Church/Worship Ideas

[NBTX11]

What I am struggling to understand is: Why would you be scared that someone you don't even know yet might find out you're a polygamist?

Honestly @NBTX11 if you are too scared to let anyone know you are a polygamist, you should not be a polygamist. But that ship has sailed. You cannot keep this hidden like it's a dirty little secret, it isn't. You knew it would become public knowledge before you even took a second wife (because only a fool would think they could keep something that big a secret, and I am assuming you are not a fool, so you knew this). This is your life now. Get out there and live it.

I’m not scared. I’ve told numerous people. This is simply about ways to be accepted into church without being asked to leave.

I openly go out to dinner with both wives and hold both of their hands at the same time in public all the time. I do not care. And this is in the town my church is in.

Let me repeat. I’m not scared. I’ve told everyone of significance to me and openly take both out often. This is simply about attending without having to lie or be asked to leave.

 

[frederick]

I’m not scared. I’ve told numerous people. This is simply about ways to be accepted into church without being asked to leave.

I openly go out to dinner with both wives and hold both of their hands at the same time in public all the time. I do not care. And this is in the town my church is in.

Let me repeat. I’m not scared. I’ve told everyone of significance to me and openly take both out often. This is simply about attending without having to lie or be asked to leave.

Because of the situation I live in, I attend two different churches assemblies: one with each wife. Over the years I've been asked to leave two and I know the leaders of one I currently attend are going to ask me to leave when I'm next there. The battle I have is that several people who know of my situation have made it their mission in life to see me chased out of church assemblies, so when they discover I'm involved with an assembly they talk to the leadership and raise a stir.

I agree with what @FollowingHim has said above; don't create unnecessary difficulties for yourself but see it as an educational opportunity when someone brings up polygyny. At the end of the day, it's really no different from what our Lord experienced when it got to the point where He avoided places and people because of the opposition He faced (see e.g. John 7:1; 10:39, 40). When the religious people want to stone you to death because they hate you so much for standing for the truth, you know you're in Good company! Shalom

 

[Bartato]

Have you tried?

Pick the biggest church in your area, turn up and sit in the back row, and I doubt anybody will batt an eyelid. When asked who you are, just reply with your first names, not anything that is asking for trouble. In other words, don't say "I'm Bob, these are my wives Sue and Ann, and my children Dick and Jane". Just say "I'm Bob, this is Sue, Ann, Dick and Jane". Just act normal. Almost certainly everyone will just assume that one of those women is your wife and the other is your sister or daughter or friend or something, and just jump straight to talking about something else. Pretty quickly afterwards you'll all go in different directions anyway and be talking in different groups of people, so won't look like a family at all.

When introducing himself and his wives, he could introduce himself as "Jacob" along with his wives "Leah, and Rachel". Remember that the LORD is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

 

[Mark C]

'Churches' that won't acknowledge something as fundamental and undeniable as His Essential Basic Plan for Marriage (i.e., patriarchy and all that goes with it) - IMHO - aren't worth darkening the door.

(As face diapers and Zyklon-B mandates demonstrated so dramatically, and fatally.)

If you have to, create your own fellowship; that's why we did, years ago.

 

[Bartato]

'Churches' that won't acknowledge something as fundamental and undeniable as His Essential Basic Plan for Marriage (i.e., patriarchy and all that goes with it) - IMHO - aren't worth darkening the door.

(As face diapers and Zyklon-B mandates demonstrated so dramatically, and fatally.)

If you have to, create your own fellowship; that's why we did, years ago.

We know you don't believe "regular churches" are worth attending for a wide variety of reasons.

That said, your conclusion about NBTX11 starting his own fellowship is probably right.

 

[Mark C]

We know you don't believe "regular churches" are worth attending for a wide variety of reasons.

That's why I didn't list 'em.

After all, they're all in His Book anyway...

 

[Mark C]

...That said, your conclusion about NBTX11 starting his own fellowship is probably right.

And it occurs to me (albeit not for the first time )
...that if all of those who can read His Word as Written (even if it only starts with marriage) did likewise, we could establish an awesome on-line Fellowship. (But it would be a target, of course.)

I know that, over the years, there have been a number of "home fellowships" that have joined our Sabbath live 'rooms' for local gatherings.

