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Where is this marriage covenant doctrine taught in the Bible?
This is part of the misunderstanding I think. It’s not a covenant between “equals” the woman does not have that authority to enter into the covenant. Her father does. Basically the maintenance of the “covenant” is dependent on the husband. When God makes a covenant with a man I cannot remember any instance where the man has a choice in the matter. The man or nation is simply informed of the covenant. God has the role of both father and husband.
KJ21
Yet ye say, “Why?” Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously; yet she is thy companion and the wife of thy covenant.
ASV
Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because Jehovah hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously, though she is thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
AMP
But you say, “Why [does He reject it]?” Because the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously. Yet she is your marriage companion and the wife of your covenant [made by your vows].
AMPC
Yet you ask, Why does He reject it? Because the Lord was witness [to the covenant made at your marriage] between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously and to whom you were faithless. Yet she is your companion and the wife of your covenant [made by your marriage vows].
BRG
¶ Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
CSB
And you ask, “Why?” Because even though the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, you have acted treacherously against her. She was your marriage partner and your wife by covenant.
CEB
But you say, “Why?” Because the Lord testifies about you and the wife of your youth against whom you cheated. She is your partner, the wife of your covenant.
CJB
Nevertheless, you ask, “Why is this?” Because Adonai is witness between you and the wife of your youth that you have broken faith with her, though she is your companion, your wife by covenant.
CEV
And why isn’t God pleased? It’s because he knows that each of you men has been unfaithful to the wife you married when you were young. You promised that she would be your partner, but now you have broken that promise.
DARBY
Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because Jehovah hath been a witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt unfaithfully: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
DRA
And you have said: For what cause? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee, and the wife of thy youth, whom thou hast despised: yet she was thy partner, and the wife of thy covenant.
ERV
You ask, “Why are our gifts not accepted?” It is because the Lord saw the evil things you did—he is a witness against you. He saw you cheat on your wife. You have been married to her since you were young. She was your girlfriend. Then you made your vows to each other—and she became your wife.
ESV
But you say, “Why does he not?” Because the Lord was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
ESVUK
But you say, “Why does he not?” Because the Lord was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
EXB
You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord ·sees how you treated [L is the witness between you and] the wife ·you married when you were young [L of your youth]. You ·broke your promise [have been unfaithful] to her, even though she was your partner and ·you had an agreement with her [your wife by solemn covenant].
GNV
Yet ye say, Wherein? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast transgressed: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
GW
But you ask, “Why aren’t our offerings accepted?” It is because the Lord is a witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been unfaithful. Yet, she is your companion, the wife of your marriage vows.
GNT
You ask why he no longer accepts them. It is because he knows you have broken your promise to the wife you married when you were young. She was your partner, and you have broken your promise to her, although you promised before God that you would be faithful to her.
HCSB
Yet you ask, “For what reason?” Because the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth. You have acted treacherously against her, though she was your marriage partner and your wife by covenant.
ICB
You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord sees how you treated the wife you married when you were young. You broke your promise with her. She was your partner. You promised yourself to her.
ISV
Yet you ask, ‘For what reason?’ Because the Lord acts as a witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you were unfaithful to her, your partner, the wife of your covenant.
JUB
Yet ye say, Why? Because the LORD has been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously; yet she is thy companion and the wife of thy covenant.
KJV
Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
AKJV
Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
LEB
But you ask, “For what reason?” Because Yahweh stands as a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have been unfaithful, even though she is your marriage partner and your wife by covenant.
TLB
“Why has God abandoned us?” you cry. I’ll tell you why; it is because the Lord has seen your treachery in divorcing your wives who have been faithful to you through the years, the companions you promised to care for and keep.
MSG
And here’s a second offense: You fill the place of worship with your whining and sniveling because you don’t get what you want from God. Do you know why? Simple. Because God was there as a witness when you spoke your marriage vows to your young bride, and now you’ve broken those vows, broken the faith-bond with your vowed companion, your covenant wife. God, not you, made marriage. His Spirit inhabits even the smallest details of marriage. And what does he want from marriage? Children of God, that’s what. So guard the spirit of marriage within you. Don’t cheat on your spouse.
