• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Meat Who Is In Charge & Directs Others In Church or Marriage?

elkanahtyler

elkanahtyler

Member
Male
In Church or Marriage, Who Is In Charge & Directs Others?

By Tyler and Gulane Posts & Publications 12/28/20

No believer has the right to order, demand, tell or command another believer to do something in Christian fellowship or marriage.

***42 Jesus summoned them, and said to them, “You know that they who are recognized as rulers over the nations control, subjugate, rule over and hold in subjection<G2634> them, and their great ones tyrannize and have full privilege/authority<G2715> over them. 43 But it must not be like that among you.On the contrary, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,” Mark 10 Expanded

**”25 He said to them, “The kings of the nations control, rule and have dominion<G2961> over them, and those who have the right and power to do with them as they see fit<G1850> are called ‘benefactors.’ 26 But not so with you. But one who is the greater among you, he should become as the younger, and one who is governing<G2233>, as one who serves<G1247>.” Luke 22 EXPANDED

Consider the Greek of Mark 10.

***”42 Jesus summoned them, and said to them, “You know that they who are recognized as rulers over the nations lord it over<G2634> them, and their great ones exercise authority<G2715> over them. 43 But it must not be like that among you.On the contrary, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,” Mark 10

<G2634>Strrong's Lexicon: control, subjugate:—exercise dominion over

<G2634> Thayer's: to hold in subjection, to be master of,

<G2634> >Arndt & Gingrich Lexicon: be master of, ruler over

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2634&t=KJV

<G2715>Arndt & Gingrich Lexicon: tyrannize over

<G2715>Strong's Lexicon: have full privilege/authority over

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2715&t=KJV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+10:42-43&version=HCSB;CJB;ESV;WEB;NASB

Consider the Greek of Luke 22.

***”25 He said to them, “The kings of the nations lord it over<G2961> them, and those who have authority over<G1850> them are called ‘benefactors.’ 26 But not so with you. But one who is the greater among you, he should become as the younger, and one who is governing<G2233>, as one who serves<G1247>.” Luke 22

<G2961> Strong's: to rule:—have dominion over, lord, be lord of, exercise lordship over.

<G2961> Thayer's: to be lord of, to rule over, have dominion over

<G2961> Arndt & Gingrich Lexicon: rule, control or master one

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2961&t=KJV

<G1850> Strong's:to control:—exercise authority upon, bring under the (have) power of.

<G1850> Thayer's: to be master of anyone, exercise authority over one

<G1850>Arndt & Gingrich Lexicon: The right or power to do with someone as one sees fit

<G2233>Strong's: lead, command, have the rule over

<G2233>Thayer's: to be a leader; to rule, command; to have authority over
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1850&t=KJV

***”25 He said to them, “The kings of the nations control, rule and have dominion<G2961> them, and those who have the right and power to do with them as they see fit<G1850> are called ‘benefactors.’ 26 But not so with you. But one who is the greater among you, he should become as the younger, and one who is governing<G2233>, as one who serves<G1247>.” Luke 22 EXPANDED

Christian leaders in the church must not control, subjugate or domineer other believers.

***5 I exhort the elders among you, . . 2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not under compulsion, . . . not controllng, subjugating or domineering over<G2634> those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. 1 Peter 5

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+5:1-3&version=HCSB;CJB;ESV;WEB;NASB

<G2634>Strrong's Lexicon: control, subjugate:—exercise dominion over

<G2634> Thayer's: to hold in subjection, to be master of,

<G2634> >Arndt & Gingrich Lexicon: be master of, ruler over

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2634&t=KJV

In church activities, in ministry, in worship, in marriage or in Christian volunteer service no believer should tell another believer what to do, or boss another around or dominate another. Luke 22:25,26; 1 Peter 5:3; Ezek. 34:4; Matt. 20:25, 26; Mark 10:42, 43; 2 Cor. 1:24

***”5:1 I exhort the elders among you, . . .. 2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight<G1983>, not under compulsion, . . . 3 neither as lording it over<G2634> those entrusted to you, but making yourselves examples to the flock.” 1 Peter 5

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+5:1-3&version=HCSB;CJB;ESV;WEB;NASB


In church activities, in ministry, in worship, in marriage, in Christian volunteer service any believer who oversees, takes the oversight to inspect, look after and care for<G1983> other believers should NOT lord against another, i.e. control another, subjugate another:—exercise dominion over another (lordship), be lord over another (From Strong's Lexicon <G2634>).. 1 Peter 5:3

