Stages of accepting PM

[rejoicinghandmaid]

Perhaps I missed a crucial detail for understanding your point, but as far as I can determine, that parallel doesn't seem to fit well; Adam disobeyed God, whereas Christ did obey God. Did I miss a detail that makes my comment nonsensical?

Adam is TYPE of Christ. There are many others in Scripture. Any time you have a "type" of anything, if you follow the type long enough, sooner or later is breaks down. Nevertheless, there are clear "types" of Christ--Adam, Joseph, David, the bridegroom, the husband, the shepherd, the dresser of the vineyard. It's a very interesting study.

 

[rejoicinghandmaid]

The Adam did it for love narrative is something the church (everyone I've been to) has tried shoved down my throat. It's the root of the Disney fairytale theme, your not supose to let anything come between you and your one true love.

Here's my understanding.

When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it had a pleasing appearance and that the tree was desirable for making one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her; and he ate. [Adam was did not use his G-d given authority to stop her. I reject the churches explanation that she later found Adam and shared it. That he wasn't actually there. That's not what is said.]

Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked. So they sewed fig leaves together to make themselves loincloths.

They heard the voice of ADONAI, G-d, walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, so the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of ADONAI, G-d, among the trees in the garden.

ADONAI, G-d, called to the man, "Where are you?"

He answered, "I heard your voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, so I hid myself."

He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree from which I ordered you not to eat?"

The man replied, "The woman you gave [to be] with me - she gave me fruit from the tree, and I ate." [Refused to be accountable for the Authority G-d gave him]

ADONAI, G-d, said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman answered, "The serpent tricked me, so I ate."

ADONAI, G-d, said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all livestock and wild animals. You will crawl on your belly and eat dust as long as you live. [The serpent was still with them]

If you dig into the Hebrew, you see why the serpent was still with them--they were actually hiding IN the midst of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The three of them were hanging out together in that state of new found knowledge. One can only imagine the sort of fellowship that may have been experienced. For sure Ish and Isha were initially ashamed of their nakedness once they realized it, but once the aprons of leaves were on, and they felt "covered" they probably considered themselves good to go--that is until Adoni showed up that evening.

This is such a good example of how the works-salvation religions of today provide the dubious masks which soothe the souls of mankind into thinking what they've done is good enough, as long as they just keep doing more good, and more good, until their soul passes into eternity. The enemy's tactics are still the same--deception of any sort.

 

[rejoicinghandmaid]

This discussion on Adam and Eve is interesting, but we've digressed from the thread's main topic, "Stages of accepting PM".

Adoni told Ish to name all the animals that had been created and gave him dominion over them. Isha was not named by Ish until after he was bannished from the Garden of Eden. He then named her Eve (the mother of all living) which some teach that at that point he took dominion over her. She was not banned from the Garden, only the man. So either she followed him out because Adoni said her desire would be to her husband, or he told her to come out with him because he now had the rule over her. "Your desire will be toward your husband, but he will rule over you." Either way, both ended up on the other side of the angel with the flaming sword that guarded the entrance to the Garden of Eden.

I guess the question then becomes, "Did Adoni position Ish as the Adone for Isha from the beginning?' or "Did they each originally stand before Adoni with Him as the Adone?"
,
The answer has no bearing on our fallen state today. One of the issues facing a single lady is that of being without an earthly Adone and coming to the acceptance that Yeshua IS her Adone if she will only realize it. The need for human companionship never goes away because God created us to love and be loved, to interact with one another, to be involved in relationships. It's an unhealthy soul that desires to be a hermit. However, as a single lady that didn't choose my singleness, the stages of thinking about PM, learning about the possibility of perhaps once again being part of a relationship beyond that of my Yeshua is thought provoking and requires considerable prayer and searching of my Yeshua's will for the rest of my years here on Earth. So I continue to be intrigued with this particular thread on BF.

 

[rockfox]

Where your see it the he did it because "he couldn't bear to be without Eve; choosing to die with her rather than live apart." I see it as Adam refusing to step up and be accountable, to lead.

I agree with everything you said. You are right, Adam did refuse to step up and instead went along with Eve. But what I was getting at are the underlying reasons why he went along. You still see this today...

Why does a man refuse to say 'no' to a woman? Refuse to set boundaries? Why do men avoid making women feel bad? Why do pastors pander to women rather than call them to repentance?

They love, fear, worship woman instead of/more than God. They fear her wrath. They fear loosing her.

 

[Nikud]

I agree with everything you said. You are right, Adam did refuse to step up and instead went along with Eve. But what I was getting at are the underlying reasons why he went along. You still see this today...

Why does a man refuse to say 'no' to a woman? Refuse to set boundaries? Why do men avoid making women feel bad? Why do pastors pander to women rather than call them to repentance?

