural family, it made more sense, even though I "didn't want it to." While she didn't address the topic of "arranged vs. romance based" marriage specifically, she did a masterful job of showing how selfish our concepts of marriage have become in the West. To say that they are about as stable as sand for building a successful plural relationship is an understatement!! :)

Larry Crabb also sets forth concepts in The Marriage Builder that make a case for marriage for both genders as being ultimately ministry based if it's going to succeed. By "ministry based," I don't mean being in the ministry together, I mean seeing your spouse as your primary ministry, amongst other things. It busted my chops as well. None of it is cut and dried, it's nuanced, different for each couple and subject to seasons in the relationship.

Please understand, being out of your mind in love is a gas, and I am grateful for having experienced it beyond my wildest imagination, but by refusing to embrace the full complement of love, we as a culture have been robbed, and often are wearing "The Emperor's New Clothes!" We in the PM movement are like the little boy at the parade that points out what everyone else can see and is afraid to say, that something crucial is missing and we are comin' up nekkid.

Bottom line, if we are going to make our Maker smile when it comes to the Isa 4: 1 scenario re: the seven women taking ahold of one man, we are going to have to do/believe/consider/explore something different, or that prophecy will go largely unfulfilled.

One more thing: I was nutzo about Steve, then, as he says, "I fixed that, huh," (which refers to the extraordianrily painful process we both went through in nearly blowing up our marriage, working through a miraculous restoration, and then moving toward adding a wife,) and I am still nutzo about him. It's just that now I have way, way more than I did 17 years ago. I also get to love him for the remarkable way I see him love and care for my sw. I now get to have both romance and ministry, and it was totally worth going in a whole new direction to get there. :idea:
 
Thanks Samuel, I tracked down the author and sent a request for a copy of the research. Will see if I'm able to get my hands on it. "How love emerges in arranged marriages: A cross-cultural follow-up study" - Robert Epstein.
Also found another one that seems to conflict but don't have the details...
here
 
Ali, I enjoyed reading of your experience and thank you for sharing your story. I'm only familiar with Larry Crabb, however, not sure I'm familiar with the work you listed. I'll add it to my reading list (which seems to be ever growing rather than shrinking! ) :)
 
If anyone wants more information on Robert Epstein's research into marriage, check out his website drrobertepstein.com.

There is also a good interview with him at the link below, that emphasises the importance of commitment for successful marriage. Note that I am certainly NOT endorsing anything else on that website, it's a dangerous cult, but the interview is good. (Coincidentally, the man that cult claims is the second coming of the Messiah died today, not sure what that means for their theology :D )
http://www.familyfed.org/news/index.php?id=356&page=9.
chris said:
Also found another one that seems to conflict but don't have the details...
here
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That study found no difference between arranged and western marriages. That isn't really a conflict, it agrees that Western marriage is not superior to arranged marriage. Expect every study to give slightly different results, but have similar messages coming through.
 
my son, who was my best man in our committment ceremony last month, asked me a question which took me some time to answer.
he asked; "when people marry, they look for someone to simplify their life. someone who, when combined with their life, makes it easier. it looks to me like you are complicating your life. why would you do that?" my memory is not perfect on his question, but that was the jist of it.
i stumbled around a bit and did not come up with a very good answer at that time. later, as i continued to ponder it, i came up with an analogy that works for me.

some men watch tv and some men climb mountains. in my marriage analogy the tv watcher is the one who does not get married, maybe even makes fun of the guys who do. my marriage to ali is like hiking the appalachian trail, it is invigorating, fun, beautiful, at times muddy, steep, rocky, cold, hot, wet, but i would not consider going back to tv watching. adding deborah added to the degree of difficulty (as adding any new wife would), it made the journey more challenging. the muddy spots are deeper, the steep parts are steeper, etc. but it is even more invigorating, fun, and beautiful. it may be that i thrive on challenge, each one of us has needs and it is my job as the leader to work us through/past the "impossible" spots with help from above. while i continually look for more efficient ways of climbing this mountain, i have no regrets for having left the easier trail.
 
steve said:
my son, who was my best man in our committment ceremony last month, asked me a question which took me some time to answer.
he asked; "when people marry, they look for someone to simplify their life. someone who, when combined with their life, makes it easier. it looks to me like you are complicating your life. why would you do that?" my memory is not perfect on his question, but that was the jist of it.
i stumbled around a bit and did not come up with a very good answer at that time. later, as i continued to ponder it, i came up with an analogy that works for me.