MEV
Yet you say, “Why?” It is because the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously. Yet she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
NOG
But you ask, “Why aren’t our offerings accepted?” It is because Yahweh is a witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been unfaithful. Yet, she is your companion, the wife of your marriage vows.
NABRE
And you say, “Why?”— Because the Lord is witness between you and the wife of your youth With whom you have broken faith, though she is your companion, your covenanted wife.
NASB
Yet you say, ‘For what reason?’ Because the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
NCV
You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord sees how you treated the wife you married when you were young. You broke your promise to her, even though she was your partner and you had an agreement with her.
NET
Yet you ask, “Why?” The Lord is testifying against you on behalf of the wife you married when you were young, to whom you have become unfaithful even though she is your companion and wife by law.
NIRV
You ask, “Why?” It’s because the Lord is holding you responsible. He watches how you treat the wife you married when you were young. You have been unfaithful to her. You did it even though she’s your partner. You promised to stay married to her. And the Lord was a witness to it.
NIV
You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord is the witness between you and the wife of your youth. You have been unfaithful to her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.
NIVUK
You ask, ‘Why?’ It is because the Lord is the witness between you and the wife of your youth. You have been unfaithful to her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.
NKJV
Yet you say, “For what reason?” Because the Lord has been witness Between you and the wife of your youth, With whom you have dealt treacherously; Yet she is your companion And your wife by covenant.
NLV
You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord has seen how you have not been faithful to the wife you married when you were young, even when she stays with you and is your wife by agreement.
NLT
You cry out, “Why doesn’t the Lord accept my worship?” I’ll tell you why! Because the Lord witnessed the vows you and your wife made when you were young. But you have been unfaithful to her, though she remained your faithful partner, the wife of your marriage vows.
NRSV
You ask, “Why does he not?” Because the Lord was a witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
NRSVA
You ask, ‘Why does he not?’ Because the Lord was a witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
NRSVACE
You ask, ‘Why does he not?’ Because the Lord was a witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
NRSVCE
You ask, “Why does he not?” Because the Lord was a witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
OJB
Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because Hashem hath been ed (witness) between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously, breaking faith: yet is she thy chaveret, and the wife of thy brit.
RSV
You ask, “Why does he not?” Because the Lord was witness to the covenant between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
RSVCE
You ask, “Why does he not?” Because the Lord was witness to the covenant between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
TLV
Yet you say, “Why?” Because Adonai bears witness between you and the wife of your youth, whom you have treated deceitfully. Yet she had been your companion and your wife by covenant.
VOICE
Yet you ask, “Why won’t He accept our offerings?” It is because the Eternal One has been a witness to the way you have dealt deceitfully with the wife of your youth, although she is your companion and covenant wife, by going off with that foreign woman!
WEB
Yet you say, ‘Why?’ Because Yahweh has been witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion, and the wife of your covenant.
WYC
And ye said, For what cause? For the Lord witnessed betwixt thee and the wife of thy puberty, that is, (of the) time of (thy) marriage, whom thou despisedest, and this is thy fellow, and the wife of thy covenant of peace. (And ye said, For what reason? Because the Lord hath witnessed what is between thee and the wife of thy youth, she whom thou hast despised, even though she is thy partner, or thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant of peace, or to whom thou hast pledged thy troth, or hast promised to be faithful.)
YLT
And ye have said, `Wherefore?' Because Jehovah hath testified between thee And the wife of thy youth, That thou hast dealt treacherously against her, And she thy companion, and thy covenant-wife.
Yet ye say, “Why?” Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously; yet she is thy companion and the wife of thy covenant.
ASV
Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because Jehovah hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously, though she is thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
AMP
But you say, “Why [does He reject it]?” Because the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously. Yet she is your marriage companion and the wife of your covenant [made by your vows].