They love, fear, worship woman instead of/more than God. They fear her wrath. They fear loosing her.

I see your point and I can't dispute that is the reason for some....alot....most men who have bought in to the narrative. I still see that as a symptom of the problem of not putting G-d first and wielding the Authority given to us as opposed to the root. Many men put x,y or z before G-d and use it as a reason to do as the see right in their eyes ignoring G-ds will and the authority He gave us.

 

[rejoicinghandmaid]

I agree with everything you said. You are right, Adam did refuse to step up and instead went along with Eve. But what I was getting at are the underlying reasons why he went along. You still see this today...

Why does a man refuse to say 'no' to a woman? Refuse to set boundaries? Why do men avoid making women feel bad? Why do pastors pander to women rather than call them to repentance?

They love, fear, worship woman instead of/more than God. They fear her wrath. They fear loosing her.

This argument works for today in our fallen state--why does a woman refuse to say "no" to the mans' overtures instead of requiring him to respect her and keep his hands to himself--she fears losing him. Why doesn't a woman know how to set boundaries--because many times she was mistreated as a girl by her father and other men in the family and expected to just take it so she doesn't know what boundaries are; she has to learn how to establish safe, reasonable, Godly boundaries, and that usually happens in the school of hard knocks! Why do women try to avoid making the man feel bad or angry--because they fear physical or verbal abuse. Why do pastors pander to men rather than call them to repentence--because they're the guy, they've got the platform, they don't want to lose face in front of another man, they don't have the guts to call the abusive husband, dad, brother, uncle, grandpa on the carpet and deal with it, it's just easier the be "one of the good 'ole boys", and because he's a pastor, why not play god--it's ego inflating, empowering, self-serving, allows him to disciple the congregants to himself rather than to the Lord GOD, keeps the men on his side while he brow beats the women and girls from the pulpits, after all--if big daddy says it's okay, family sin is family sin, and if he condones it, you'd better not question an elder!

This argument doesn't work in Genesis before the fall. Both Ish and Isha were in a state of innocence with no knowledge of our fallen state. They simply and plainly chose to disobey. At some point each chose to turn away from the face-to-face fellowship they each had with Adoni.

Any time self is placed upon one's heart throne instead of Yeshua, you get all of the above and it is idolatry.

 

[Cap]

To understand the story of Adam and Eve one has to come to a place of understanding what Christ did for the church, for the world. Christ became sin to save the world. Adam became sin for Eve to save her. Adam is Christ, Eve is the church, the world. And if you take it even further, Adam/Christ is God and Eve/Church is Creation. God saves His Creation, and it's all based on Love.

So it is a love story. All of it.

It's all about Authority and the willingness to submit oneself to Love.

Mark 10:42-45 Jesus called [the disciples] together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Adam and Christ are connected. Why would Christ succeed but Adam fail? Except that it was part of the plan of God.

2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

The story of Adam and Eve is the story of God saving the world, at least in my mind.

I withdraw my comment. It's too complicated of a subject for this forum.

 

[rockfox]

This argument works for today in our fallen state--why does a woman refuse to say "no" to the mans' overtures instead of requiring him to respect her and keep his hands to himself--she fears losing him. Why doesn't a woman know how to set boundaries--because many times she was mistreated as a girl by her father and other men in the family and expected to just take it so she doesn't know what boundaries are; she has to learn how to establish safe, reasonable, Godly boundaries, and that usually happens in the school of hard knocks! Why do women try to avoid making the man feel bad or angry--because they fear physical or verbal abuse. Why do pastors pander to men rather than call them to repentence--because they're the guy, they've got the platform, they don't want to lose face in front of another man, they don't have the guts to call the abusive husband, dad, brother, uncle, grandpa on the carpet and deal with it, it's just easier the be "one of the good 'ole boys", and because he's a pastor, why not play god--it's ego inflating, empowering, self-serving, allows him to disciple the congregants to himself rather than to the Lord GOD, keeps the men on his side while he brow beats the women and girls from the pulpits, after all--if big daddy says it's okay, family sin is family sin, and if he condones it, you'd better not question an elder!

This is feminist BS, I reject it.

 

[cnystrom]

Do you believe Adam had more than one wife?

On this issue I side strictly with what the Bible says.

Is there any evidence for this in Jewish oral tradition, the Talmud, etc.?

I have no idea. I am Swedish.

If he didn't, then it is the story of both patriarchy and monogomy.

The point is what is the meaning of the story? Why is it in the Bible. Is monogamy a significant fact, or simply a circumstance? I contend that people who see the circumstance of monogamy as binding are falling into confirmation bias (they are seeing what they want to see). The mere fact that you see a pattern does not make that pattern binding. It has to be a pattern that God is trying to teach.

