People with narcissistic tendencies don’t concern themselves with what others may feel.
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Okay, I really enjoy new angles or lines of thought Cap. You usually do an excellent job of presenting those.
The "baggage" issue is huge today because everyone has a story. Some are longer than others, more complicated, convoluted, and twisted than others. The worse it is, the more broken and in need of Yeshua's divine healing. Some aren't even aware they are broken--they think they're "good" and that's why they justify their hurtful actions. Healing takes time, lots of time, and then more time--something we Americans don't want to take. In order to heal and shed the baggage, the brokenness often becomes more broken as tears carry the oxygen to the wounds that must have air to heal. The "microwave" instant, snap-your-fingers, twinkle-your-nose, entitlement mindset pervades and permeates our society. It's disgusting when we identify it in others; harder to see in our own mirror!
That's why I appreciate this thread. Some things are being hammered out on the anvil of community as we interact. Relationship of any sort is a gift, whether casual or serious, growing or waning, consistent or fleeting. This new concept of BF adds angles and dimensions which monogamous relationships never face. If those are difficult and trying, how much more PM relationships. I certainly don't envy the men who feel God's leading and calling into the embrace of poly, for at their door lies the responsibility for their existing relationships--the Adoneship. It hurts my head to think of the courage, face time before God, discernment, and strength a man must have to follow this path.
Genesis 3:7 (KJV) And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
It sounds simultaneous, but was it? Can we definitively know?
I would suggest that when she ate there wasn’t a delayed reaction until after he had eaten.
I believe that after she ate, she started reacting to what she was seeing and Adam immediately realized that she was having an experience that he was outside of. He needed no coaxing because he was probably already getting jealous.
It sounds simultaneous, but was it? Can we definitively know?
I would suggest that when she ate there wasn’t a delayed reaction until after he had eaten.
I believe that after she ate, she started reacting to what she was seeing and Adam immediately realized that she was having an experience that he was outside of. He needed no coaxing because he was probably already getting jealous.
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BeingHeld
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I wish I could push the like button more than once! Your last sentence is so very true. I'm just glad God made me a woman who gets to follow the man.
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Cap
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I think you are on to something, and I would just like to add another hypothetical possibility. What if, the story of Adam and Eve is the same story of Christ dieing for the church, and Adam willfully ate the apple so he would follow Eve into death, to save her.
Haven't quite figured it all out but it does seem possible.
We can't know definitively. However, I think it is best to take this as a chronological account unless we have a specific reason to think otherwise.
Remember that it is only the church that blames Eve. Scripture clearly blames Adam far more strongly - through the first Adam came death, through the last Adam comes life. It was actually Eve who ate first, but Adam gets the bulk of the blame. If the consequences started to come when Eve ate, then death did not come through Adam, but through Eve.
So I read this at face-value, as a chronological account. Eve ate, nothing happened, Adam ate, stuff happened to both of them, because it was ultimately his responsibility and the consequences did not fall until the head sinned (and affirmed rather than opposing the sin of his wife).
Agreed. And this is an important fact for the polygamists as it helps to establish that the Adam and Eve story is not a story of monogamy, but rather a story of patriarchy.
Adam was to blame for the very fact that Eve ate. He was standing right there and did not speak up against the deception.
That might be why she said that she was “thoroughly deceived”, because she was accepting his silence as agreement with the experiment.
He didn’t say anything to dissuade her, to help protect her from the deception.
Death came because he allowed her to eat, it was on him even though she ate first.
Very true!
Hmmm---again, I've never considered those thoughts, but then it's easier for men to know how men think.
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Good point on patriarchy.
Do you believe Adam had more than one wife? Is there any evidence for this in Jewish oral tradition, the Talmud, etc.? If he didn't, then it is the story of both patriarchy and monogomy.
Not to open a can of worms--but then there's Lilith
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Cap
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@rejoicinghandmaid, we crossed posts but you bring up an interesting thought. As with everything in God's Word, there is a deeper meaning. Thank you for your insight.
Lilith has been discussed in detail on this thread. My take is that she's an entirely mythological character the story of whom comes from very unGodly origins and is not worth paying attention to. As far as we know, Adam had one wife - and if he had more he'd have been marrying his own daughter, plausible but not likely.Do you believe Adam had more than one wife?
