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Torah vs Grace?

Pacman

Pacman

Seasoned Member
Real Person
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So it keeps getting brought up by someone that Torah keepers are somehow ignoring grace or that the two concepts some how are opposed to each other. So Torah keepers. How does grace fit in? And for those who came to Torah out of modern Christianity how is it different than you understood it before?
 
Funny, I was thinking of starting a thread like this on the other side. I'll stay out of this one though so I can learn as well.
 
First huge change in my thinking came when I truly realized Grace came with Creation. Grace is usually seen as the manifestation of salvation of sinners, but it is the free and unmerited favor of God and the bestowal of blessings. Which includes Torah and Salvation. He didn't have to give any of this to us but He did. That was the free part, His choice and unmerited favor, nothing we did to earn or deserve it. I depart from most believers at this part. I don't believe that free is at all referring to us not having to do anything. Just the fact that he freely gave "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." Unmerited favor from the beginning. Freely given. More importantly He walked with Adam. Fellowship. He gave man instruction and set Adam to work expecting obedience, that shows we had responsibilities to Him from the beginning. Its because of Grace He gave us the promise of Salvation and Torah, the truth about what is pleasing to Him and unpleasing. The instruction manuel on how to in away that is pleasing. He has continued to freely give His unmerited favor from creation through Yeshua to now.
 
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I was thinking along the same lines as @Kevin , grace and mercy throughout the OT.
But then you get into the “Dispensation of Grace”, and you have Ananias and Saphira struck down for lying.

I accept whatever it is and attempt to walk righteously.
 
Torah vs. Grace? What is the difference? If we recognize Yeshua/ Jesus we have both Grace and more important Mercy. The Mercy that we do not receive the judgement that He took for us. How we live is up to what we each believe and have been directed by His Set Apart Spirit. The only qualification He put on us for salvation is to believe in Him. Love each other and be blessed.
I look forward to the discussion in this thread.
 
I see tora as a guide to living a set apart life and a set of laws for Gods people. It is a good way to keep your focus on God by living by his righteous ways. Obviously we can’t do it perfectly and we need grace. We are blessed to have been sent Jesus. I tend to think we shouldn’t be lawless. I think Tora should not be something to boast on or a way to obtain righteousness but it is something to love, study and follow.
I don’t fully understand everything but this is how I currently see it as I read the Bible KJV/Geneva translations
 
For me when Christ said he didn't come to change one jot or tittle of the law, just to fulfill. To me that understanding is that i don't have to kill x number of animals for my sin to be forgiven. Believe in him and follow the rules. He fulfill the sacrifice. No more animals to be killed for that. There is not enough animals on this earth to cover the sins of man now.
 
Grace and Torah (God's instructions in righteousness) are inextricably entwined. If there is no Torah, there can be no grace. Neither is there any need..

As @Kevin said, God even telling us what He desires and how to approach when we fail (fulfilled in Yeshua) is itself grace and mercy.

Fact is, we can't perfectly walk out Torah. We fail. But, that is no excuse not to try. The amazing thing is that built right into Torah are the means and elements of grace that protect us when we do fail.

What a wise and merciful Elohim!
 
Not a new concept for us....read this book many years ago. The author did a polygamy study as well.
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All great posts above!
 
I know I said I wasn't going to post in here, but I did have something to say. I don't think the issue is Torah VS Grace. They are not opposites fighting each other. To understand Grace one has to understand the Law. And to realize what has been paid, or given Grace for, one has to know the Law or what they are unable to fulfill.

I think the issue is more the differences between the the old covenant and the new covenant. But, even that is not fully it, its more to understand the new covenant one has to understand the old. And a deeper issue is who is the correct priesthood that is governing each covenant, and even which one is in charge of them all. If Abraham was technically the head priest on earth at the time, by what authority did he offer sacrifice to the head priest higher than him? And aren't we to do the same.

And this I think is the real problem between those who say they follow Torah (old covenant) and those who follow Grace (new covenant). It's not that the Grace people want to do away with the Law, and I don't think the Law people want to do away with Grace. It's actually all in the ideas of discipline.

Cap said:
What if Adam willfully ate the apple knowing that was the only way to save her. Not unlike Christ becoming sin to save the church.

1 Timothy 21:4And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
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PeteR said:
No, I think Adam had another option after she had eaten. He could gave manned up and turned to Elohim and said, 'I messed up and did not cover my woman. I did not stop her when she ate. Do with ME what is right...'

What you are doing is making Adam out to be a hero for rebelling and following her instead of standing for righteousness.

Fact: All mankind, indeed, all of Creation suffers because Adam did the wrong thing(s).
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The idea of the Law was to show us that we can't keep the Law. The idea of Grace is that God will keep it for us but we have to have faith that He can do that and that He will save us. Now, in those things we love God because of what He is able to do and we each find was to show that love. If someone wants to follow God out of love by demonstrating that following His Laws in the Old Covenant to the best of their ability than that is exactly want it is, love for the Creator for them. But that doesn't make anyone else wrong for understanding that same Law from a spiritual purpose and loving God from a different point of view.

