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What do we do with this? (1 timothy 4)

Joleneakamama said:
Not to derail a thread, but doctrines OF demons could also be a reference to those who believe that demons exist. Studying the terms demon and demons, what they used to mean, and where the terms come from is kind of fascinating. Those two words do not appear in the Hebrew scriptures, only in the biblical books translated from the greek.
Maybe another thread if anyone is interested in the subject?
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I can think of several English references that are attached to the idea of demons. Familiar spirits, "sons of God"-multiple references not always angels on the good side of things, the death angel, Isaiah 34:14 lists both the screech owl and the satyr which in Hebrew are the man/goat (also known as Azazel) and the "liyliyth" or female demon.

Also the Books of Enoch are pretty descriptive on this account as well as several of the Dead Sea Scrolls
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
I guess the biggest thing for me isn't so much polygyny itself. At first when I began to realise that it is scripturally permissible, I was just like hmm that's interesting I guess it's not a sin, but then it began to dawn on me that there is more to it than that. Polygyny is so distasteful in the modern church that under the churches teaching about marriage in general it can't be ok at all. That's when it began to dawn on me that the understanding of what marriage is touches so many aspects of doctrine that we can't afford to have a wrong view of what marriage is. God repeatedly uses marriage as an illustration of our relationship to Him. If we don't understand our position in this relationship we are not going to be in submission to Christ as we ought. This misunderstanding of marriage also creates numerous family problems in the church. It isn't so much the idea that they would forbid plural marriages, but their reasoning for doing so. Also, the sheer number of scriptural references that they choose to ignore makes one wonder about other things being taught and why they are being taught... and then there is the whole doctrine of demons thing... Yikes! Not saying that I'm leaving yet, but I am pondering all these things.
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It's interesting that those who opposed Yeshua in His day the most were the religious establishment.
I've heard countless sermons condemning "the Pharisees" and such for this yet the same pulpit endorses centuries of ludicrous tradtions which make of null effect the word of G-d.
Mark 7:8 they teach as doctrine the tradition of men
We are in the same situation today. Seminaries have traditions and those traditions are held in high esteem, even when they were established by evil men like Martin Luther and his ilk. Some denominations forbid wine yet it was Yeshua's first recorded miracle; so He was enticing people to sin?
Some forbid dancing, yet David worshiped at times this way. They all forbid biblical marriage.
It's interesting that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world but it's mostly biological growth.
The enemy knows the power of polygany for good or for evil...we should know it too.
 
Joleneakamama said:
Not to derail a thread, but doctrines OF demons could also be a reference to those who believe that demons exist. Studying the terms demon and demons, what they used to mean, and where the terms come from is kind of fascinating. Those two words do not appear in the Hebrew scriptures, only in the biblical books translated from the greek.
Maybe another thread if anyone is interested in the subject?
Click to expand...

This verse comes to mind:
יִזְבְּח֗וּ לַשֵּׁדִים֙ לֹ֣א אֱלֹ֔הַ אֱלֹהִ֖ים לֹ֣א יְדָע֑וּם חֲדָשִׁים֙ מִקָּרֹ֣ב בָּ֔אוּ לֹ֥א שְׂעָר֖וּם אֲבֹתֵיכֶֽם׃
(Deut. 32:17)
"They sacrificed to DEMONS (sheyd means demon in Hebrew), non-gods, gods (whom) they did not (even) know them, new ones to whom your ancestors did not go after."

Even the targum aramaic traditions render "Sheydin", demons here from שֵׁידָא (sheyda)-demon.
LXX: ἔθυσαν δαιμονίοις καὶ οὐ θεῷ θεοῖς οἷς οὐκ ᾔδεισαν καινοὶ πρόσφατοι ἥκασιν οὓς οὐκ ᾔδεισαν οἱ πατέρες αὐτῶν
Nominative for this word is: δαιμόνιον (daimonion)-you can see what that one's gonna be.
Interestingly enough, the Greek is where we have a divergence in thought allowing for it to be demon, or just "deities" but the Hebrew and Aramaic are fairly staunchly entrenched as demon.
 