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Not to open a can of worms--but then there's Lilith
No, it's still just the story of patriarchy. "Monogamy" and "Polygamy" are never mentioned in scripture, they're extra-biblical concepts. Both are just "marriage" in scripture, there is no distinction.
Just the church? Paul (1 Timothy 2:14) might disagree. Even God, "What is this you have done?" But I get what you're saying: it was ultimately accounted to Adam for he was the head. But I think it is fair to say they were both to blame; guilt is not a zero sum game and they both bore consequences for there sin, which even today women chaff against.
Understanding this helps understand a lot about the differences in the sexes; especially their weaknesses.
Eve was deceived. She knew the truth but fully convinced herself the opposite. This wasn't a hard to understand matter. It was a simple, straightforward command. Nor was this a weighty matter. All their needs were provided; they had anything they could want, no rules, and walked with God Himself. Just one small thing they were not allowed and she couldn't keep herself from it. Envy and feelings were her downfall. Everything was perfect but even that was not enough. You can see all this in the way the serpent tempted her.
Adam was not deceived. Adam knew better but did it anyway; The serpent didn't even bother tempting him. Adam choose to follow a woman instead of God. He loved her more than Him and couldn't bear to contradict her nor loose her. He knew the consequences of disobedience, he knew God could create him a new and equally wonderful women (some extra-Biblical texts even say Eve was the second woman created) but he couldn't bear to be without Eve; choosing to die with her rather than live apart.
We see this same behavior in men today: following their wife instead of leading, not enforcing their will, falling in puppy love and ignoring all the flashing warning signs about dangerous women, allowing wives to use the threat of divorce or cutting off sex to control the marriage. You can see this in the excuse Adam gave, Gen 3:12, as he tried to pass off blame; as if she was in charge. You can see this in our romantic stories and in our sayings, 'I can't live without you', as if a woman should be the center of our world and not God.
Assumptions or observations? Is it an assumption to say Eve was deceived? Did not she say that; as well as Paul when he used that as basis for his teachings? I could go on, but I won't.
The question was 'why' and the text didn't say. Since the text doesn't go into an grand exposition we are left to use our intellect to fully understand things. It is not unlike a moral folktale in this manner; and you can see how the story of the garden shares as much with those as with dry history. The question for the reader is, does my narrative fit the text and what we can observe all around us about human nature; even if it makes us uncomfortable?
The Adam did it for love narrative is something the church (everyone I've been to) has tried shoved down my throat. It's the root of the Disney fairytale theme, your not supose to let anything come between you and your one true love.
Here's my understanding.
When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it had a pleasing appearance and that the tree was desirable for making one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her; and he ate. [Adam was did not use his G-d given authority to stop her. I reject the churches explanation that she later found Adam and shared it. That he wasn't actually there. That's not what is said.]
Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked. So they sewed fig leaves together to make themselves loincloths.
They heard the voice of ADONAI, G-d, walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, so the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of ADONAI, G-d, among the trees in the garden.
ADONAI, G-d, called to the man, "Where are you?"
He answered, "I heard your voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, so I hid myself."
He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree from which I ordered you not to eat?"
The man replied, "The woman you gave [to be] with me - she gave me fruit from the tree, and I ate." [Refused to be accountable for the Authority G-d gave him]
ADONAI, G-d, said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman answered, "The serpent tricked me, so I ate."
ADONAI, G-d, said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all livestock and wild animals. You will crawl on your belly and eat dust as long as you live. [The serpent was still with them]
I will put animosity between you and the woman, and between your descendant and her descendant; he will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel." [punishment for his deception]
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pain in childbirth. You will bring forth children in pain. Your desire will be toward your husband, but he will rule over you." [punishment for convincing Adam to eat]
To Adam he said, "Because you listened to what your wife said and ate from the tree about which I gave you the order, 'You are not to eat from it,' the ground is cursed on your account; you will work hard to eat from it as long as you live. [punishment for refusing to use his G-d given Authority]
They both faced death and seperation from G-d as their punishment for disobeying Him but ultimately Adam was held responsible because he refused to use the Authority given to him by G-d and srop her.
