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Torah vs Grace?

The first death wasn't the end, I see no reason why the second must be. "will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." speaks of ongoing torment. I'm fine with that if it's God's will; I don't expect Him to be a nice God.
 
frederick said:
That's interesting. Are you saying Jesus Christ, in the incarnation, was a lesser god than the Father; that He is a god of similar substance to the Father but not equal to the Father? Just needing clarification.
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Jesus is an actual begotten Son of God!
Not an incarnation but rather a new life, a new soul a new being.
Jesus was sinless, but born as a man. Adam was created without sin so Jesus was born without sin.
Man was made in the IMAGE AND LIKENESS of God so much that God could have a Son by a woman.
Adam had an anointing of Glory upon him when he was created.
Jesus was made in the likeness of sinful flesh i.e. he had no visible glory or halo upon him.
Jesus was faithful and obedient (Adam was not) Jesus is now glorified to the same level as the Father.
We shall also be glorified but to a lessor degree than Jesus is.
Now we are the sons of God and we shall be like Him
He was born sinless and lived and died sinless! He is the begotten of the Father. He is the chosen one and the favorite Son!
We are adopted back and reborn by the Spirit, we are sons by creation but Jesus was a son by physical and spiritual birth.
In the beginning was the Word (something said) a promise/prophecy that God would have a Son.
The Word became flesh! (conceived in Mary and Jesus was birthed)
Here O Israel the Lord our God is one.
God not Jesus is the creator
God is now an actual Father
Jesus is an actual Son this is not just a show!

Is being an actual father of a begotten son something God could not do! So that we and He must be content with a charade?

The overwhelming majority of scriptures speak of the Father/Son relationship in simple terms.
a few scriptures figurative in nature are used to justify conscious preexistence.
The scripture also says Levy payed Tithe in Abraham yet we do not ascribe preexistence to Levi.

If we conform the few scriptures into the understanding of the true father/son relationship and understand them as prophetic then a simple explanation follows. If we try to conform the bulk of the plain language into the figurative and prophetic language a contorted image is produced.
 
And that is a bridge too far for me but we’ve this conversation before and I imagine this one would go the same way. For posterity and my own sanity I will simply say, NOT!!
 
Jim an Apostle said:
Jesus is an actual begotten Son of God!
Not an incarnation but rather a new life, a new soul a new being.
Jesus was sinless, but born as a man. Adam was created without sin so Jesus was born without sin.
Man was made in the IMAGE AND LIKENESS of God so much that God could have a Son by a woman.
Adam had an anointing of Glory upon him when he was created.
Jesus was made in the likeness of sinful flesh i.e. he had no visible glory or halo upon him.
Jesus was faithful and obedient (Adam was not) Jesus is now glorified to the same level as the Father.
We shall also be glorified but to a lessor degree than Jesus is.
Now we are the sons of God and we shall be like Him
He was born sinless and lived and died sinless! He is the begotten of the Father. He is the chosen one and the favorite Son!
We are adopted back and reborn by the Spirit, we are sons by creation but Jesus was a son by physical and spiritual birth.
In the beginning was the Word (something said) a promise/prophecy that God would have a Son.
The Word became flesh! (conceived in Mary and Jesus was birthed)
Here O Israel the Lord our God is one.
God not Jesus is the creator
God is now an actual Father
Jesus is an actual Son this is not just a show!

Is being an actual father of a begotten son something God could not do! So that we and He must be content with a charade?

The overwhelming majority of scriptures speak of the Father/Son relationship in simple terms.
a few scriptures figurative in nature are used to justify conscious preexistence.
The scripture also says Levy payed Tithe in Abraham yet we do not ascribe preexistence to Levi.

If we conform the few scriptures into the understanding of the true father/son relationship and understand them as prophetic then a simple explanation follows. If we try to conform the bulk of the plain language into the figurative and prophetic language a contorted image is produced.
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Let's start off with what God says; it's not contorted at all.
Deut. 5:7 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
Is. 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God."
Is 45:18 For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other."
And one more. Is 45:21 "... And there is no other God besides me, A just God and a Savior, There is none besides Me."
After the resurrection Jesus appeared to His disciples. John 20:28; And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God."
Writing of Jesus Christ, in his epistle to the saints at Collose, Paul wrote saying, He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist (Col. 1:15-17).
In his epistle to Titus, Paul wrote of "looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

There is only one eternal God and creator who is the Savior, and Jesus Christ is addressed as the eternal God, creator and Savior.

There's nothing difficult to understand; it's not figurative and prophetic language producing a contorted image. If we start with what God says about Himself and not our presuppositions, the message is usually fairly simple and straight forward. Shalom.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
I’m just gonna say, “before Abraham was, I AM. As well as the question Christ posed about David calling the Messiah Lord, yet unborn.
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That is a specific reference to:
Exodus 3:14 NASB
God said to Moses, “ I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘ I AM has sent me to you.’” I think this carries even more weight when it is read in Hebrew. Perhaps @IshChayil can provide some additional info?