AMPC
Yet you ask, Why does He reject it? Because the Lord was witness [to the covenant made at your marriage] between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously and to whom you were faithless. Yet she is your companion and the wife of your covenant [made by your marriage vows].
BRG
¶ Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
CSB
And you ask, “Why?” Because even though the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, you have acted treacherously against her. She was your marriage partner and your wife by covenant.
CEB
But you say, “Why?” Because the Lord testifies about you and the wife of your youth against whom you cheated. She is your partner, the wife of your covenant.
CJB
Nevertheless, you ask, “Why is this?” Because Adonai is witness between you and the wife of your youth that you have broken faith with her, though she is your companion, your wife by covenant.
CEV
And why isn’t God pleased? It’s because he knows that each of you men has been unfaithful to the wife you married when you were young. You promised that she would be your partner, but now you have broken that promise.
DARBY
Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because Jehovah hath been a witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt unfaithfully: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
DRA
And you have said: For what cause? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee, and the wife of thy youth, whom thou hast despised: yet she was thy partner, and the wife of thy covenant.
ERV
You ask, “Why are our gifts not accepted?” It is because the Lord saw the evil things you did—he is a witness against you. He saw you cheat on your wife. You have been married to her since you were young. She was your girlfriend. Then you made your vows to each other—and she became your wife.
ESV
But you say, “Why does he not?” Because the Lord was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
ESVUK
But you say, “Why does he not?” Because the Lord was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
EXB
You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord ·sees how you treated [L is the witness between you and] the wife ·you married when you were young [L of your youth]. You ·broke your promise [have been unfaithful] to her, even though she was your partner and ·you had an agreement with her [your wife by solemn covenant].
GNV
Yet ye say, Wherein? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast transgressed: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
GW
But you ask, “Why aren’t our offerings accepted?” It is because the Lord is a witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been unfaithful. Yet, she is your companion, the wife of your marriage vows.
GNT
You ask why he no longer accepts them. It is because he knows you have broken your promise to the wife you married when you were young. She was your partner, and you have broken your promise to her, although you promised before God that you would be faithful to her.
HCSB
Yet you ask, “For what reason?” Because the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth. You have acted treacherously against her, though she was your marriage partner and your wife by covenant.
ICB
You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord sees how you treated the wife you married when you were young. You broke your promise with her. She was your partner. You promised yourself to her.
ISV
Yet you ask, ‘For what reason?’ Because the Lord acts as a witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you were unfaithful to her, your partner, the wife of your covenant.
JUB
Yet ye say, Why? Because the LORD has been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously; yet she is thy companion and the wife of thy covenant.
KJV
Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
AKJV
Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
LEB
But you ask, “For what reason?” Because Yahweh stands as a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have been unfaithful, even though she is your marriage partner and your wife by covenant.
TLB
“Why has God abandoned us?” you cry. I’ll tell you why; it is because the Lord has seen your treachery in divorcing your wives who have been faithful to you through the years, the companions you promised to care for and keep.
MSG
And here’s a second offense: You fill the place of worship with your whining and sniveling because you don’t get what you want from God. Do you know why? Simple. Because God was there as a witness when you spoke your marriage vows to your young bride, and now you’ve broken those vows, broken the faith-bond with your vowed companion, your covenant wife. God, not you, made marriage. His Spirit inhabits even the smallest details of marriage. And what does he want from marriage? Children of God, that’s what. So guard the spirit of marriage within you. Don’t cheat on your spouse.
MEV
Yet you say, “Why?” It is because the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously. Yet she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
NOG
But you ask, “Why aren’t our offerings accepted?” It is because Yahweh is a witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been unfaithful. Yet, she is your companion, the wife of your marriage vows.
NABRE
And you say, “Why?”— Because the Lord is witness between you and the wife of your youth With whom you have broken faith, though she is your companion, your covenanted wife.