 

[julieb]

I just feel like it’s inevitable that people will ask questions about who the two women are, even if I keep quiet, sit in the back, and say nothing. People are naturally curious about new people. How would you answer the question, “is this your wife?” I don’t want to advertise it, but I don’t want to lie either, if asked direct questions. People will want to get to know us. They see welcoming and getting to know new people as an outreach ministry.

This is why Samuel's first suggestion of finding the "biggest church" has to be understood as a big enough church that most people will not pay much attention to you. You need one that has multiple morning services for sure. One of the down sides is that you can't really be involved in the church, and for folks who really like to serve in the church that can be a struggle each time you attend a service. But if the music and preaching minister to you on some level then it might be worth your time.

 

[NBTX11]

This is why Samuel's first suggestion of finding the "biggest church" has to be understood as a big enough church that most people will not pay much attention to you. You need one that has multiple morning services for sure. One of the down sides is that you can't really be involved in the church, and for folks who really like to serve in the church that can be a struggle each time you attend a service. But if the music and preaching minister to you on some level then it might be worth your time.

We’re thinking of John Hagee’s Cornerstone church to attend. Seems to fit as it’s a large church. That’s one of the options we’re considering.

 

[Bartato]

If you find a church that is sufficiently Pentacostal, you could tell them that "The Holy Spirit led you to have two wives".

That probably wouldn't fly.

 

[Bartato]

NBTX11
You could also go around town looking for a church with a rainbow flag and signs that say "love is love", and see how they respond.

 

[NBTX11]

If you find a church that is sufficiently Pentacostal, you could tell them that "The Holy Spirit led you to have two wives".

That probably wouldn't fly.

There’s one right nearby. I wonder if they would accept us.

 

[Bartato]

There’s one right nearby. I wonder if they would accept us.

Probably not, and I doubt you would like it there anyway.

 

[FollowingHim]

However, it would be a seriously interesting experiment. That would be the place to walk openly in with two wives and see what their reaction was. Ideally get someone to film it when you do, we'd all love to watch!

 

[FollowingHim]

When introducing himself and his wives, he could introduce himself as "Jacob" along with his wives "Leah, and Rachel". Remember that the LORD is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

No, that goes exactly against my point - I said not to raise the issue of polygamy, ie just use their real names (I invented names because I don't know their real names). If you go out of your way to refer to polygamy, however obliquely, that's defeating the entire purpose.

If you have to, create your own fellowship; that's why we did, years ago.

Too many people do this. I was "home churched" through my teenage years after my father left all the local congregations for one reason or another (not going into that). It had benefits for sure, along with many drawbacks, and my walk with God really flourished once I started attending a local youth group and getting back into fellowship with other believers. It's too easy to go off down a theological tangent when you don't have anyone who disagrees with you to pull you up on things.

And retreating to the hills is a defeatist strategy - it's why all the mainstream churches are embracing LGBTQ nonsense, because whenever things get controversial the conservatives leave to make a "correct" church and hand the existing organisation including the prominent cathedrals in the middle of the cities over to the liberals. Each round of progressivism results in more conservatives leaving, more little denominations and independent churches forming, the Body being shattered, and the Gospel being displaced by Satan's message now preached from the most prominent pulpits that once preached the word of God.

There is certainly a place for church planting. But we are far, far too quick to jump to it. It should be seen as an absolute last resort, not a first option.

 

[Mark C]

Too many people do this. [i.e., a 'home fellowship'] I was "home churched" through my teenage years after my father left all the local congregations for one reason or another (not going into that). It had benefits for sure, along with many drawbacks, and my walk with God really flourished once I started attending a local youth group and getting back into fellowship with other believers. It's too easy to go off down a theological tangent when you don't have anyone who disagrees with you to pull you up on things.

Which is what I thought BF was about...but some of that is (not going into that ) not allowed...

And retreating to the hills is a defeatist strategy - it's why all the mainstream churches are embracing LGBTQ nonsense, because whenever things get controversial the conservatives leave to make a "correct" church and hand the existing organisation including the prominent cathedrals in the middle of the cities over to the liberals.

But, and on this I have been adamant:

THAT is why He says, "come out of her, My people." Don't participate in the sins, and don't partake of the plagues.

