But there is no point in making heathens part of the equation.It’s hypothetical, it can be extrapolated to any degree
Hopefully we have a higher standard, but we are proving here that most don’t.
But there is no point in making heathens part of the equation.It’s hypothetical, it can be extrapolated to any degree
Heck I worked with a heathen who knocked up a stripper and he was devastated when she aborted the baby. It’s pretty rare even among heathens that the man demands the abortion... maybe not in Hollywood, but in real life.But there is no point in making heathens part of the equation.
Hopefully we have a higher standard, but we are proving here that most don’t.
I believe marriage is an holy institution of God, even if not regarded as such, anyone married is simply following a blueprint laid out by the creator. In other non western countries they tend to do marriage more biblically, actually. Husbands are still accountable for what they do even if they don't believe what i believe. If a husband in India, who isn't Christian, tells his wife to abort, is it any less murder? Everyone will be held accountable, for everything they do, no?Really?
You are going to extrapolate this over all married people in the world?
It doesn’t, that I know of.Yes, @steve and @Asforme&myhouse, where does it say she can leave? I know it says she can be sent away. I can't think of anything to support what you are saying.
Yes! And of men who don't want to accept responsibility. ("She didn't have to do it. She should have known better. She could have left. Obey me, but only if what I'm saying is right, otherwise it's your fault. The woman You put here with me....")But it remains the central argument of women who don’t want to be led.
Think about that for a few.
@steve @Asforme&myhouse I don't argue for woman's emancipation, i know in going against some of you it may seem like that. For the woman, it is a slippery slope, to gain advantage. For me, the argument stops there, at sin. If she is told to abort the child, in your eyes she is to say no just like i'm saying, and separate.Yes! And of men who don't want to accept responsibility. ("She didn't have to do it. She should have known better. She could have left. Obey me, but only if what I'm saying is right, otherwise it's your fault. The woman You put here with me....")
Good point.The woman You put here with me....
Leaving is a way to seek a better solution, it’s not a similar defiance as staying there and refusing to obey.It's just that I see refusal and separation as defiance as well.
Husband: "Kill the baby"Leaving is a way to seek a better solution, it’s not a similar defiance as staying there and refusing to obey.
The spirit of the act isn’t the same.
Do you think that a husband who is requiring an abortion is a safe person to defy and still live with?Husband: "Kill the baby"
Wife: "I refuse to sin against God, I'll leave if i must"
How is that not an act of defiance?
This happens often. You just know little about the subject, and assume too much.Do you think that a husband who is requiring an abortion is a safe person to defy and still live with?
What I've written isn't any extreme scenario, not at all. You may just not be well versed in the pro-life movement is all. Neither am I. My wife always relays information to me about different testimonies, and husbands forcing abortion, isn't as rare as you'd think. It isn't fair to turn every argument into an statistical anomaly instead of addressing it as an actual question.The whole extreme scenario thing to prove a point really doesn’t prove anything. The scenario of a christian man demanding his wife kill, or lie, or steal lacks realism that would be there in a real life scenario. There are a number of steps in a real life scenario that have been totally skipped that makes it even more of a stretch. For instance, has the wife already fallen on her knees before her evil christian husband and begged him not to force her to rape and pillage the neighbors? Has she tried to reason with him? If a woman is truly married to Jack the Ripper, she should leave for her own safety, at least until God has time deal with him. But I think in a real life scenario this is obvious to any reasonable person. The problem is that this extreme scenario is then often shoehorned into an argument that a wife can decide her husband is disappointing and therefore ungodly and she need not follow him unless he is doing what she thinks is godly christlike behavior. Like Steve just said, if a man is demanding the death of his child, is he safe to live with? If he’s not safe to live with, then leave. If he is safe and reasonable then reason with him and follow his lead.
My wife just made an interesting comment to me about obeying and following. She had to ask herself how much she trusted God in submitting in all things. It was a question of her own faith, is her God big enough to rescue her out of any situation... like Sarah in Abimelech’s house or Isaac under Abraham’s knife. Or even the situation with Abigail and Nabal. Nabal was a foolish, evil man who put his entire household in danger of eminent death and yet Abigail protected his life with her wisdom... then God took care of the situation. God is big enough to save.
Do you have any stats at all concerning Christian men?What I've written isn't any extreme scenario, not at all. You may just not be well versed in the pro-life movement is all. Neither am I. My wife always relays information to me about different testimonies, and husbands forcing abortion, isn't as rare as you'd think.
You evade the question and change the subject a lot. And the questions your asking now I've already answered in previous posts. I feel that I agree with you enough that I no longer feel the need to debate you, to be honest. You'll just keep moving the goalpost instead of scoring. Why should I waste time, when I've past proven my point. No offense to you.Do you have any stats at all concerning Christian men?