NASB
Yet you say, ‘For what reason?’ Because the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
NCV
You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord sees how you treated the wife you married when you were young. You broke your promise to her, even though she was your partner and you had an agreement with her.
NET
Yet you ask, “Why?” The Lord is testifying against you on behalf of the wife you married when you were young, to whom you have become unfaithful even though she is your companion and wife by law.
NIRV
You ask, “Why?” It’s because the Lord is holding you responsible. He watches how you treat the wife you married when you were young. You have been unfaithful to her. You did it even though she’s your partner. You promised to stay married to her. And the Lord was a witness to it.
NIV
You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord is the witness between you and the wife of your youth. You have been unfaithful to her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.
NIVUK
You ask, ‘Why?’ It is because the Lord is the witness between you and the wife of your youth. You have been unfaithful to her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.
NKJV
Yet you say, “For what reason?” Because the Lord has been witness Between you and the wife of your youth, With whom you have dealt treacherously; Yet she is your companion And your wife by covenant.
NLV
You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord has seen how you have not been faithful to the wife you married when you were young, even when she stays with you and is your wife by agreement.
NLT
You cry out, “Why doesn’t the Lord accept my worship?” I’ll tell you why! Because the Lord witnessed the vows you and your wife made when you were young. But you have been unfaithful to her, though she remained your faithful partner, the wife of your marriage vows.
NRSV
You ask, “Why does he not?” Because the Lord was a witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
NRSVA
You ask, ‘Why does he not?’ Because the Lord was a witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
NRSVACE
You ask, ‘Why does he not?’ Because the Lord was a witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
NRSVCE
You ask, “Why does he not?” Because the Lord was a witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
OJB
Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because Hashem hath been ed (witness) between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously, breaking faith: yet is she thy chaveret, and the wife of thy brit.
RSV
You ask, “Why does he not?” Because the Lord was witness to the covenant between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
RSVCE
You ask, “Why does he not?” Because the Lord was witness to the covenant between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
TLV
Yet you say, “Why?” Because Adonai bears witness between you and the wife of your youth, whom you have treated deceitfully. Yet she had been your companion and your wife by covenant.
VOICE
Yet you ask, “Why won’t He accept our offerings?” It is because the Eternal One has been a witness to the way you have dealt deceitfully with the wife of your youth, although she is your companion and covenant wife, by going off with that foreign woman!
WEB
Yet you say, ‘Why?’ Because Yahweh has been witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion, and the wife of your covenant.
WYC
And ye said, For what cause? For the Lord witnessed betwixt thee and the wife of thy puberty, that is, (of the) time of (thy) marriage, whom thou despisedest, and this is thy fellow, and the wife of thy covenant of peace. (And ye said, For what reason? Because the Lord hath witnessed what is between thee and the wife of thy youth, she whom thou hast despised, even though she is thy partner, or thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant of peace, or to whom thou hast pledged thy troth, or hast promised to be faithful.)
YLT
And ye have said, `Wherefore?' Because Jehovah hath testified between thee And the wife of thy youth, That thou hast dealt treacherously against her, And she thy companion, and thy covenant-wife.
Exodus 24:3, 7 indicate the people agreed. Now, clearly they didn't negotiate the terms, but it is not a unilateral covenant. In theory they could have turned it down, but after Ex. 20:18, fear and awe were clear motivators to accept unconditionally.
Reference?
Well that was a lot of cut and paste but you didn't really address if this covenant was part of forming the marriage.
If a covenant can be “unspoken” or “implied”, then aren’t we just talking about intent? If you take an available woman to bed with intent to keep her, congrats, you’re married! If you take an available woman to bed with no intention to keep her, shame on you, you are a fornicator.
Malichi 2:14
Just popping in for a moment.
I think it might be helpful to the conversation for @NeoPatriarch to give a definition for the covenant that He’s looking for. Obviously covenants existed between some husbands and wives
If it is strictly defined as a written document, then , no, you won’t find one with Adam and Eve, nor with the husband and wife that God is witness to in Malachi.
