Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boot!

[Seth]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

First, your letter to the girl, is a little 18th century, and not really very offensive. Do these people live in the real world at all? For the amount of hoopla generated, the letter should have had something juicy from a vulgar r&b hit, or rap selection. So as to did you err, I would say not so sir. The only accusation that can be leveled at you, is idealism and optimism, rarely survives contact with this world. That you were so naive as to attempt to practice the things you believe shows you unfit for this world. A scathing rebuke, if one wants to be fit for this world, which I certainly do not!
Second, you requested input on the weaker brother stumbling block argument. I am probably not the best person on this subject as I found it almost universally applied erroneously. I have never had a weaker brother come to me and ask I not do something because it makes his struggle more difficult. I always have supposedly more mature christians than I, telling me how I have to act so that their life flows more smoothly. My response is always, that I must be the weaker brother since they are so much more knowledgeable than I about God's will, as demonstrated by my heretical doctrines. So could they please make my life easier, and sit down and shut the hell up, cuz they are being a stumbling block for me Of course for some reason I have never seen anyone else change their viewpoints or practices because I'm the supposedly erring christian, in order for my walk to go more smoothly. Instead we immedietly switch over to explusion mine of course, not the supposedly mature christians who are a stumbling block to me. But hopefully some of our more levelheaded brothers will have better advice for you!

 

[ylop]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

Hi Micah & Amy. I am really glad you provided an update, I am so hoping things will work out the best for you. I thought the letter was very nice and genuine, authentic. There is nothing wrong with it whatsoever. I dont see why you need to apologise. You made a perfectly civil offer. I mean really in the history of humanity, I imagine that many male-female encounters have started in a rougher way than this! The recipient could simply choose to politley decline your offer, without suffering mortal offense and indignation. If I was in your shoes I would probably just move on, both in the relationship and possibly the church. However I can see you have considerable ties there, and you certainly are giving them a fair go, and erring on the side of grace rather than pride. One last thing, please excuse my wicked sense of humour but perhaps when you were "at one time quite effluent on the sowing machine" is why it is not working so well now?!# ylop

 

[steve]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

Luk 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

why do we (yes, all of us) consider it such an anomaly when it happens? He pretty much told us to expect it

so, what are you hearing from the Lord about where you will minister next?

 

[Yaakov]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

Micah, you asked for some input on the issue of stumbling weaker brethren.

In thinking about that, I was taken back to the Reformation and particularly to Luther's marriage but beyond that generally to the abandonment of monastical vows. I'm rather sure that there were many who considered that wrong - perhaps some were even stumbled by that. It was, however, very necessary to set right fundamental issues which were very wrong.

The drinking of wine of eating of meat is not something of fundamental importance; marriage, however, is. That the truth of biblical marriage is being restored to God's people ... well, to repeat myself: That is on fundamental importance, and those who are offended by it will just have to get over it.

Were we to sit back and not move forward with the truth, because there are so many still in bondage to the lie of monogamy-only, we would not be true to God.

 

[beccablue]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

Perhaps in the interest of peace keeping, you make no promises, only choose to no longer cast your pearls before the swine? I think the whole premise of stumbling the weaker brothers is, frankly, garbage. How did you cause them to sin? Did they suddenly decide to go cheat on their spouses? Have a murder rampage in the street? Their failure to believe is not a case of you causing them to stumble, they still don't believe or even doubt monogamy.

No, they will be looking for you to denouce polygamy and then if you vow to do so, it will become sin for you instead. I'm not saying don't go to the meeting, but I am saying choose your words carefully and don't waste your breath trying to explain your conviction fully... that would be casting your pearls to the hogs. Just take a stance of "listening"... I would make no promises and probably make no defense either, just listen and let them do the talking. With proper placed wording you can side step them "yes brother so-and-so, I hear your concern, I am listening". That type of thing.

Just thinking out loud I suppose.

~Becca

 

[Scarecrow]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

Very well put Becca...I was reminded of the Serenity Prayer as I read your reply...