some men watch tv and some men climb mountains. in my marriage analogy the tv watcher is the one who does not get married, maybe even makes fun of the guys who do. my marriage to ali is like hiking the appalachian trail, it is invigorating, fun, beautiful, at times muddy, steep, rocky, cold, hot, wet, but i would not consider going back to tv watching. adding deborah added to the degree of difficulty (as adding any new wife would), it made the journey more challenging. the muddy spots are deeper, the steep parts are steeper, etc. but it is even more invigorating, fun, and beautiful. it may be that i thrive on challenge, each one of us has needs and it is my job as the leader to work us through/past the "impossible" spots with help from above. while i continually look for more efficient ways of climbing this mountain, i have no regrets for having left the easier trail.
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Good analogy Steve, Thank you for sharing. I would like to add, I actually think PM makes my life easier. Here is an analogy I like to use. I have been a carpenter for 15 years, I have the tools for the trade and the knowledge to do the job. I could always go back to moving hand lines or picking rock as I did when I was a kid. Those jobs are easier in that anyone physically inclined with no skill set can do them. However, I am capable of so much more then that now and the extra "challenges" give me a sense of fulfillment and accomplishment which leads to more happiness and whats easier then living a happy fulfilled life? Considering the alternative, it would be much harder living a life knowing I was called for something else then it is, picking up the tools I have and setting out to finish the job I know I was called to complete.
 
steve said:
my son, who was my best man in our committment ceremony last month, asked me a question which took me some time to answer.
he asked; "when people marry, they look for someone to simplify their life. someone who, when combined with their life, makes it easier. it looks to me like you are complicating your life. why would you do that?" my memory is not perfect on his question, but that was the jist of it.
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Getting married does not make your life simpler. Well it didn't make mine simpler anyway ;) . It makes your life easier in some ways and harder in others. One person on their own is far more simple than two, and two are simpler than three. If you want to get married to make your life simpler then you're going to be sadly disappointed.

There certainly are fantastic things about marriage. We compliment each other really well and there is the friendship and love that we wouldn't have any other way. Those things well outweigh the simplicity of being on my own, that's for sure, and I would not have it any other way.
 
I think I would have simplified your life dear if I didn't keep getting you pregnant, that tends to make life more difficult and so much more rewarding and enjoyable also! :lol:

If I was single I'd be living in a van, with no debts or responsibilities. Life would be very simple, and incredibly boring...
 
In a monogamous marriage there is only one relationship to be navigated - that between the husband and the wife. As soon as you add wife number two you are already up to 4 relationships: Husband and wife number one, husband and wife number 2, wife number 1 and wife number 2, and all three people functioning together. It immediately becomes more complicated to have everyone moving in the same direction at the same time.

Throw in any kids and the number of relationships grows exponentially!

I would say adding family members makes the workload lighter, but makes the social dynamic more complicated.
 
I agree with you on that Lisa and we have missed your posts while we were gone! I like the way you can keep it real!

sweetlissa said:
I really hate this term. How many single mothers are out there looking for a husband to "help her" or a family to "help her?" Seriously, I didn't get married to hubby because he could help me. In fact my life was simple before I married him and having him in my life has complicated it exceedingly. But it is worth it because of love. People help others all the time without the expectation of love, sex or marriage. Many good Samaritans help others every day. It is part of what we as Christians are called to do. Seeking plural marriage should not be about "helping" a woman. IMHO. It should be about love and serving God. If this were a ministry that we were active in, then we couldn't turn someone away just because they didn't have the personality that we wanted or the looks that we were attracted to. This is NOT a ministry. Ultimately, it is a love affair that God gives us the right to participate in.

Think about it. If a woman becomes a wife because she needs help then she will have a built in inferiority complex as well as an automatic subordination to the first wife. Not because anyone said it but because if she needs help her attitude will likely be one of being needy. The idea of neediness and subordination will get old to all participants very quickly. If a woman becomes part of a family to be helped then what happens when she no longer needs help?

We talk about how we shouldn't have a second wife because of the "help" she can bring to our families (i.e. help with housework, help with child care, extra income.) Why would we encourage people to marry others to help them. Hagar didn't become wife to Abraham because she needed help. Rachel didn't become wife to Jacob because she needed help.

Whatever our motivation in pursuing additional wives, it cannot be because we want to help them.

And yes, I know some of you will bring up the obligation because of the "levirite law". I get that, but can you imagine if you were the widow who then had to marry the closest relative out of obligation? I would hate that someone felt they had to marry me out of responsibility or obligation. I just couldn't handle it emotionally.

I want to love my sw. If we need help at different times, then we will help each other. But the help isn't the reason for it. The love is the reason and the help is a side benefit.

Sweet Lissa
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