If it is defined to include a verbal covenant, such as Johnathan and David’s, then you will find quite a few instances where a verbal covenant is referred to and expressed for a variety of relationships and are considered to be just as binding as any written covenant could be. In addition, there are several instances of exact language that is spoken to form the covenant.
If the purpose of the question/thread is to ascertain whether or not a covenant of some kind is presented Biblically as the norm that should be pretty easy to see unless there’s some kind of confirmation bias that creates cognitive dissonance.
If the lack of details of a husband and wife’s covenant from 4000 years ago soumehow is proof that the covenant didn’t exist, you have bigger problems with your study than that.
As far as I’m concerned, it is enough that those in the need to know category, know that a covenant exists between my wife and I, or a prospect and I. The details are nobody else’s business.
I think it might be helpful to the conversation for @NeoPatriarch to give a definition for the covenant that He’s looking for. Obviously covenants existed between some husbands and wives
If it is strictly defined as a written document, then , no, you won’t find one with Adam and Eve, nor with the husband and wife that God is witness to in Malachi.
If it is defined to include a verbal covenant, such as Johnathan and David’s, then you will find quite a few instances where a verbal covenant is referred to and expressed for a variety of relationships and are considered to be just as binding as any written covenant could be. In addition, there are several instances of exact language that is spoken to form the covenant.
If the purpose of the question/thread is to ascertain whether or not a covenant of some kind is presented Biblically as the norm that should be pretty easy to see unless there’s some kind of confirmation bias that creates cognitive dissonance.
If the lack of details of a husband and wife’s covenant from 4000 years ago soumehow is proof that the covenant didn’t exist, you have bigger problems with your study than that.
As far as I’m concerned, it is enough that those in the need to know category, know that a covenant exists between my wife and I, or a prospect and I. The details are nobody else’s business.
It seems that this thread is not so much a request for information so much as an attempt to prove a point. Perhaps you should present your point and reasons and that would save a lot of time and effort.
It was for clarification, and that clarification had been made. I wondered if I had missed something, now I know that such an account does not exist. At least, not one that can be pointed too, only imagined.
Just to broaden things a little
Jupiter, also called Jove,.... the chief Roman and Italian god........Jupiter was not only the great protecting deity of the race but also one whose worship embodied a distinct moral conception. He is especially concerned with oaths,treaties, and leagues, and it was in the presence of his priest that the most ancient and sacred form of marriage took place. (Encyclopedia Britannica)
on the other hand
Yahweh also called Jehovah Deut 21: 13 "After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife." (New american Bible) Thus the marital union is formed.
Jupiter was a Baal god and stood directly against Jehovah and he was worshiped as the king of the gods that all other gods had to obey. Just out of interest 1Cor 10;20 says "No, I mean that the Gentiles sacrifice to demons and not to God." (NAB) Thus the gods of the nations are indeed demons! so who is the king of the demons?
We cannot mix the two moral codes! One calls for an oath to make a sacred vow, the other simply calls for loyalty toward a wife once taken.
What is fornication? Disloyalty or unfaithfulness.
It is not just sexual as shown by texts such as Num 14:33, (Whoredoms KJ, Unfaithfulness NIV) Judges 19:2, (played the Whore gainst him, KJ Unfaithful to him NIV) Ezek 6:9, (Whorish heart KJ adulterous hearts NIV) These texts are speaking of unfaithfulness but are not in reference to sexual conduct.
Just saying!
Jupiter, also called Jove,.... the chief Roman and Italian god........Jupiter was not only the great protecting deity of the race but also one whose worship embodied a distinct moral conception. He is especially concerned with oaths,treaties, and leagues, and it was in the presence of his priest that the most ancient and sacred form of marriage took place. (Encyclopedia Britannica)
on the other hand
Yahweh also called Jehovah Deut 21: 13 "After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife." (New american Bible) Thus the marital union is formed.