Or is this just another way to smear patriarchy by making broad, unsupported statements that include the heathen?
WowYou evade the question and change the subject a lot. And the questions your asking now I've already answered in previous posts. I feel that I agree with you enough that I no longer feel the need to debate you, to be honest. You'll just keep moving the goalpost instead of scoring. Why should I waste time, when I've past proven my point. No offense to you.
Have a good day Steve, don't stress off of me anymore. Seriously. You've already been a help to me in the short time I've been on this forum. God bless the rest of your day. I hope we find more common ground in the future.
That is good on her, I would think good of her as well. And you've said you'd tell the hypothetical woman to leave if forced to abort, so yeah we agree on all fronts already. With you, i think we just disagree in calling that refusal and then leaving, defiance or not? Don't remember honestly. Either way, good on the lady that she would stick through with her husband and obey him in all things. I'm not sure if smoking weed is a sin or not, i lean probably, but i know it can deeply go against one's conscience for sure.But these scenarios ARE extreme, and obvious. These violate direct and unambiguous commands of God. Let me give you a real scenario, one that my family and I witnessed when I was growing up. A sweet christlike woman who attended our church was married to an unbeliever and I mean an extreme unbeliever. During a ladies Bible study they were talking about submission and the other ladies were talking about where they draw the line. This said she was called to submit in all things. The other ladies were incredulous and asked, but what if he forced you to smoke pot?! Her answer was, I would ask him to please not make me do it, but if he still demanded it of her, she would do it. The other ladies were aghast. That man ended up getting saved and he later told us that the biggest testimony of the truth of the gospel to him was his wife’s behavior, love, and submission to him. 1 Corinthians 7:16 KJV
[16] For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
To the contrary, it exposes some things and proves other things. Not so many years ago, I'd wager most of the people of this forum would have been tempted to say the exact same thing if someone had brought up the "extreme" of polygyny as an acid test for the validity of the definition of marriage. Is that sweat on your brow? Brother @b_ce just wants to test the validity of his and our understanding of the authority of the husband and the duty of the wife, as do I. It's not easy to hold two contrary positions, to say on one hand that she must submit and obey, even to an ungodly husband, and on the other to say she can rebel, defy his word, and leave the one who owns her, who bought her, or who she was given to, who was placed over her as her ruler, who bears the authority and responsibility, and who transforms her to make her pleasing to him. Of course, it's a lot easier if you can leave out "in all things". It's a lot easier to duck and dodge. But all things are possible, and God's Word is not limited. So, what does it truly say? How can we reconcile that with what we know, or do we need to change what we think we know?The whole extreme scenario thing to prove a point really doesn’t prove anything. The scenario of a christian man demanding his wife kill, or lie, or steal lacks realism that would be there in a real life scenario.
I am certain you are correct in this. However, it's also a deflection. It's a different, but related topic of her duty to advise. Some here don't agree, I know.There are a number of steps in a real life scenario that have been totally skipped that makes it even more of a stretch. For instance, has the wife already fallen on her knees before her evil christian husband and begged him not to force her to rape and pillage the neighbors? Has she tried to reason with him?
Exactly! But, only if your answer to the scenario is: rebel, defy, walk away. (All the same thing, really, aren't they?) Now it gets difficult, because you've opened the door. It would have been much easier if nobody had brought up murder or idols. This is, as I began with, the hingepin of Christian feminism. These "extreme" scenarios are the altar to that god on which they sacrifice the remainder of the command to submit in all things. However, if your answer is more along the lines of, "she is covered, the guilt will be on his head, she may and must do as he has commanded her, it will not be her sin", now that altar has been smashed to pieces and that god has been toppled. BUT...is that answer true? I believe it is. But I am weak to defend it. That's why I want to explore the entire difficult topic here with you guys to see what emerges from the fire.The problem is that this extreme scenario is then often shoehorned into an argument that a wife can decide her husband is disappointing and therefore ungodly and she need not follow him unless he is doing what she thinks is godly christlike behavior.
Perfect. Beautiful and godly answer. Typical reaction from those unaccustomed to the truth. Praise God that the power of her witness brought her husband to salvation! But, even if it hadn't, and even if it had been "worse" than pot, her answer was good, true, and complete. Reminds me of Loretta Lynn.Her answer was, I would ask him to please not make me do it, but if he still demanded it of her, she would do it. The other ladies were aghast.
You are on right path.Yes. That’s what I thought. The husband’s authority is limited. But some make it seem like it’s total and complete, even if he is commanding her to commit egregious sin. Commanding her to lie in order to save someone is one thing, but commanding her to commit adultery or murder is another, don’t you think? Does she have any means to disobey in the case of a command to commit a really egregious sin?