ALL of which, I also contend, are now not only undeniable, but Legion.

...Each round of progressivism results in more conservatives leaving, more little denominations and independent churches forming, the Body being shattered, and the Gospel being displaced by Satan's message now preached from the most prominent pulpits that once preached the word of God.

And there we really disagree. Did they, REALLY? Not in my lifetime, that I can honestly recall. Not even close, actually.

I have come to believe that the problem started at LEAST when it became (at swordpoint, or by fire) "one true, Universal, Catholic" and Irresistible, or Else, 'Church'.

And it coincided with "there can be only one..."

 

[Bartato]

Which is what I thought BF was about...but some of that is (not going into that ) not allowed...


But, and on this I have been adamant:

THAT is why He says, "come out of her, My people." Don't participate in the sins, and don't partake of the plagues.

ALL of which, I also contend, are now not only undeniable, but Legion.




And there we really disagree. Did they, REALLY? Not in my lifetime, that I can honestly recall. Not even close, actually.

I have come to believe that the problem started at LEAST when it became (at swordpoint, or by fire) "one true, Universal, Catholic" and Irresistible, or Else, 'Church'.

And it coincided with "there can be only one..."

People in our circles sure love to quote the Revelation passage about coming out of Babylon.

I agree that it is important for believers to actually do so.

We also need to keep the passage from 1st John 2:19 in mind.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." (NKJV)

Some extremely religious and zealous people leave churches because they ultimately aren't of Christ, and aren't part of the Bride.

I'm not accusing us of being those people, but I think there is still a warning for us there.

 

[Mark C]

Some extremely religious and zealous people leave churches because they ultimately aren't of Christ, and aren't part of the Bride.

And here, at first, I thought you meant those 'churches'

But I contend that 'the Bride' is a lie; not 'singular' - and thus a part of the problem:
"there can be only ONE" - and "if you ain't a part of THIS 'church' you ain't part of The Bride!"

 

[Bartato]

No, that goes exactly against my point - I said not to raise the issue of polygamy, ie just use their real names (I invented names because I don't know their real names). If you go out of your way to refer to polygamy, however obliquely, that's defeating the entire purpose.

Too many people do this. I was "home churched" through my teenage years after my father left all the local congregations for one reason or another (not going into that). It had benefits for sure, along with many drawbacks, and my walk with God really flourished once I started attending a local youth group and getting back into fellowship with other believers. It's too easy to go off down a theological tangent when you don't have anyone who disagrees with you to pull you up on things.

And retreating to the hills is a defeatist strategy - it's why all the mainstream churches are embracing LGBTQ nonsense, because whenever things get controversial the conservatives leave to make a "correct" church and hand the existing organisation including the prominent cathedrals in the middle of the cities over to the liberals. Each round of progressivism results in more conservatives leaving, more little denominations and independent churches forming, the Body being shattered, and the Gospel being displaced by Satan's message now preached from the most prominent pulpits that once preached the word of God.

There is certainly a place for church planting. But we are far, far too quick to jump to it. It should be seen as an absolute last resort, not a first option.

My point with the Jacob, Leah, Rachel thing wasn't about laying low. It was a more confrontational response.

If the church kicks NBTX11 and his wives out, they should realize that they would have also kicked out the patriarchs, the fathers of the Faith, men who God Himself has already explicitly accepted.

Regarding the home church thing, I agree that there are a lot of problems with it. You lose a lot.

Unfortunately, NBTX11 has likely put himself in the position where he might not have many other options.

A lot of us around here studied all this "Biblical marriage" stuff on our own, and then came to firm conclusions about everything. We realize polygamy is lawful, and then some of us run out and take additional wives.

That is a lawful thing to do, but it is also messy from a relational standpoint.

Maybe before taking a second wife, NBTX11 should have wrestled theologically with the brothers (and pastors) of the church he has been in for 20 years (regarding patriarchy and polygamy). Maybe some hearts could have been changed.

Maybe someday we will actually win a church congregation over to the truth on this issue. So far, we aren't doing very well.

 

[FollowingHim]

Regarding the state of the mainline churches, this man has been looking at it all from the opposite angle to what most of us have done, and is very worth listening to as an entirely different perspective.