Seems relevant to poly as well...
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0: When does marriage begin? - Structured discussion
- Thread starter FollowingHim
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Seems relevant to poly as well...
I thought we were talking about marriage.
When would you surmise that this marriage happened?
Sorry @ZecAustin Sinai is clearly the covenant. Jeremiah 31:31-34... comparing old and new, husband to them....
Indeed, Israel was His before then, like a betrothed little girl until her coming of age. But, the covenant happened at Sinai and it was both written and spoken... 'all that You say, we will do...'
It is fun to watch you battle with this, though....
I was thinking that the promises to Abraham were the covenant. Notice that God called Abraham out from his people to be a new people (correlating to leave and cleave).
Abraham accepted the promises by performance in faith (I'm mixing legal and faith language, hope that's not confusing).
Abraham's faith,which was shown by his obedience, was credited to him as righteousness, a prerequisite for being in Gods family.
The promises to Abraham also come with a new physical dwelling, abundant children and a formalized relationship of submission and following his head which is God.
Abraham accepted the promises by performance in faith (I'm mixing legal and faith language, hope that's not confusing).
Abraham's faith,which was shown by his obedience, was credited to him as righteousness, a prerequisite for being in Gods family.
The promises to Abraham also come with a new physical dwelling, abundant children and a formalized relationship of submission and following his head which is God.
If you depend on Ez 16:8 then you'd have to say that marriage formation requires a covenant AND sex. But notice what that passage doesn't include: dowry. Which other passages on marriage do include. So we can't take this verse as all encompassing or definitive.
Chosen people != covenant. Was not the law a covenant? That's why we call it the Old Law. I didn't realize that was controversial.
Paulsen is right, there was a covenant made between God and Abraham. But that doesn't mean there wouldn't be subsequent ones.
Zackly!
I would be careful of stretching this metaphor too far. We know that God described Himself as married to Israel and we know that God made a covenant with Israel. It doesn't necessarily follow.that God married Israel by a covenant. Job made a covenant with his eyes. I don't think you would say Job was married to his eyes.
So what was all that stuff He said to Abraham and Jacob? Quite a bit of that sounded very covenanty and applied to future generations. I would be loathe to draw a hard line at Sinai.Sorry @ZecAustin Sinai is clearly the covenant. Jeremiah 31:31-34... comparing old and new, husband to them....
Indeed, Israel was His before then, like a betrothed little girl until her coming of age. But, the covenant happened at Sinai and it was both written and spoken... 'all that You say, we will do...'
It is fun to watch you battle with this, though....
I don't rely on the Ezekiel passage. I just pointed out that it supports my belief.
You raise a good point when you said that the passage doesn't include a dowry so that it must not be a complete teaching on marriage. This is an excellent standard for you to apply to this topic. You should go through all of the verses about marriage and catalog what features in everyone. Then we could see what elements are universal in Biblical marriages and so what would then constitute one.
I can give you the answer if you like but you seem like the sort who has to find things for himself. So look it up, what is the one common element in every depiction of marriage in the Bible? There aren't that many passages so it won't take you long.
POoOW!! Spot on!
POoOWWWWWW! Then compare that to Genesis 2:24’s cleave in the Hebrew to expound on.
And on what basis can we say that a one, always mentioned element, is therefore the ONLY one that constitutes marriage?
@all
When you say 'marriage is a covenant', what do you mean? How do you define those words? Are you saying it is formed with the forming of the covenant? If so, how is that covenant formed and what are the specifics of it?
I ask because I realized today that 'marriage is a covenant', though a nice statement I often hear brandied about, is rarely defined and for those from a Reformed background may carry a lot of unspecified theological implications.
When you say 'marriage is a covenant', what do you mean? How do you define those words? Are you saying it is formed with the forming of the covenant? If so, how is that covenant formed and what are the specifics of it?
I ask because I realized today that 'marriage is a covenant', though a nice statement I often hear brandied about, is rarely defined and for those from a Reformed background may carry a lot of unspecified theological implications.
I would say whenever the agreement is made you are entering into the covenant. Most modern weddings include vows. But even if there is no “wedding” some sort of agreement has to be involved beyond just “ hey I’m horny let’s have sex “ and then never speaking to one another again. Even if it’s simply implied that you are considering each other a “permanent life partner” without any formal agreement. Imo that’s the start of a marriage (although I think thats a lowsy way to do it. To each his own...) probably best to at a minimum have a specific conversation about it. So I guess I’m saying that the “agreement” starts it... and is the covenant.
Ya. I usually view covenant as a synonym for agreement or contract. But I get the impression that to some it has more implications than that practical level of meaning.
Just thinking out loud here (or thinking in writing)
I am also thinking that sex might be part of it. It is a command of God for man and wife. We know that Mary was called Joseph’s espoused wife before sex so I’m not sure how this fits.
Thayer's Definition of espoused is
- to woo her and ask her in marriage
- to be promised in marriage, be betrothed
I’m not sure the lack of dowry matters. I never viewed dowry as a requirement only an option if the father decided on it. I never paid for my wife but I have no doubt that she is my wife. Her father literally gave her to me on our wedding day. I also made a covenant with her and had sex with her on that same day...
And on what basis can you say that something that's a never mentioned element is? Because a covenant is a never mentioned element. At least not in the formation of a one flesh relationship. Sex always is though. It's not quite that simple but it almost is. Part of the problem is that we've invented this term marriage that doesn't exist in the Bible. Neither do the terms husband or wife. The Bible only refers to men and the women they've mastered. Yes, you can make a covenant with a woman you've mastered if you like. It's not necessary though.
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Marriage is a process.
Luke 8:5 "A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up. 6Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.”
It also has to have purpose.
Genesis 2:18-25 18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” 19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.” 24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
Someone can have sex with someone and it not create purpose, but there is also the risk that it can. A 'marriage' that does not bring light to God (eventually) is not a marriage by design.
How many people go before an alter and say they accept Christ but turn away. Salvation is a gift, sanctification and justification are a process. The deeper one goes the stronger the relationship becomes.
Luke 8:5 "A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up. 6Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.”
It also has to have purpose.
Genesis 2:18-25 18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” 19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.” 24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.
Someone can have sex with someone and it not create purpose, but there is also the risk that it can. A 'marriage' that does not bring light to God (eventually) is not a marriage by design.
How many people go before an alter and say they accept Christ but turn away. Salvation is a gift, sanctification and justification are a process. The deeper one goes the stronger the relationship becomes.
Ya not much I would disagree with there; I've made many of the same points before. As was sort of implied by my original summation which left this out of the core formulation: there is a case to be made for covenant, but it is not open and shut.
As I sit here pondering I wonder, the Eph 5 example of marriage as a picture of the Christ-man relationship is a strong argument for marriage as a covenant. Although, marriage as mere contract doesn't really do justice to the mystery of a man and woman.