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
(I cannot change other people, at best I may be able to influence them if they respect me)
Courage to change the things I can,
(The only thing I truly can change is me)
And the wisdom to know the difference.
(Help me to apply #1 and #2)

 

[cnystrom]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

In the end he said that he told me that persuading such things was social suicide and obviously was not firm enough in that. I laughed and commented that my beliefs, doctrine, and actions are not dictated by my social status.

It seems to me that you are dealing with two things. 1. Rejection of a marriage proposal. 2. Social suicide. If it is any consolation to you, the social suicide was a given. Based on the way this is falling out, had she accepted you would still have to deal with all of the social fall out. The sad fact is that for the most part polygamy is just not accepted in our society. Hopefully brave and courageous souls like yourselves will help change this. I have never even dated anyone, but have lost friends just by saying that I believe it is acceptable to God.

The blessing in all of this is in my opinion is that you will find out who really loves you, and who really has your back.

Anyway despite him apologizing for not speaking up louder earlier. I was able to glean from him that the whole situation is boiling down to this: We in our pursuit of polygyny have injured the conscience of the weaker believers as stated in 1 Cor. 8 and therefore had sinned against them and since them Christ as the verse states in that chapter. He said that what they were looking for is for us to confess that sin (stumbling the weaker brother, although we think that they may indeed be abusing this passage because they do not have any other place to stand. Nevertheless opinions on there use of this verse would be appreciated.) and in some way promise that we will not approach polygyny in this society in any shape or form.

The thing about the weaker brother argument is obvious and important: the other brother is the weaker one. The weaker brother is a temporary solution. The stronger brothers give up their Christian freedom in the interest of not causing a weaker brother to stumble (because it is more important that the weaker brother keep the faith and obtain eternal salvation than the stronger brother receives some aspect of Christian liberty that they might otherwise expect). However, the long term solution is for the weaker brother to learn the truth and become a stronger brother! Obviously we want everyone to be strong in Christ.

1. You have not sinned. Now that it has been made known to you that it is an issue you would only be sinning if you moved forward with someone who indicated to you that the truth that you were teaching was causing them to stumble (or a third party made it known to you). Agreeing to not discuss the issue with those who indicate that they are not ready to hear it is a reasonable concession in my opinion, perhaps noting that you are excited about God's truth and not sure how long you can contain it.

2. This weaker brother argument can only be used in situations where the stronger brother is walking in truth. The truth is that meat is just meat even if it is sacrificed to idols. The truth is that there is no prohibition from Christians drinking. We might give up eating meat sacrificed to idols if it is made known to us and it causes others to stumble, but this does not change truth of the basic fact. We might give up drinking in the presence of those who object if they make it know that it causes them to stumble, but this does not change the truth of the basic fact that drinking in and of itself is not a sin. If the stronger brother is simply sinning, then he would in fact be the weaker brother not the stronger brother. In the case of the weaker brother argument it should never simply stop at giving up the behavior. It should also be coupled with teaching and a plan for the weaker brothers to become stronger brothers. It should be coupled with a plan for the basic truths to become known to all.

I would ask if they really want to apply this to you, and if so are they really claiming that you are the stronger brother (in which case they would need to agree that polygamy is not a sin)? You can not be the stronger brother if polygamy is a sin. I suspect that they want to treat you like the sinful brother, but with less confrontation. If they really believe that you are the stronger brother then you should be permitted down the road some method of teaching about polygamy to help the weaker brothers become stronger brothers. It would be a sin to let the weaker brothers continue in their weakness.

I hope this helps,
Chris

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

Chris,
Thank you for this comment. It is well put and I appreciate the insight.