Jupiter was a Baal god and stood directly against Jehovah and he was worshiped as the king of the gods that all other gods had to obey. Just out of interest 1Cor 10;20 says "No, I mean that the Gentiles sacrifice to demons and not to God." (NAB) Thus the gods of the nations are indeed demons! so who is the king of the demons?
We cannot mix the two moral codes! One calls for an oath to make a sacred vow, the other simply calls for loyalty toward a wife once taken.
What is fornication? Disloyalty or unfaithfulness.
It is not just sexual as shown by texts such as Num 14:33, (Whoredoms KJ, Unfaithfulness NIV) Judges 19:2, (played the Whore gainst him, KJ Unfaithful to him NIV) Ezek 6:9, (Whorish heart KJ adulterous hearts NIV) These texts are speaking of unfaithfulness but are not in reference to sexual conduct.
Just saying!
So something to note about "become one flesh" is that the becoming one flesh happens in the context of leaving ones father and mother. So the leaving is with the intent of cleaving. To the Hebrews Jesus was talking to I am sure they would have understood this to transfer the responsibilities previously given to the father over to the husband, thus placing the husband in a set of understood commitments that he owed to God and arguably the girls father. A set of understood commitments might be called a covenant.
This is easier to see clearly when you look at a Hebrew's view on sex with a prostitute. No set of continuing understood commitments, no interaction with the father and an expectation that when payment is made the interaction is over. Also I haven't found any scriptures regarding how God expects a Hebrew to treat his prostitute after sex, maybe there are some, I just can't recall. (PS I am no supporter of prostitution)
I don't believe any Hebrew could have heard Jesus description of marriage and thought it didn't carry with it the ongoing understood commitments. The more I ponder these scriptures and the original meaning I am inclined to believe that covenant (defined as an ongoing understood set of responsibilities or commitments) is a necessary part of a marriage. I am starting to believe that those responsibilities are placed on the couple by God as the leave and cleave "what God has joined together let no man separate".
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Just because the prophets of a false god promote something doesn’t mean that thing in and of itself is wrong to do. Many false gods promote sex and we also know that God promotes sex and gives it to a husband and wife as a wonderful gift... God pictures himself as having a covenant with his wife. Covenants are not wrong...
While I agree with your general statement.
I’m not completely sure this is correct. I find no specific command against it. I would say it makes you guilty of coveting (Exodus 20:17) and also you are neglecting your responsibility to marry her if she was a virgin (Exodus 22:16) but unless she is a prostitute I don’t see how it can be labeled fornication...
Seems to me we can all be mostly right and it still works.
God certainly makes covenants, but I see nowhere that He demands one of someone.
Certainly there are expectations of what is 'right' of a husband and wife to do to/for each other, the same way there is between parents and children (to bring in the headship issue), and those expecations can be both cultural and from God (and obviously we'd all argue God's expecations are the priority).
Where God (through the Bible) gives specific expectations, we seek to follow those because we love Him and want to image Him in our marriages. Husbands love your wives, wives respect your husbands, etc.
While that is an expectation we generally feel God desires us to follow, He doesn't have to command us to make a covenant, nor does there seem to be anywhere that an explicit covenant must be made in order to be man and wife.
Why? Because the expectations are known, and we are seeking to follow God's heart for us as men/wives, rather than making vows (which Jesus DOES specifically tell us not to do).
Parents don't have to make a covenant to take care of their children, they just DO it. Nobody would argue that they are not, therefore, parents. It is a simple matter of identity. As in that passage @Pacman seems to dismiss (not sure why? Your argument about not being under headship seems to be a non-related topic considering that whether the woman was under headship or not, God now declares them man and wife... still no explicit covenant bro...), God can view man and wife as man and wife without an explicit covenant. Why? Because it's a matter of identity, just like being parents/children.
God certainly makes covenants, but I see nowhere that He demands one of someone.
Certainly there are expectations of what is 'right' of a husband and wife to do to/for each other, the same way there is between parents and children (to bring in the headship issue), and those expecations can be both cultural and from God (and obviously we'd all argue God's expecations are the priority).