Yeshua is usually referred to as "The Angel of The LORD" throughout the Tanakh.

Genesis 32:24-30 NASB
Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. [25] When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob’s thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him. [26] Then he said, “Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.” But he said, “ I will not let you go unless you bless me.” [27] So he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” [28] He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.” [29] Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there. [30] So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “ I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.”


Hosea 12:4-5 NASB
Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed; He wept and sought His favor. He found Him at Bethel And there He spoke with us, [5] Even the LORD, the God of hosts, The LORD is His name.

This was Yeshua. Remember no man can see God (the father) and live. That is why Yah had to hide himself from Moses on Mt. Sinai and only let him see his back.
 
Cap said:
God can create anything but He can't create something? Doesn't make sense to me. God does give free will, but He as a loving Father controls that free will which leads to His glory.
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It makes sense that God creates free-will that is NOT free??

That for sure makes no sense . . . free will is either free or it is not.

If God is "in control" there are sure a lot of people doing things He commanded not to be done. that does not square either.
 
frederick said:
After the resurrection Jesus appeared to His disciples. John 20:28; And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God."
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Interestingly, Theos was not applied to Jesus Till AFTER the resurrection.

How about this, after the resurrection Jesus said:

King James Bible John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Jesus called God the Father His God? humm...
 
Jim an Apostle said:
It makes sense that God creates free-will that is NOT free??

That for sure makes no sense . . . free will is either free or it is not.

If God is "in control" there are sure a lot of people doing things He commanded not to be done. that does not square either.
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John 8:32 and you will dknow the truth, and the truth ewill set you free.”

Romans 6:17–18 But othanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the pstandard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, qhaving been set free from sin, rhave become slaves of righteousness.

How can someone have free will if they are not free? The idea that free will is an autonomous human act separate from God is not taught in scripture. We have the free will to make choices, but those choices are provided by God for His Glory.

How can an unsaved person have free will if he is a slave to sin. And how could a saved person choose to sin. (If a saved person chose to sin then he wasn't saved in the first place, he is still a slave to sin and he wasn't acting on free will.)
 
Cap said:
John 8:32 and you will dknow the truth, and the truth ewill set you free.”

Romans 6:17–18 But othanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the pstandard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, qhaving been set free from sin, rhave become slaves of righteousness.

How can someone have free will if they are not free? The idea that free will is an autonomous human act separate from God is not taught in scripture. We have the free will to make choices, but those choices are provided by God for His Glory.

How can an unsaved person have free will if he is a slave to sin. And how could a saved person choose to sin. (If a saved person chose to sin then he wasn't saved in the first place, he is still a slave to sin and he wasn't acting on free will.)
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this is absurd! the rapist is not acting in the will of God! nor to bring glory to God!
 
Jim an Apostle said:
this is absurd! the rapist is not acting in the will of God! nor to bring glory to God!
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Ask Tamar.

Show where in scripture your defined definition of free will. Don't be so unfriendly, and it's not absurd, it's just not what you see. Besides, I'll be forced to respond in kind and then get called out for it.
 
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Pacman said:
So it keeps getting brought up by someone that Torah keepers are somehow ignoring grace or that the two concepts some how are opposed to each other. So Torah keepers. How does grace fit in? And for those who came to Torah out of modern Christianity how is it different than you understood it before?[/QUOTE
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Hi All, I’m new here, and I have never heard the term Torah keeper before? What is it?
 
Jopi said:
Hi All, I’m new here, and I have never heard the term Torah keeper before? What is it?
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The Torah, is the word used to describe the first five books of the OT.
 
Daniel DeLuca said:
The Torah, is the word used to describe the first five books of the OT.
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Thank you for your reply, I am aware of what the Torah is. I ment specifically the term Torah keeper, I’ve never heard that term before. I did try to google it but haven’t had much luck finding information on it.
 
Jopi said:
Thank you for your reply, I am aware of what the Torah is. I ment specifically the term Torah keeper, I’ve never heard that term before. I did try to google it but haven’t had much luck finding information on it.
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Basic answer is we don’t believe that the Torah has changed and we believe it is still the standard for righteousness that God desires us to live our lives by. So the common church teaching that eating pork and shellfish is ok or that we don’t need to keep the sabbath is a false teaching. And that false teaching is based on a misunderstanding of what the New Testament (usually Paul) teaches regarding those things.
 
Jopi said:
Thank you for your reply, I am aware of what the Torah is. I ment specifically the term Torah keeper, I’ve never heard that term before. I did try to google it but haven’t had much luck finding information on it.
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@Pacman said it as well as it could be said. Sometimes we’ll call ourselves Torah observant or Hebrew Roots and we have some similarities with Messianic Jews and even some branches or Seventh Day Adventist’s. It’s a very broad movement and sometimes those on the fringes can stray in to some extreme weirdness so you have to be careful.

If I had to put it in to a nutshell we believe that God’s Words are eternal and that for the most parts the Commands He gave us in the Old Testament are still in effect. After that there’s not one definition.
 
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