 

[steve]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

ahhh,
something in chris's post keyed this for me;

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;


1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

so, if someone is departing from the faith he would definately be a weaker brother. and if i did not follow those "doctrines of devils" for him it would assuredly stumble him :!: so he is allowed to require the rest of the church to heed the doctrines of devils

 

[CecilW]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

I would ask if they really want to apply this to you, and if so are they really claiming that you are the stronger brother (in which case they would need to agree that polygamy is not a sin)? You can not be the stronger brother if polygamy is a sin. I suspect that they want to treat you like the sinful brother, but with less confrontation. If they really believe that you are the stronger brother then you should be permitted down the road some method of teaching about polygamy to help the weaker brothers become stronger brothers. It would be a sin to let the weaker brothers continue in their weakness.

I want to fully agree with this observation. In fact, I would suggest expanding on it a bit, and having a statement to this effect ready for your meeting. Something to the effect that you will agree to cease actively pursuing a PM relationship within the Body until they (within a VERY reasonable period of time) have given you an opportunity to teach the topic to the whole church, so that opening your heart s and home to a single sister will no longer be misunderstood.

The "weaker brother" argument can only apply to the brother who doesn't yet understand the issues. Once they have been clearly explained, then a willful refusal to understand is his own responsibility.

While I hope that this situation will resolve harmoniously, I wouldn't count on it. Instead I'd suggest spending a material amount of time between now and the meeting developing a "We gotta bug out FAST" plan.

I'd like to offer one more observation of a lesson to be learned. While there was nothing particularly wrong about your letter to Alaynna, the timing ... We've all heard of folks who meet one day, marry the next, and live long and happy lives. But we also know that such situations are extremely RARE. The statistically far more successful strategy includes months or years of friendship/courtship before marriage is brought into the equation.

Patience is a virtue. The Chinese proverb says, "There is nothing so full of victory as patience." There truly is no hurry, unless you two got carried away and she's pregnant -- which obviously doesn't apply to this situation. So what was the hurry?

Monday-morning quarterbacking here, of course, but ... The woman clearly SAID that she wasn't interested in PM, right? I'd suggest taking a person at their word on such things, and NOT issuing a letter that amounts to a PM proposal unless/until that changes.

If one considers the woman worth pursuing despite such an upfront statement, in hopes that she will change her mind, well and good. So long as one understands that they are taking a huge gamble and are prepared to accept a long wait and perhaps failure.

The one thing most likely to cause such a change would seem to be long and deep and intimate (not sexual) involvement in your existing family. And that just plain takes TIME. You are presumably intent on building an oak tree family, not a sunflower, correct? One that will stand for many years through whatever storms, etc. Time. Slow and careful growth.

If this seems like a valid lesson for all of us to learn from this story, and if we profit from it, then the experience will not have been in vain. And if not, well, guess we'll have to keep thinking.

 

[Who is like God?]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

Thanks Chris and everybody these are some very good and concise points.

Cecilw
More time is always better I agree, patience is indeed a good virtue to learn and practice. I look back on it now and think well perhaps I should have waited and allowed more time to pass; however, having recently been trying to be more honest, by not saying or acting in such a way that could lead people to be deceived, thus I composed this letter. Perhaps a bit forward.
Looking back on things now, in hind sight, I do think that my biggest mistake was not properly cluing in my "wise council" Brother, Pastor Rich, Elders, Fathers, etc.
Despite the difficulties that this whole situation is causing it is definitely causing us to trust and hope in Christ alone.
Thanks again for all your prayers and council we really appreciate it.

 

[Who is like God?]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

I am sorry that I have not been updating this community as often or as promptly as I could. I have some good news to share. We have not yet had the meeting with Pastor Rich, we were suppose to meet last weekend; however, pastor Rich canceled the meeting. This was at the time a relief but what was even more a relief was that when I finally had a brief phone call with pastor Rich where I was able to ask him what his intentions where for the meeting. His response was rather reassuring in that he said that he wanted to talk to us, hear from us, and see where we stood. I am sure that the meeting will not be as graceful but it was nice to hear that his heart has some what improved from the first letter. It gives me great hope and peace that this meeting can be conducted civilly and even perhaps without having to severe so many ties. The meeting is scheduled for tomorrow at ten o'clock, that is the second of October. I pray that our words will be seasoned with salt and we will be wise as serpents and as gentle as doves. We are very nervous about the whole thing so prayer for that will be greatly appreciated as well. May the Lord God be glorified. Thanks again we really appreciate all the support and prayer. I will post an update before the weekend is over. I will try to respond to any questions as well.