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Asforme&myhouse said:
1 Timothy 4:1-5
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

What do we with this? Is it speaking about not only those who would forbid monogamous marriage but those who forbid biblical marriage? I would assume so since there isn't anything to specify between the two. It would seem that no one is forbidding monogamous marriage, really anywhere, not the government, not the church, not even oppressive regimes around the world. Is that verse specifically speaking about the traditional modern churches?
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Marriage is THE TOOL God gave us to understand our relationship with Him. It is a relationship of absolute authority over another. The forbidding of polygamy (which is basically illegal in all western countries. Yes there can be loop holes, but that is besides the point) is essentially putting a limit on a husbands authority in a relationship with his wife. Allowing a woman to divorce a man is altering this relationship. Anything that alters that initial framework is a breach of marriage. Marriages today are not marriages, they are roommates agreeing on who is responsible for what in the apartment. Even in my own marriage, my wife submits to me as her ultimate authority, but in todays world, it is ultimately predicated on her willing submission to me. She can legally leave and/or do whatever she wants while I have no legal discourse. Marriage is forbidden today.
 
j_wickey said:
Marriage is THE TOOL God gave us to understand our relationship with Him. It is a relationship of absolute authority over another. The forbidding of polygamy (which is basically illegal in all western countries. Yes there can be loop holes, but that is besides the point) is essentially putting a limit on a husbands authority in a relationship with his wife. Allowing a woman to divorce a man is altering this relationship. Anything that alters that initial framework is a breach of marriage. Marriages today are not marriages, they are roommates agreeing on who is responsible for what in the apartment. Even in my own marriage, my wife submits to me as her ultimate authority, but in todays world, it is ultimately predicated on her willing submission to me. She can legally leave and/or do whatever she wants while I have no legal discourse. Marriage is forbidden today.
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You're right J. Any woman has the ability to pick up the phone and drive a man from his children and possessions for no cause. It is a direct assault on God's Will. And there is no easy answer. A man has to walk a tight rope between abdicating his commanded role and foolishly courting disaster.
 
I was thinking about my post last night and I just wanted to come back and clarify what I was trying to say. I don't think it is accurate to think of it as "Biblical marriage" and "monogamous marriage." There is just marriage. Anything that adds or takes away from the man or woman's role isn't marriage anymore. A good analogy would be how people buy cars today. We call it buying a car even when we take a loan out. That isn't actually buying a car, that is borrowing a car. You find that out when you try to sell it. You need the actual owners signature. When we have relationships today where a man can't make a decision for his family without his wife's explicit consent, he isn't a husband and she isn't a wife. They aren't married, they just have an arranged living agreement. Marriage is patriarchy. A polygamous man doesn't have to have multiple wives, he just believes in the system that God gave us. Laws treating the sexes equally/same ban marriage by definition.
 
j_wickey said:
Marriage is THE TOOL God gave us to understand our relationship with Him. It is a relationship of absolute authority over another. The forbidding of polygamy (which is basically illegal in all western countries. Yes there can be loop holes, but that is besides the point) is essentially putting a limit on a husbands authority in a relationship with his wife. Allowing a woman to divorce a man is altering this relationship. Anything that alters that initial framework is a breach of marriage. Marriages today are not marriages, they are roommates agreeing on who is responsible for what in the apartment. Even in my own marriage, my wife submits to me as her ultimate authority, but in todays world, it is ultimately predicated on her willing submission to me. She can legally leave and/or do whatever she wants while I have no legal discourse. Marriage is forbidden today.
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True, the wickedness of the age and the Tyranny of forced monogamy has wrecked countless families.
Thank G-d for ladies who love the L-rd!
j_wickey said:
I was thinking about my post last night and I just wanted to come back and clarify what I was trying to say. I don't think it is accurate to think of it as "Biblical marriage" and "monogamous marriage." There is just marriage. Anything that adds or takes away from the man or woman's role isn't marriage anymore. A good analogy would be how people buy cars today. We call it buying a car even when we take a loan out. That isn't actually buying a car, that is borrowing a car. You find that out when you try to sell it. You need the actual owners signature. When we have relationships today where a man can't make a decision for his family without his wife's explicit consent, he isn't a husband and she isn't a wife. They aren't married, they just have an arranged living agreement. Marriage is patriarchy. A polygamous man doesn't have to have multiple wives, he just believes in the system that God gave us. Laws treating the sexes equally/same ban marriage by definition.
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Well put.
In the bible a husband is בעל Ba-al, master, owner of his woman. It is the same word used to describe someone as owning land, or an ox that hurts someone...
 
j_wickey said:
I was thinking about my post last night and I just wanted to come back and clarify what I was trying to say. I don't think it is accurate to think of it as "Biblical marriage" and "monogamous marriage." There is just marriage. Anything that adds or takes away from the man or woman's role isn't marriage anymore. A good analogy would be how people buy cars today. We call it buying a car even when we take a loan out. That isn't actually buying a car, that is borrowing a car. You find that out when you try to sell it. You need the actual owners signature. When we have relationships today where a man can't make a decision for his family without his wife's explicit consent, he isn't a husband and she isn't a wife. They aren't married, they just have an arranged living agreement. Marriage is patriarchy. A polygamous man doesn't have to have multiple wives, he just believes in the system that God gave us. Laws treating the sexes equally/same ban marriage by definition.
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There is a story about the longest home run ever hit in a baseball game. The ball landed in a passing freight train that didn't stop for hundreds of miles. You may have just hit one farther.
 
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