Where your see it the he did it because "he couldn't bear to be without Eve; choosing to die with her rather than live apart." I see it as Adam refusing to step up and be accountable, to lead.
That's a theme repeated over and over. Man refuses to use the Authority G-d gave him for many reasons. The men who come to their senses and don't reject the Authority G-d gave them become Heros, the ones that do become villians.
Look at how G-d had to Choose Deborah because "all the men of Israel did what was right in their own eyes". She had to convince Barak to lead, he did step up and lead and thats why he is lauded in Hebrews 11. The men who are praised in scripture are praised when the exerted the Authority given to them by G-d and obeyed His will.
Hebrews 11:32
And what more shall I say? For time would fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets. By faith they conquered kingdoms, administered justice, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, and made foreign armies flee.
The second Adam did what the first did not. He wielded G-ds Authority and was Himself accountable for the sins of others. I know it makes alot of men uncomfortable with the fact that no matter what reason we give or what we point our finger at and say but L-rd it was _______ fault, we are still the ones accountable for not exerting our G-d given Authority.
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Cap
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To understand the story of Adam and Eve one has to come to a place of understanding what Christ did for the church, for the world. Christ became sin to save the world. Adam became sin for Eve to save her. Adam is Christ, Eve is the church, the world. And if you take it even further, Adam/Christ is God and Eve/Church is Creation. God saves His Creation, and it's all based on Love.
So it is a love story. All of it.
It's all about Authority and the willingness to submit oneself to Love.
Mark 10:42-45 Jesus called [the disciples] together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.
Adam and Christ are connected. Why would Christ succeed but Adam fail? Except that it was part of the plan of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
The story of Adam and Eve is the story of God saving the world, at least in my mind.
Adam became sin for Eve to save her.
No way could this be true! Ish was a human being just like Isha. He couldn't have saved her if his life had depended on it. He was mortal. Therefore he had a choice just like Isha did. He chose to sin rather than to obey God's command. His solution to their dilemma, trying to "fix it" before Adoni, GOD showed up for the evening walk is a clear example of works salvation. The sewing of the leaves to cover their knowledge of sin was the best Ish could come up with, or maybe it was Isha's idea, or maybe they decided it together. I would say Ish's since men are the ones in the lead and usually try to fix things. At this point I'm sure he was aware that he'd fumbled the ball and was doing everything possible to redeem the situation. Planet Earth's entire paradigmn had shifted forever and there was no returning to the point of innocence. The only thing that could be done now was await judgment for all parties involved and an atonement be made for the sin (which is always a covering) until THE Final Atonement would be made some 4,000 years later, Yeshua.
When Adoni, GOD, slew a blood sacrifice and made coats of skin for Ish and Isha, their acceptance of what He had done and was offering, demonstrated by their putting on the coats of skin as a covering instead of insisting their sewn leaves were good enough, is the first example of looking to the cross for salvation as a faith system of belief, just as we look back on the cross believing in Christ's blood sacrifice today. Again, at this juncture, both both Ish and Isha had an individual choice to make. They both chose to accept the free gift of the blood sacrifice offered by Adoni, GOD.
This very choice, works in what we can do vs. a blood sacrifice, is the crux of the matter between Cain and Able. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Cain's was a works offering that had the appearance of a blood sacrifice--pulse that was red. That's why the LORD God refused it. That's why Cain's countenance fell--he'd done such a good job of making it look like the real deal, he truly thought it would work. Able's was a blood sacrifice, and that's why his was accepted. Cain could have bartered with Able for an animal and killed it to offer as a blood sacrifice also. He wanted to prove that the work of his hands would be just as good. I truly believe Adam and Eve had many conversations attempting to instruct their boys in the ways of Adonai. Any good parent would want their children to avoid the mistakes they had made.
Ish didn't become sin for Isha. Ish didn't die for Isha. They each made a personal choice to walk against light. They each had to make a personal choice to accept the animal skin covering from Adoni. They each had to decide if they would accept Adoni's love in the midst of His judgment.