But there is no point in making heathens part of the equation.
Hopefully we have a higher standard, but we are proving here that most don’t.
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The ungodly man
- Thread starter NVIII
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Hopefully we have a higher standard, but we are proving here that most don’t.
Heck I worked with a heathen who knocked up a stripper and he was devastated when she aborted the baby. It’s pretty rare even among heathens that the man demands the abortion... maybe not in Hollywood, but in real life.
I believe marriage is an holy institution of God, even if not regarded as such, anyone married is simply following a blueprint laid out by the creator. In other non western countries they tend to do marriage more biblically, actually. Husbands are still accountable for what they do even if they don't believe what i believe. If a husband in India, who isn't Christian, tells his wife to abort, is it any less murder? Everyone will be held accountable, for everything they do, no?
“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
Revelation 20:13
It doesn’t, that I know of.
It’s only logical.
It’s interesting that it never mentions what a woman is to do in such a situation, could it be such an outlier that Yah chose to ignore it?
But it remains the central argument of women who don’t want to be led.
Think about that for a few.
Yes! And of men who don't want to accept responsibility. ("She didn't have to do it. She should have known better. She could have left. Obey me, but only if what I'm saying is right, otherwise it's your fault. The woman You put here with me....")
@steve @Asforme&myhouse I don't argue for woman's emancipation, i know in going against some of you it may seem like that. For the woman, it is a slippery slope, to gain advantage. For me, the argument stops there, at sin. If she is told to abort the child, in your eyes she is to say no just like i'm saying, and separate.
Really, you are saying the same thing as me. It's just that I see refusal and separation as defiance as well. Which is the point that I am making. She is to defy in biblical sin.
Good point.
A righteous man, which Adam was failing to be at the time, stands before Yah and bears the sin of his household.
Leaving is a way to seek a better solution, it’s not a similar defiance as staying there and refusing to obey.
The spirit of the act isn’t the same.
Husband: "Kill the baby"
Wife: "I refuse to sin against God, I'll leave if i must"
How is that not an act of defiance?
Do you think that a husband who is requiring an abortion is a safe person to defy and still live with?
This happens often. You just know little about the subject, and assume too much.
Look into live action, the biggest pro life advocates in America who are in the fields daily fighting against abortion. Those wives who abort due to their husbands continue to live with them, peacefully, and everything, as they did before. They just live with a huge gaping hole in their chest now, if they still have a conscience. Live Action speaks on husbands making their wives abort occasionally, which is often enough. This point you keep making is from a lack of knowledge.
But with that out of the way, you are evading the question man. We are in complete agreeance, you are already on my side in saying that a woman should leave her husband in such a case, but now you are unwilling to call that defiance. It is definitely defiance for her to refuse him and leave him. But it is the Biblical option that she has, which has always been my point. And that is what she should do, before God.
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The whole extreme scenario thing to prove a point really doesn’t prove anything. The scenario of a christian man demanding his wife kill, or lie, or steal lacks realism that would be there in a real life scenario. There are a number of steps in a real life scenario that have been totally skipped that makes it even more of a stretch. For instance, has the wife already fallen on her knees before her evil christian husband and begged him not to force her to rape and pillage the neighbors? Has she tried to reason with him? If a woman is truly married to Jack the Ripper, she should leave for her own safety, at least until God has time deal with him. But I think in a real life scenario this is obvious to any reasonable person. The problem is that this extreme scenario is then often shoehorned into an argument that a wife can decide her husband is disappointing and therefore ungodly and she need not follow him unless he is doing what she thinks is godly christlike behavior. Like Steve just said, if a man is demanding the death of his child, is he safe to live with? If he’s not safe to live with, then leave. If he is safe and reasonable then reason with him and follow his lead.
My wife just made an interesting comment to me about obeying and following. She had to ask herself how much she trusted God in submitting in all things. It was a question of her own faith, is her God big enough to rescue her out of any situation... like Sarah in Abimelech’s house or Isaac under Abraham’s knife. Or even the situation with Abigail and Nabal. Nabal was a foolish, evil man who put his entire household in danger of eminent death and yet Abigail protected his life with her wisdom... then God took care of the situation. God is big enough to save.
My wife just made an interesting comment to me about obeying and following. She had to ask herself how much she trusted God in submitting in all things. It was a question of her own faith, is her God big enough to rescue her out of any situation... like Sarah in Abimelech’s house or Isaac under Abraham’s knife. Or even the situation with Abigail and Nabal. Nabal was a foolish, evil man who put his entire household in danger of eminent death and yet Abigail protected his life with her wisdom... then God took care of the situation. God is big enough to save.
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What I've written isn't any extreme scenario, not at all. You may just not be well versed in the pro-life movement is all. Neither am I. My wife always relays information to me about different testimonies, and husbands forcing abortion, isn't as rare as you'd think. It isn't fair to turn every argument into an statistical anomaly instead of addressing it as an actual question.