 

[ylop]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

Thanks for the update and I hope things go well. Although I am not really sure what 'well' would be in these circumstances, as full reconciliation in return for abandonment of PM may appear attractive in the short term but disappointing long term. ylop

 

[Who is like God?]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

Well it is done; or I guess a more true statement is that it has begun. Amy and I met with Pastor Rich and the elder today as planned in addition Diana Rich's wife and Jed my brother and the assistant pastor of the church were there as well. The meeting began very cordial with Diana saying she was there for the sole purpose to make that Amy did not feel like she was all alone with a bunch of guys. :lol: Anyway then they explained while my brother was there as well. There reason was because they did not want to have to hash it over with him at another time to get him caught up to speed. Really, in my opinion it was more about them having more relational/emotional leverage. They asked me to share where I was coming from and detail the events that had taken place up to the point of Alaynna receiving the letter. I did so and realize now that it would have been much more prudent not to speak from my heart, as I did, but to in turn to have prepared a lecture on why polygyny was key to understanding Biblical marriage and Patriarchy and how it was biblical and good and not perverse or demonic. Yes, I say this because as soon as I was done and I clarified our stance (the bibles stance) on the situation Pastor rich proceeded in, as my wife said, in mocking us, although I think that it was more antagonizing us really by calling the practice of polygyny perverse, destructive, cultish, demonic and the list went on and on summing up that he was vehemently against us practicing polygyny in any way at any time. When pressed he did concede that it was possibly permissible according to the Bible, but said only when Godly authority in ones life backs them on it. Interesting detail is that his wife, Diana, did comment that it was indeed a truth in the Bible (at least Old Testament) but that it was against the law so it should not be practiced in anyway whatsoever. All in all they laid out that they would have us confess, repent, recant that polygamy is indeed a sin in this cultural and is not for us because "our" Godly council has said no and we should never go against Godly council. There was a lot of talk on how polygamy was the token piece of so many cults ... this is really irrelevant so I will just stop there. What was more relevant is that they really have given us up for lost already, saying that we were too far down this path to turn around. There is so much I was offended by this could get really long as the talk lasted for at least 2 hours. We have two months or so to come back with an answer to them. Diana recognizes that if we see it as the truth against our relationships with them, we will clearly choose the truth yet so far they have really not given us an option since when I had them clarify what the wanted from us was more or less that we would deny that this truth of the Bible (Biblical marriage, Patriarchy, polygyny) had any relevance or value in our lives today and based on the fact they have told us, as Godly council, to go no further in the practice of this "permissible action." It is this that they are standing on ... that they as the authority in our lives requires us to obey there wishes and commands.
The good news was that I do think that God is working on there hearts and that he is going to use me, my wife and I to till the soil or plant the seeds for these people. I hope that a miracle is still in the works, but if not thus far I am prepared to sacrifice all for the cause of Christ. (To walk in this insanity as they said) Truly if it came down only to limiting my freedom in Christ in the Bible in not taking a second wife I would concede for the unity of the brothers but they have made it clear that as of now that would not do for if I still believe it as true, my flesh will act on such things and I would be wolf in sheep's clothing roaming around their already shrinking flock. I would say that for now it looks like it is impossible to meet their demands, I still hope that God will work a miracle here. Much prayer is needed. Amy and I are totally emotional drained. I would ask that you pray especially for Amy as the people at the meeting see her as the instigator even though I was very clear that I was the head and leading this family. They think this because she had made up her mind about it a long time ago, when she was nineteen or so and because they are all product of matriarchs where the women controls and leads the family. Thank you for your prayers.