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2634&t=KJV


In church activities, in ministry, in worship, in marriage or in Christian volunteer service any believer who oversees, takes the oversight to inspect, look after and care for<G1983> other believers should NOT bring another under his/her power, subject another to oneself, subdue another, master another; or hold another in subjection, be master of another or exercise/use lordship over another. (From Thayer's Lexicon <G2634>). 1 Peter 5:3 https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2634&t=KJV

In Biblical Christian Marriage no believing mate should control his/her mate:— or exercise authority upon his/her mate, bring his/her mate under his/her power; have power or authority over his/her mate, use power on/over his/her mate, subdue his/her mate, or hold his/her mate in subjection; or be master of his/her mate, exercise authority over his/her mate. In marriage a mate should behave like “an attendant, i.e. wait upon (menially or as a host, friend or teacher)”; like a servant, domestic or waiter<G1247>. (Strong's and Thayers, Luke 22:26)

A believing husband asks his wife to do something. He should not command or order her to do anything. She does 1 Thessalonians 5:21 because she must do 1 Thessalonians 5:22. Having determined that what her husband has asked her to do is not contrary to the Word of God, she does what he asked her to do and she does it as she would do it for Jesus.Luke 22:25-26

***21 Submit to one another in fear of the Messiah. 22 Wives should submit to their husbands as they do to the Lord; . . 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly, and gave himself up for it; . . 28 In the same way, husbands are to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. . . 33 Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband. Ephesians 5


***1 Peter 3:1 In the same way, wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, , so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, . . . 5 For this is how the holy women before, who hoped in God also adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands: . . . 7 You husbands, in the same way, live with your wives according to knowledge, giving honor to the woman, as to the weaker vessel, as being also joint heirs of the grace of life; that your prayers may not be hindered.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/bib...cceed-in-biblical-christian-marriage-t64.html
 
A husband is the owner of his woman and has near absolute authority.

Exodus 20:17
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Notice she is included in the list of his possessions?

Genesis 20:3
But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married."

That word "married" spoken by Yah himself is: baal

Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition
1.owner, husband, lord
A. owner
B. a husband
C. citizens, inhabitants
D. rulers, lords
E. (noun of relationship used to characterise - ie, master of dreams)
F. lord (used of foreign gods)
 
Last edited:
elkanahtyler said:
***21 Submit to one another in fear of the Messiah. 22 Wives should submit to their husbands as they do to the Lord; . . 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly, and gave himself up for it; . . 28 In the same way, husbands are to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. . . 33 Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband. Ephesians 5
Click to expand...

Apply a constant interpretation and continue reading in chapter 6 let me know how that works out.
 
elkanahtyler said:
In Biblical Christian Marriage no believing mate should control his/her mate:— or exercise authority upon his/her mate, bring his/her mate under his/her power; have power or authority over his/her mate, use power on/over his/her mate, subdue his/her mate, or hold his/her mate in subjection; or be master of his/her mate, exercise authority over his/her mate. In marriage a mate should behave like “an attendant, i.e. wait upon (menially or as a host, friend or teacher)”; like a servant, domestic or waiter<G1247>. (Strong's and Thayers, Luke 22:26)
Click to expand...

conflating two different relationships. This isn't talking about the home its talking about the assembly.
 
So I generally agree as it relates to the assembly / church but this study is dead wrong as it relates to a man and his woman.
 
Pacman said:
A husband is the owner of his woman and has near absolute authority.

Exodus 20:17
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Notice she is included in the list of his possessions?

Genesis 20:3
But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married."

That word "married" spoken by Yah himself is: baal

Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition
1.owner, husband, lord
A. owner
B. a husband
C. citizens, inhabitants
D. rulers, lords
E. (noun of relationship used to characterise - ie, master of dreams)
F. lord (used of foreign gods)
Click to expand...
 