The hard part is, I think, that the Law people want Law people to help them in the love they want to show God, and the Grace people want Grace people to help them in their faith to Love God the way they see Him. So each side fights to get people to their side.
 
I think perhaps that part of the issue that divides is that obviously not following biblical law causes a huge fallout in every facet of society. The homosexuals for example when not sufficiently condemned by society and judgement applied creates more lawlessness as those sinners make disciples of others vulnerable to that dysfunction.

So if this kind of issue is being contemplated or viewed with seeing eyes by pro Torah individuals, they are certain to object to any part of Torah being removed....because who gets to decide, and where does it stop?

I find the most peace when my own faults and failings are remembered and I NEED grace myself....I am also kinder and more forgiving.
The sin and lawlessness in the world demonstrates the need for Torah and the love of God in giving us His perfect standard of righteousness. But if we couldn't see the problem...if it didn't exist, would we even be able to see that Torah is the solution?

I know that messiah reigns now. That He has the power and authority to put all enemies under His feet, and that sin and death are going to be at some point no more.
I am going to talk Torah and affirm it as the only standard of righteousness, even if I cannot do it all....and knowing that I can't maybe I don't literally remove leaven (yeast) from my home once a year. But understanding the meaning I DO remove any movie if I see it is teaching sin any time all year, and talk to the children about wrong ideas expressed in films. My number one pet peeve with movies is when they are not true to life and the sin or wrong appears to be done without consequence.

I'm glad the judge is just, and merciful, because there is a lot I still need to work on changing in the one in the mirror!

That is where the battle is fought, the kingdom of heaven....or the lusts of the flesh. Which are we supporting inside us?
 
I haven't taken the time to see what other stuff Pastor Tchividjian has done but he does a very good job of capturing my understand of the difference between Law and Gospel (Grace).

 
Cap said:
I know I said I wasn't going to post in here, but I did have something to say. I don't think the issue is Torah VS Grace. They are not opposites fighting each other. To understand Grace one has to understand the Law. And to realize what has been paid, or given Grace for, one has to know the Law or what they are unable to fulfill.

I think the issue is more the differences between the the old covenant and the new covenant. But, even that is not fully it, its more to understand the new covenant one has to understand the old. And a deeper issue is who is the correct priesthood that is governing each covenant, and even which one is in charge of them all. If Abraham was technically the head priest on earth at the time, by what authority did he offer sacrifice to the head priest higher than him? And aren't we to do the same.

And this I think is the real problem between those who say they follow Torah (old covenant) and those who follow Grace (new covenant). It's not that the Grace people want to do away with the Law, and I don't think the Law people want to do away with Grace. It's actually all in the ideas of discipline.





The idea of the Law was to show us that we can't keep the Law. The idea of Grace is that God will keep it for us but we have to have faith that He can do that and that He will save us. Now, in those things we love God because of what He is able to do and we each find was to show that love. If someone wants to follow God out of love by demonstrating that following His Laws in the Old Covenant to the best of their ability than that is exactly want it is, love for the Creator for them. But that doesn't make anyone else wrong for understanding that same Law from a spiritual purpose and loving God from a different point of view.

The hard part is, I think, that the Law people want Law people to help them in the love they want to show God, and the Grace people want Grace people to help them in their faith to Love God the way they see Him. So each side fights to get people to their side.
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There are so many things wrong with this post... I don’t want this to turn into another Torah vs anti Torah thread so I am going to just leave it alone except to say there is almost nothing in that post that I agree with...
 
Mage said:
I haven't taken the time to see what other stuff Pastor Tchividjian has done but he does a very good job of capturing my understand of the difference between Law and Gospel (Grace).

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He was no help to me.
 
Pacman said:
There are so many things wrong with this post... I don’t want this to turn into another Torah vs anti Torah thread so I am going to just leave it alone except to say there is almost nothing in that post that I agree with...
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Law vs Grace, I thought that's what this thread WAS about. ;)

I'll try not to post anymore here.
 
Now don't laugh at me (I'm kidding, I love being the center of attention) but one of the more interesting looks at this dichotomy is the book and musical Les Miserables.

When you look at it from the angle that Valjean is under grace and Javert represents the Law without grace it gets very interesting.
 
ZecAustin said:
When you look at it from the angle that Valjean is under grace and Javert represents the Law without grace it gets very interesting
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Funny thing is Im using this in a preface for a book I'm writting to show grace and law side by side. The Preist shows Valjean Grace He later becomes a Mayor (the law) and uses the law and the authority that comes with it to show grace.

Confession, repentance, mercy, mans attempt to enforce law how he sees it should be done.

Its a great to book show Grace and Law side by side vs Law backed by man's authority (interpretation).
 
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