Where God (through the Bible) gives specific expectations, we seek to follow those because we love Him and want to image Him in our marriages. Husbands love your wives, wives respect your husbands, etc.
While that is an expectation we generally feel God desires us to follow, He doesn't have to command us to make a covenant, nor does there seem to be anywhere that an explicit covenant must be made in order to be man and wife.
Why? Because the expectations are known, and we are seeking to follow God's heart for us as men/wives, rather than making vows (which Jesus DOES specifically tell us not to do).
Parents don't have to make a covenant to take care of their children, they just DO it. Nobody would argue that they are not, therefore, parents. It is a simple matter of identity. As in that passage @Pacman seems to dismiss (not sure why? Your argument about not being under headship seems to be a non-related topic considering that whether the woman was under headship or not, God now declares them man and wife... still no explicit covenant bro...), God can view man and wife as man and wife without an explicit covenant. Why? Because it's a matter of identity, just like being parents/children.
That's the way the Bible presents it.
I knew a man that wanted to divorce his wife not because of fornication/adultery but rebellion. She just did not agree on the issue of polygamy, so he divorced her without cause. At least not the only cause for which Jesus seemed to make an exception. What He never says is no divorce except if she violates your marriage covenant. That position is anti-biblical and as such is dangerous.
That position sets a personal contract or covenant above God's word.
Thanks for chiming in.
Not dismissing it. Thats an example of it being implied. I actually agree with you. The marriage is a covenant wether or not it is expressed, written, or implied. The intention needs to be there. The passage in question gives specific steps that are to be followed and those steps indicate intent to make her a wife. Then the sex seals the deal. In that case the husband was also the master and he made the decision to enter into the covenant for both himself and the woman.
My point is that sex alone does not make them married. There has to be intent to marry...
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I am not exactly sure this is right, a contract was made between Jacob and Laban for BOTH Leah and Rachel.
Genesis 29:16–30
16 Now Laban had two daughters. The name of the older was Leah, and the name of the younger was Rachel. 17 Leah’s eyes were weak,1 but Rachel was beautiful in form and appearance. 18 Jacob loved Rachel. And he said, q“I will serve you seven years for your younger daughter Rachel.” 19 Laban said, “It is better that I give her to you than that I should give her to any other man; stay with me.” 20 So Jacob qserved seven years for Rachel, and they seemed to him but a few days because of the love he had for her.
21 Then Jacob said to Laban, “Give me my wife that I may go in to her, for my time is completed.” 22 So Laban gathered together all the people of the place and rmade a feast. 23 But in the evening he took his daughter Leah and brought her to Jacob, and he went in to her. 24 (Laban gave2 shis female servant Zilpah to his daughter Leah to be her servant.) 25 And in the morning, behold, it was Leah! And Jacob said to Laban, “What is this you have done to me? Did I not serve with you for Rachel? Why then have you deceived me?” 26 Laban said, “It is not so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn. 27 tComplete the week of this one, and we will give you the other also in return for serving me another seven years.” 28 Jacob did so, and completed her week. Then Laban gave him his daughter Rachel to be his wife. 29 (Laban gave uhis female servant Bilhah to his daughter Rachel to be her servant.) 30 So Jacob went in to Rachel also, and he loved Rachel more than Leah, and served Laban vfor another seven years.
Jacob made a contract but was unaware of the terms completely. Therefore, if he had studied the customs in the country he was living in he would have known what he was getting himself into, he didn't read the fine print. If we sign a contract without reading it, we are still bound by the contract.
So in both cases, there was a covenant before sex. Interesting to note that I had always thought that Jacob had to work another seven years to get Rachel, but it looks to me that he got her after he finished Leah's week of marriage ceremony. Jacob received the part of the contract he agreed to but he also received the part of the contract he was not aware of at the time.
Also, verse 21 claims that Jacob considers Rachel his wife even after seven years of no sex.