So what pattern is God trying to teach in the story of Adam and Eve? The emphasis on the story is patriarchy. Adam is made before Eve. He names the animals. She is made from his rib. etc. The info from the NT about sin entering the world via Adam is confirmation of this. That is why the patriarchs saw no contradiction in what they were doing and the story of Adam and Eve. They saw patriarchy and knew that what they were doing was patriarchal and so fit in to God's pattern.

Side note: the modern 50/50 partnership marriage does not fit the pattern, despite being monogamous.

Not to open a can of worms--but then there's Lilith .

There is no mention of her in the Bible.

 

[rockfox]

So what pattern is God trying to teach in the story of Adam and Eve? The emphasis on the story is patriarchy. Adam is made before Eve. He names the animals. She is made from his rib. etc. The info from the NT about sin entering the world via Adam is confirmation of this. That is why the patriarchs saw no contradiction in what they were doing and the story of Adam and Eve. They saw patriarchy and knew that what they were doing was patriarchal and so fit in to God's pattern.

You can be assured this one of the points of the story by reading Paul in the NT. 1 Cor 11:1-16 touches on this very chain of authority and Eve being created for Adam in justifying women wearing a symbol of authority. Nor is that alone. 1 Tim 2 touches on the issues of deception, as I pointed out. Eph 5 also can be tied to this: obey your husband as unto the Lord. Eve acted based on the authority of Satan, believing him over Adam. God rather wants her to treat her husband as His representative on Earth.

Now Eph 5 doesn't actually call out the A&E story but it rather emblematic of Genesis being not just history, but a morality tale on the nature of men and women from which we can draw many lessons which tie together with other scriptures on the subject.

 

[Nikud]

There is no mention of her in the Bible.

Isaiah 34:14

The first and only mention of Lilith in canonical scripture is found in Isaiah 34:14 which reads as follows:

Wildcats shall meet with
hyenas,
goat-demons shall call to each other;
there too Lilith shall
repose,
and find a place to rest.

-Isaiah 34:14, New Revised Standard

The term "Lilith" is not always translated as "Lilith." The original text reads as "lilitu" which does not seem to have a concrete translation. In Isaac Asimov's guide to the Bible, he notes that "lilitu" is a loan word from Babylonian which eventually came to be known as "night." Other translations replace "Lilith" with "screech owl", "night hag," or "night monster" and in the case of the Latin Vulgate the word becomes "lamia."

Lilith is the most notorious demon in Jewish tradition. In some sources, she is conceived of as the original woman, created even before Eve, and she is often presented as a thief of newborn infants. Lilith means “the night,” and she embodies the emotional and spiritual aspects of darkness: terror, sensuality, and unbridled freedom. More recently, she has come to represent the freedom of feminist women who no longer want to be “good girls.”

There is a midrash that claims that Adam had a first wife before Eve. This interpretation arises from the two creation stories of Genesis: In Genesis 1, man and woman are created at the same time, while in Genesis 2 Adam precedes Eve. The Midrash suggest that the first creation story is a different creation, in which Adam has a wife made, like him, from the earth. Lilith refuses to be submissive to Adam and flees ,and so G-d makes Adam a second wife, Eve. Hence the reason G-d hates divorce.

 

[FollowingHim]

The first and only mention of Lilith in canonical scripture is found in Isaiah 34:14 which reads as follows ... The term "Lilith" is not always translated as "Lilith." The original text reads as "lilitu" which does not seem to have a concrete translation.

In other words, the Hebrew does NOT say Lilith. It says something that is unclear, which most translations render "night creature", "screech owl" or something of that nature, but a very tiny handful of mostly fringe translations have chosen to render "Lilith". It could mean Lilith, but there's no clear reason to think that it does. So, to put it another way:

There is no mention of her in the Bible.

 

[Nikud]

When I said, " The term "Lilith" is not always translated as "Lilith." The original text reads as "lilitu" which does not seem to have a concrete translation.", I should have been clearer in my meaning. Many mainstream translations translate it in a variety of ways. Those fringe translations are actually closer to the original language in this case.

It could mean Lilith, but there's no clear reason to think that it does

There's no clear reason to think it means "night creature", "screech owl" like hows it's translated in any of the "nonfringe" who are not always 100% accurate in their translations.
Lilitu and Lilith are interchangeable.

Lilith, is demonic figure of Jewish folklore not only a spirit of darkness, but also a figure of uncontrolled sexuality. Her name and personality are thought to be derived from the class of Mesopotamian demons called lilû (feminine: lilītu), and the name is usually translated as “night monster.” The evil she threatened was usually directed against children and women in childbirth. To the Jews these demons manifested as one entity Lilith.