"A husband is the owner of his woman and has near absolute authority."
Not according to Jesus Christ. Besides that, according to the Apostles and the Spirit, Gentile-nonJews are not under most of the Sinai Law. In Christ the husband DOES NOT HAVE ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY, but is responsible for what he does as husband.
***42 Jesus summoned them, and said to them, “You know that they who are recognized as rulers over the nations control, subjugate, rule over and hold in subjection<G2634> them, and their great ones tyrannize and have full privilege/authority<G2715> over them. 43 But it must not be like that among you.On the contrary, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,” Mark 10 Expanded

**”25 He said to them, “The kings of the nations control, rule and have dominion<G2961> over them, and those who have the right and power to do with them as they see fit<G1850> are called ‘benefactors.’ 26 But not so with you. But one who is the greater among you, he should become as the younger, and one who is governing<G2233>, as one who serves<G1247>.” Luke 22 EXPANDED

Consider the Greek of Mark 10.

***”42 Jesus summoned them, and said to them, “You know that they who are recognized as rulers over the nations lord it over<G2634> them, and their great ones exercise authority<G2715> over them. 43 But it must not be like that among you.On the contrary, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,” Mark 10

<G2634>Strrong's Lexicon: control, subjugate:—exercise dominion over

<G2634> Thayer's: to hold in subjection, to be master of,

<G2634> >Arndt & Gingrich Lexicon: be master of, ruler over

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2634&t=KJV

<G2715>Arndt & Gingrich Lexicon: tyrannize over

<G2715>Strong's Lexicon: have full privilege/authority over

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2715&t=KJV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+10:42-43&version=HCSB;CJB;ESV;WEB;NASB

Consider the Greek of Luke 22.

***”25 He said to them, “The kings of the nations lord it over<G2961> them, and those who have authority over<G1850> them are called ‘benefactors.’ 26 But not so with you. But one who is the greater among you, he should become as the younger, and one who is governing<G2233>, as one who serves<G1247>.” Luke 22

<G2961> Strong's: to rule:—have dominion over, lord, be lord of, exercise lordship over.

<G2961> Thayer's: to be lord of, to rule over, have dominion over

<G2961> Arndt & Gingrich Lexicon: rule, control or master one

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2961&t=KJV

<G1850> Strong's:to control:—exercise authority upon, bring under the (have) power of.

<G1850> Thayer's: to be master of anyone, exercise authority over one

<G1850>Arndt & Gingrich Lexicon: The right or power to do with someone as one sees fit

<G2233>Strong's: lead, command, have the rule over

<G2233>Thayer's: to be a leader; to rule, command; to have authority over
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1850&t=KJV
 
Pacman said:
conflating two different relationships. This isn't talking about the home its talking about the assembly.
Click to expand...
That is your opinion and I believe it is incorrect. Since it is spoken to the Apostles in the same way as John 14:15 etc it is applicable to all believers in all situations of social interaction. There is nothing in the context that limits it to the assembly.
 
Pacman said:
This has ZERO scriptural support.
Click to expand...
In your opinion. I have Jesus' support since He spoke it to the Apostles for all believers.
"A husband is the owner of his woman and has near absolute authority."
Not according to Jesus Christ. Besides that, according to the Apostles and the Spirit, Gentile-nonJews are not under most of the Sinai Law. In Christ the husband DOES NOT HAVE ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY, but is responsible for what he does as husband.
***42 Jesus summoned them, and said to them, “You know that they who are recognized as rulers over the nations control, subjugate, rule over and hold in subjection<G2634> them, and their great ones tyrannize and have full privilege/authority<G2715> over them. 43 But it must not be like that among you.On the contrary, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,” Mark 10 Expanded

**”25 He said to them, “The kings of the nations control, rule and have dominion<G2961> over them, and those who have the right and power to do with them as they see fit<G1850> are called ‘benefactors.’ 26 But not so with you. But one who is the greater among you, he should become as the younger, and one who is governing<G2233>, as one who serves<G1247>.” Luke 22 EXPANDED
 
Pacman said:
So I generally agree as it relates to the assembly / church but this study is dead wrong as it relates to a man and his woman.
Click to expand...
You have no Scripture to support your opinion. So I go with Scripture and what Jesus said.
 
@elkanahtyler, would you mind please posting each point once rather than many times? You've posted the same scripture 3 times now already in this thread, copy-paste each time, and it's just cluttering the discussion. Makes it very difficult to read or respond to you.

Yes, we see what the scripture says. The question is how do we interpret that.

Jesus said the "kings" control, subject and tyrannize their subjects, and we are not to do that. However, does that mean:
1) There should be no human king (or government)? Or
2) Human kings (or governments) should rule fairly and justly, not exerting authority beyond proper bounds, and not tyrannizing their subjects?

