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Biblical Patriarchy vs. Predators

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I disagree, I think there's something wrong with a 35+ year old man wanting to marry a 15 year old girl. Sure he can provide for her but that's also what her parents are for...

I agree that many people are not ready for marriage at any age, however a 15 year old, no matter their maturity will always be more vulnerable due to their age.

This conversation always has me questioning some of the people on this site. I'll be taking a step back before I get myself into trouble per usual.
 
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Obviously the authority of the parent needs to be respected. I for one have every intent of presenting the option of taking a daughter as a taking on the authority and responsibility of the father onto myself. The western society in general has eliminated paternal authority, but still saddled him with ultimate responsibility. They can punish the father with impugnity, and thus any man who takes on that role for a woman is equally at risk of recieving punishment for daring to have authority.

It is true, no 15 year old is worth marrying. Not for a 19 year old, not for a 60 year old. But the exact same argument can be made for any baby. There is no particular benefit to the parents to have children. The exact same reason men today are saying it's not worth it to marry ANY woman, regardless of her age, is equally used to intentionally murder babies. They aren't worth the cost. There must be something aside, that makes it worthwhile. There's another thread going "why did you marry your wife." Those reasons from the men are what goes on the positive side of the scales, while the risks of financial ruin, emotional destruction, and societal attack go on the cons. When the percieved benefits outweigh the cons, the guy will go for it. Unfortunately, the pros for the pimpdaddies in high-school is that they get gobs of sex with women at their biological prime, get extreme social boons as chads and alphas, with few to no repercussions. All they have to do is NOT get married. And the gals get their biological impulses satisfied with the tippy-top male, thus satisfying their reproductive strategy from a purely biological standpoint, and this behavior is encouraged socially as "girl-power!"

What's the moral and upright guy to do? Clean up the sloppy leftovers? Is that the best a righteous man can expect? Apologies to the squeamish amongst the evangelicals, but that is a losing strategy... Surprise! The men are leaving.
 
StudentofHim said:
What do you find wrong with a 15yo marrying?
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LovesDogs said:
Have you ever had a conversation with a 15 year old?
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Good points. But remember that NOW - if she's still in the Publik Cesspool Indoctranashun Sinturs - she'll probably be sterilized and trannified into a 'they' before getting a worthless certificate of Negative Edukashun.
 
LovesDogs said:
This conversation always has me questioning some of the people on this site. I'll be taking a step back before I get myself into trouble per usual.
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To be very clear, this ministry does not in any way support underage marriage. Underage marriage being that which would be illegal.
LovesDogs said:
Nope, I can't pretend that the solution to being sluts in high school is having them marry older men at age 15. Both are wrong.
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However, above that lower bound, it is very clear that the scriptural solution to lust is marriage (1 Cor 7:9,36). Even if we don't emotionally like this because it isn't the culture we were raised in, it is still what the Bible says, so it is true. It's not something we are making up, it just is.

Nobody is ever completely "ready" for marriage - you could keep studying it all your life and trying to prepare yourself, but until you actually marry you still have a lot to learn. You get ready for marriage during the first two years after the wedding. And that is true whatever age you are.

Incidentally, when growing up one of my friends had parents who were 19 years apart. And we are now close to a family with a 30+ year age gap between the parents. Both were / are strong marriages and not creepy in any way. When you actually know people in this situation your culturally-driven preconceptions quickly disappear.
 
LovesDogs said:
I agree that many people are not ready for marriage at any age, however a 15 year old, no matter their maturity will always be more vulnerable due to their age.
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Maybe if her parents just find a Bible-believing guy who'll promise NOT to let the People's Republik of Kalifornia cut off her breasts and inject her with testosterone...

Yeah - color me REAL cynical. I don't think 9 y-o's are any less vulnerable to what is being done to 'em.
 
Mark C said:
Good points. But remember that NOW - if she's still in the Publik Cesspool Indoctranashun Sinturs - she'll probably be sterilized and trannified into a 'they' before getting a worthless certificate of Negative Edukashun.
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They frequently give girls in high school depaprevera (sp) shots without parental knowledge. That shot causes serious depression. Most birth control also has the potential to negatively impact future fertility.

So besides the dating (whoring) and all the indoctrination....they might not be able to have a family later.

Crazy that her classmates can use her with no provision or commitment, yet a man in a secure position that would take her as a wife is bad??
Clown world where things are backward.
 
LovesDogs said:
I disagree, I think there's something wrong with a 35+ year old man wanting to marry a 15 year old girl. Sure he can provide for her but that's also what her parents are for...

I agree that many people are not ready for marriage at any age, however a 15 year old, no matter their maturity will always be more vulnerable due to their age.

This conversation always has me questioning some of the people on this site. I'll be taking a step back before I get myself into trouble per usual.
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I am not arguing with you here, okay? But I am going to argue with the views you are espousing. Okay? I like you and this is not personal. ;)

You say it's wrong for a 35+ year old man to marry a 15yo girl. But the liberals are right now making a push to end the age of consent so non-marital relationships between adults and teens can take place. So why not allow them to get married?

As it stands 15yo girls can freely engage in sex with their same-age peers, have multiple children who will be wards of the state, and society is effectively fine with this. If the individual girl is so inclined to want to be a wife and mother instead of finishing high school, spending four years in college, working at some job, and having strings of casual relationships then is her choice really that bad?

Up until about eighty years ago it was perfectly legal and even normal in most places for older men to marry 13-17 year old girls. Checking my own family tree I see most of the women were married at 15 to 17. What happened that made this socially repugnant? Lesbian feminists and socialists are quite frankly the source of every reason why most young women don't marry young anymore.