 

[Seth]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

I feel your pain. I was director of education for our church. I knew when I took the position that the church had a stand against alcohol. So I submitted myself to this particular nonbiblical doctrine in order to minister in the church. I spoke with the pastor at length, and we agreed it was permissible in the Bible, but that if I had a staff position there I wouldn't drink. I agreed. Couple months later his daughter-in-law was badmouthing her parents because they had the occasional glass of wine with dinner. She was upset at this horrible sin stronghold in their life and it was causing damage in her respect/relationship with them. So I explained to her that the first miracle of Christ was water to wine, that the Bible was clear that drinking alcohol in moderation was acceptable, and even in some specific instances encouraged. That no it wasn't just nonfermented grape juice but that if you drank enough of it, you indeed would become drunk, thus moderation. She went screaming of course to the pastor I was advised, that in addition to submitting to their nonbiblical prohibitions based on culture, I would necessarily be forced to teach such a position as well, and could not actually advise people in truth of God's word.
So yea I feel ya, it's not enough for you to say, you won't practice it, you have to lie about what the Bible says to please these kind of people. You have to play a part in their delusions and keep saying the king has a beautiful set of clothes, it's not enough to avert your eyes in shock and dismay at the deceit, but must actively applaud and endorse

 

[ylop]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

Micah thank you for your honest and detailed report. I like hearing what is happening in your life because you are a few steps ahead of me. One thing I can't quite understand in all of it is - why are you so honouring of these people's 'Godly authority' in your life. From your reports it seems to me they are treating you quite badly. Personally I would have walked away long before this. From my viewpoint, you have stated your Biblical position, you have approached a lady in an honest and above-board manner; both have been rejected; so it is time to move on. Perhaps my business experience has tempered this viewpoint - in so many ventures it is a numbers game, you just have to keep getting in front of people until someone says yes! Best wishes and prayers, ylop the fellow heretic and wolf in sheep's clothing (in this case a business suit).

 

[Doc]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

MIcah,

I absolutely applaud you for following the Biblical prescription for conflict resolution. By proceeding with honor, and submitting to earthly (and simultaneously HEAVENLY authority), it has now forced everyone in that meeting to ask themselves some hard questions. And believe me, even though it was a 'private' meeting, you can bet at least one other person for everyone there now knows the reason for the meeting! It sounds like even though they tried to sandbag you, you still held firm.

Believe me....its rough! Ask those of us who have been there, done that, and are wearing the t-shirts to prove it!

Stay there until they TELL you to leave. If they won't compromise, why should you? God is already preparing the next place for you.

Blessings,

Doc

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

Yes, Micah, as brother Doc has well stated, and in my email to you a minute ago, there is something to be thankful for and ALWAYS show respect and honor even when you are being mistreated. We see that in the lives of the Apostles and in the life of Christ. Christ was respectful to the government even when they were doing him wrong, Paul was respectful and even remorseful that he spoke rudely to the Chief High Priest and we find clear teachings of the need to be respectful to all who are in authority. One the strongest statements about this even comes from the book of Jude in verse 8-9. Even Michael the Arch Angel, with all of his authority and position, did not act with an audacious spirit towards the most evil and powerful angel Satan.

These meetings have much to do with showing people's true character and so long as your character reflects the glory of God then that is all you are responsible for. And as Doc has also said, if they excommunicate you then they would, I suppose if done according to the Bible, have to do this with the explanation to the whole church. That might be a seed sowing time without you doing the sowing. If you choose to go that route though please let us know because there are some thing that I'd like to share with you privately concerning that route.

 

[Who is like God?]

Re: Who is like God? & Beloved Lily about to recieve the boo

One thing I can't quite understand in all of it is - why are you so honouring of these people's 'Godly authority' in your life.

I know what you mean, they are being complete jerks, but I can not act as I feel. Even Christ was respectful when treated wrongly. I do truly hope and pray that God will work through this on their heart. It is the path of perserverance that Christ ask me to walk. If I cannot walk in this way with those that once called me friends/family how can I expect to walk this way with those that call themselves my enemy.
While we were enemies of God, he died for us; although this is painful it is not yet to the put of death
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. John 8:32

Thanks everyone for your comments and prayers.