So with all the other things Isaiah was speacking about that preyed on man, why then a screech owl. As for the vulgate translating litlith as lamia and goat demon as saytr, both Greek monsters, I understand why it fit the Grecco-Roman understanding and distanced itself from Judaism. As for it being translated as night hag, night monster, night creature, all things the demonic entity know as lilith has been called, we can chalk that up to the translators not being familiar with the Jewish perspective that wouldn't have recognized Lilitu not just any type of dark creature but a specific one.

So to put it another way.

The first and only mention of Lilith in canonical scripture is found in Isaiah 34:14

Edit: The midrash that took the Lilith from Isaiah and made her Adams wife to explain what some see as 2 genisis stories of man's creation didn't come into being at least in written form until the middle ages. The way a midrash works is they take individuals mentioned in scripture, usally the ones with the least back story, and use them to explain what was going on in scripture, how the person got to be where there at, their part in how scripture unfolded. All in an attempt get a better understanding of scripture. I'm not saying that Lilith was Adam's first wife, I'm saying that she is in scripture though.

 

[FollowingHim]

Thanks for the clarification, that makes sense.

So scripture never mentions a wife of Adam named "Lilith", or ever hints of another wife in any way. But it does mention some sort of evil being with that name. The association of this being with Adam is a relatively recent myth.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

The satyr here is also referring to the goat man demon. Historically seen as an incubus while Lilith is seen as a succubus.

Interesting how they’re both referenced in the same verse.

 

[rockfox]

Lilith, is demonic figure of Jewish folklore not only a spirit of darkness, but also a figure of uncontrolled sexuality. Her name and personality are thought to be derived from the class of Mesopotamian demons called lilû (feminine: lilītu), and the name is usually translated as “night monster.” The evil she threatened was usually directed against children and women in childbirth. To the Jews these demons manifested as one entity Lilith.

So with all the other things Isaiah was speacking about that preyed on man, why then a screech owl. As for the vulgate translating litlith as lamia and goat demon as saytr, both Greek monsters, I understand why it fit the Grecco-Roman understanding and distanced itself from Judaism. As for it being translated as night hag, night monster, night creature, all things the demonic entity know as lilith has been called, we can chalk that up to the translators not being familiar with the Jewish perspective that wouldn't have recognized Lilitu not just any type of dark creature but a specific one.

The owl is a major symbol in the occult going back thousands of years.

IIRC the lilith succubus connection dates back to Babylon at least. The Adam - Lilith story dates back to some stories written in the intertestemental period. Well at least according to modern scholorship.

 

[Nikud]

The owl is a major symbol in the occult going back thousands of

I also read while refreshing up on the subject of Lilith that the screech owl was one of her forms/ familiars was symbolic of her.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

At one point when I was studying it, I ran across a Satanics site that appeared very knowledgeable re Lilith. They listed her son as Mastema with Satan the father. If you look it up, Mastema is portrayed as a Satyr in all of the pics I saw. I’m not saying that this is conclusive or really means anything other than they certainly believed it.

Another site seemed to indicate that Lilith was actually a demon that in male form is called Satan and in female form is called either Lilith or Satana

I’m not really sure what’s believable in this and shortly thereafter I definitely felt a check in my spirit and backed off this line of study.

 

[Cap]

There is a midrash that claims that Adam had a first wife before Eve. This interpretation arises from the two creation stories of Genesis: In Genesis 1, man and woman are created at the same time, while in Genesis 2 Adam precedes Eve. The Midrash suggest that the first creation story is a different creation, in which Adam has a wife made, like him, from the earth. Lilith refuses to be submissive to Adam and flees ,and so G-d makes Adam a second wife, Eve. Hence the reason G-d hates divorce.

So let's assume that this story is true. God created Adam and Lilith and the rest of mankind in genisis 1. Then Lilith rebeled and became Isaiah 14;12, or something like that. God then placed Adam in the Garden in Genisis 2 and created Eve from Adam.

That would explain the Adam and Eve story about the apple as being about sexual desire, ultimately coming from Lilith. Satan, taught by Lilith taught Eve about sex, who then taught Adam, which came the curse of mankind. Cain was from Satan. Abel from Adam. And the two blood lines have been at war ever since. If man was created in Genisis 1 separate from Adam then that explains where Cain got his wife.

And it would seem, the situation between Adam and Lilith could explain why, as you state, God hates divorce. And the rest is history.

Speculation, and rum, of course.

 

[FollowingHim]

Satan, taught by Lilith taught Eve about sex, who then taught Adam, which came the curse of mankind.

Except that God's only positive command to Adam and Eve was "have sex" ("be fruitful and multiply"). So sex came from God, directly, and has nothing to do with Satan. Sex isn't sinful.
This entire myth is a complete reversal of the true order of things.