You are right that a 15yo girl is vulnerable due to her age but that's more of a social and legal construct than a statement of capability. I married at 18 and I can assure you that I was much less mature than even my own 13yo daughters are right now. But for me it was legal even though that legality had no basis in reality whatsoever. If we go back to assigning adult rights and responsibilities to kids at 13 (which was normal for at least 4,000 years) we'd see kids grow up much faster. Quite seriously, the teenager phenomenon is really a creation of the post World War Two era. What we are doing right now with teenagers is an historical aberration and deviation. It is not normal.

Prior to 80 years ago when kids turned 13 they were considered adults.

This same criticism of society applies to poly.

Society says a man can have eight girlfriends at a time, have babies with each of them, and that's okay. In some circles it's celebrated.

But if he marries them then call the National Guard! :eek:

Now I utterly oppose forcing a 15-17yo girl into a marriage. But if she freely chooses this then why not? And frankly an older man is going to appeal to her because he 1) has a job 2) can provide for her and her kids and 3) he's more mature than 15-25yo boys.

I guess the heart of it here is that the socialist lesbian feminists bitch endlessly about "my body, my choice" but when it comes to young women who want to choose a traditional lifestyle these demonic man-hating deviants are all about the control.
 
It amuses me that we are getting wrapped around the axel over the prospect of a young lady getting married, while the schools that they are in are fighting for them to be able to “change genders”. Something that has been proven to ruin lives. And is totally irreversible.
 
I still think the solution to all of this would be to have more fathers in the household, particularly fathers who would knock the f*ck out of some grown man for trying to stick his d*ck in his 15 year old daughter. Not marrying off 15 year old girls.
 
Why not both? What's wrong with fathers protecting their daughters by finding husbands for them? And if it is only about the age 15, then we could certainly try to discuss what the Biblical age of "minor" is for women. I'm only aware of the reference of a woman's "flowering of her youth," which is not a very direct euphemism for our western english minds. So I'd be glad to hear other suggestions on that point.

Also, technically the punishment for seducing a maiden is 50 sheckels of silver, not a beating... I mirror the sentiment though. I'm liable to beat 50 sheckels out of a guy for messing with any daughter of mine.
 
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DawoodSaar said:
Why not both? What's wrong with fathers protecting their daughters by finding husbands for them?

We've got like 7 folk here asking for an explanation why you think the age difference is the problem? If a 70 year old guy picks up a 30 year old woman nobody bats an eye.
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Because you can't do both, no 15 year old is ready for marriage. No one should be able to decide that a 15 year old is ready for marriage, not the 15 year old, not the father, not the potential husband, no one. Just leave the child alone. I'm sorry but this is so far into left field for me.
 
Sexual maturity is sign of readyiness for marriage. And there are physical markers on body if you know where to find them.

Regretfully, we can't use physical markers, so we use age as limit. As usage of age totally burns some people brains.

Reason why physical markers can't be used is because person can fully mature in several years. So any legal process started even after 2 years will be problematic.
 
@LovesDogs, I can see you have strong emotions about this issue, but you need to stop talking in absolutes. You cannot say objectively that "no 15 year old is ready for marriage" unless you have met every 15 year old in the world and have some accurate way of assessing their marriageability. Obviously you don't actually mean "no 15 year old is ready for marriage".

What you mean is that, in your opinion, girls should not marry that young.

And that is a perfectly reasonable opinion and excellent advice in the vast majority of circumstances. For starters, it's illegal for the vast majority of Western 15 year olds to marry, as most jurisdictions have an age of consent of 16.

Just don't presume to know what is best for everybody everywhere in the world. Scripture places the father in charge of this decision, for good reason - their father actually knows them and their circumstances, and is in a position to work out what is right for them. Which in some cases will be that they're not ready until they're 25.
 
DawoodSaar said:
And if it is only about the age 15, then we could certainly try to discuss what the Biblical age of "minor" is for women. I'm only aware of the reference of a woman's "flowering of her youth," which is not a very direct euphemism for our western english minds.
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That's all there is - that and the fact the father is given authority over the decision, not just the girl herself, which adds a massive layer of protection that must not be ignored.

But the Bible doesn't say what the speed limit should be either. Only secular law defines that. That doesn't mean you should drive at 100 miles an hour just because the Bible doesn't mention this.

Like speeding, underage marriage is about secular law, not Biblical law. And like speeding, the limits have been set by men using human reasoning, and as a result vary a lot from place to place and depending on the circumstances, and are all somewhat arbitrary. Because they are all set by well-meaning politicians and bureaucrats trying to address real problems they perceive in society and find a way to do this using the blunt instrument of secular law.

It's entirely reasonable to engage in theoretical discourse and even political action on what the speed limit should be in a particular town, or what the marriage age limit should be - or even if speed and marriage limits should exist at all. These are secular political questions, that have been debated in the past to get the current laws and will be debated again.

But while such laws exist, given the cultural and legal context we live in and particularly the crimes that some polygamous cults have committed, we're not going to host discussion on whether we should break them. These laws are to be obeyed.
 
FollowingHim said:
Obviously you don't actually mean "no 15 year old is ready for marriage".
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Yes, I do absolutely mean that and I mean much worse as well. However sharing those feelings will most likely land me on the ban list. So I'll bow out.

Also I have read and re-read everyone's opinions on the topic, more than once (it's been discussed before as well). Still my feelings have never changed on the subject, I don't presume they ever will.
 
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