Or, applied to marriage, does it mean:
1) There should be no head of the marriage? Or
2) The head of the marriage should manage it fairly and justly, not exerting authority beyond proper bounds, not tyrannizing their wives & children?

I think Jesus is saying point 2, not point 1. He is teaching how to be a GOOD leader - not saying there should be no leaders. And a good leader acts as a servant.

The classic illustration of that is Jesus washing the disciples feet at the last supper - doing the job of a servant, yet remaining the leader. In the same way, it is a powerful thing for a husband to wash the feet of his wives & children (great thing to do at Easter or Passover by the way, whichever you celebrate). But this is only an illustration of the attitude we should have every day in running our families.
 
Thanks for the reply FollowingHim. I understand it to mean in relations between believers anywhere at any time King Jesus decrees that none of us are to "tyrannize, subjugate, dominate" another disciple of Jesus. His Word was "43 But it must not be like that among you" and I believe this Word of His is as binding on all believers as is His Word in ordaining His Last Supper/Communion. 43 But it must not be like that among you in church or in marriage. So the husband leads and teaches and asks His wife to follow his lead. Then the ball is in the wife's court and she comes under the Word in 1 Thessalonians 5:21,22 to test, try, examine and prove what her husband asks and if she finds it to be within the King's will and Way, she chooses to submit to her husband's lead. That's the way it looks to me from here. Thanks for the fellowship.
 
Your opinion.
Marriage isn’t mentioned.
 
elkanahtyler said:
Thanks for the reply FollowingHim. I understand it to mean in relations between believers anywhere at any time King Jesus decrees that none of us are to "tyrannize, subjugate, dominate" another disciple of Jesus. His Word was "43 But it must not be like that among you" and I believe this Word of His is as binding on all believers as is His Word in ordaining His Last Supper/Communion. 43 But it must not be like that among you in church or in marriage. So the husband leads and teaches and asks His wife to follow his lead. Then the ball is in the wife's court and she comes under the Word in 1 Thessalonians 5:21,22 to test, try, examine and prove what her husband asks and if she finds it to be within the King's will and Way, she chooses to submit to her husband's lead. That's the way it looks to me from here. Thanks for the fellowship.
Click to expand...
I understand how you've got there, but still disagree. I think there's a big difference between tyrannizing and leadership, and I believe Jesus is teaching only against the former.

Firstly, @steve is correct that this passage doesn't mention marriage. It is most naturally understood as talking about church leadership (elders, pastors etc). However, I see how you've got from that to marriage as husbands and wives are both obviously within the church also.

But to accept this as being about marriage forces us to ignore all of the other passages that clearly speak about a husband being the head of the wife, as Christ is head of the church. It is our responsibility to obey Christ, not to carefully ponder each thing he tells us to do and decide for ourselves whether we think it is right before doing it. Same goes for a wife and husband.

On the other hand, I do agree that a wife is to submit voluntarily to her husband, and a husband should not force her to submit. Christ does not force us to submit to him, he gives us commands but expects us to voluntarily choose to obey them. That does not however lessen the fact that they are commands, and to disobey them is sinful. We just have the free choice to sin.

So a wife does have the free choice to disobey her husband. Yet it is still wrong for her to do so.
 
Brother, I believe you've strayed from interpretation and entered into application disguised as interpretation. It's a poor hermaneutic the modern church abuses to its detriment.

Direct interpretation and exegesis of these verses is not what you are proposing. It's an application rooted in eisegesis.

Yes, you can apply these admonitions to husbands, but its hard for me to accept them as valid interpretations.
 
@elkanahtyler

Paul likens the husband - wife relationship to that of us and Christ.

Do you believe that...

Christ should ask a Christian to do something. He should not command or order her to do anything.

Christ should not control a Christian:— or exercise authority upon a Christian, bring a Christian under his power; have power or authority over a Christian, use power on/over a Christian, subdue a Christian, or hold a Christian in subjection; or be master of a Christian, exercise authority over a Christian

?


elkanahtyler said:
"A husband is the owner of his woman and has near absolute authority."
Not according to Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...

Furthermore Paul teaches that the wife should obey her husband in the same way she does God. Do you likewise think then that God has no absolute authority over us?



p.s. your formatting makes your posts hard to read or understand what is your statements and what is quoted. There is an Insert quote feature in the reply box that helps with this.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top