Another situation then, that also isn't rare. Say a woman comes to Christ in indonesia, and her Hindu husband has idols in the home that he worships. Is she to obey and worship those idols with him when he commands her to? If no, and you say she is to the leave, is that not what you would call an allowable form of defiance?
The man is still her husband, and the Christian wife is still told to obey in everything, and be subject to her husband. Is saying no and leaving, defiance? yay or nay, my brothers.
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Do you have any stats at all concerning Christian men?
Or is this just another way to smear patriarchy by making broad, unsupported statements that include the heathen?
You evade the question and change the subject a lot. And the questions your asking now I've already answered in previous posts. I feel that I agree with you enough that I no longer feel the need to debate you, to be honest. You'll just keep moving the goalpost instead of scoring. Why should I waste time, when I've past proven my point. No offense to you.
Have a good day Steve, don't stress off of me anymore. Seriously. You've already been a help to me in the short time I've been on this forum. God bless the rest of your day. I hope we find more common ground in the future.
But these scenarios ARE extreme, and obvious. These violate direct and unambiguous commands of God. Let me give you a real scenario, one that my family and I witnessed when I was growing up. A sweet christlike woman who attended our church was married to an unbeliever and I mean an extreme unbeliever. During a ladies Bible study they were talking about submission and the other ladies were talking about where they draw the line. This said she was called to submit in all things. The other ladies were incredulous and asked, but what if he forced you to smoke pot?! Her answer was, I would ask him to please not make me do it, but if he still demanded it of her, she would do it. The other ladies were aghast. That man ended up getting saved and he later told us that the biggest testimony of the truth of the gospel to him was his wife’s behavior, love, and submission to him. 1 Corinthians 7:16 KJV
[16] For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
[16] For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
Wow
You can’t answer a question about the amount of incidents in the Christian community so you focus on whether her leaving is defiance.
Whatever, define it any way that you want. I don’t care.
That is good on her, I would think good of her as well. And you've said you'd tell the hypothetical woman to leave if forced to abort, so yeah we agree on all fronts already. With you, i think we just disagree in calling that refusal and then leaving, defiance or not? Don't remember honestly. Either way, good on the lady that she would stick through with her husband and obey him in all things. I'm not sure if smoking weed is a sin or not, i lean probably, but i know it can deeply go against one's conscience for sure.
To the contrary, it exposes some things and proves other things. Not so many years ago, I'd wager most of the people of this forum would have been tempted to say the exact same thing if someone had brought up the "extreme" of polygyny as an acid test for the validity of the definition of marriage. Is that sweat on your brow? Brother @b_ce just wants to test the validity of his and our understanding of the authority of the husband and the duty of the wife, as do I. It's not easy to hold two contrary positions, to say on one hand that she must submit and obey, even to an ungodly husband, and on the other to say she can rebel, defy his word, and leave the one who owns her, who bought her, or who she was given to, who was placed over her as her ruler, who bears the authority and responsibility, and who transforms her to make her pleasing to him. Of course, it's a lot easier if you can leave out "in all things". It's a lot easier to duck and dodge. But all things are possible, and God's Word is not limited. So, what does it truly say? How can we reconcile that with what we know, or do we need to change what we think we know?
I am certain you are correct in this. However, it's also a deflection. It's a different, but related topic of her duty to advise. Some here don't agree, I know.
Exactly! But, only if your answer to the scenario is: rebel, defy, walk away. (All the same thing, really, aren't they?) Now it gets difficult, because you've opened the door. It would have been much easier if nobody had brought up murder or idols. This is, as I began with, the hingepin of Christian feminism. These "extreme" scenarios are the altar to that god on which they sacrifice the remainder of the command to submit in all things. However, if your answer is more along the lines of, "she is covered, the guilt will be on his head, she may and must do as he has commanded her, it will not be her sin", now that altar has been smashed to pieces and that god has been toppled. BUT...is that answer true? I believe it is. But I am weak to defend it. That's why I want to explore the entire difficult topic here with you guys to see what emerges from the fire.
Perfect. Beautiful and godly answer. Typical reaction from those unaccustomed to the truth. Praise God that the power of her witness brought her husband to salvation! But, even if it hadn't, and even if it had been "worse" than pot, her answer was good, true, and complete. Reminds me of Loretta Lynn.
You are on right path.
All easy moral situations are when we don't have to choose between our values. Lord and husband ask for same thing.
Ptoblem is when Lord and husband ask for contradictionary things. All interesting situations in ethics is when we are forced to choose.
Al least Sarah can claim lieing is OK to protect life. Exodus starts with same lies to Pharaoh, so I doubt Lord would have problem with lies in this situation.
Regarding means of disobedience, never forget that we always choose our actions and agency can never be taken from us.