@The Revolting Man knows full well what covenant @Asforme&myhouse is talking about. He has read the book of Hebrews. He just doesn't get it for some reason.
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1 corinthians 9:19-23
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That’s all great! I’m very excited about this. Like I said, I just need to see the New covenant in scripture and we can move on.
Interesting, except the “New Covenant” in Hebrews 8 is specifically for the Jews and it doesn’t start until after Christ’s return.
So what’s this New Covemant you’re talking about?
Are you sure you get it? Hebrews 8 is specifically referencing Jeremiah, a covenant that won’t be in place until the Jews are perfected morally at some future date.@The Revolting Man knows full well what covenant @Asforme&myhouse is talking about. He has read the book of Hebrews. He just doesn't get it for some reason.
So what “New Covenant” is with gentiles now? As a gentile now I’m very interested to know about it. I just don’t.
Look “New Covenant” is a phrase we all heard and ingested but none of us know what it is or where it’s laid out in scripture. It didn’t have a Sinai moment, it isn’t laid or described. As covenants go it’s not a very clear one.
I’d love it if you could change that though. So where is the New Covenant in scripture? Hebrews 8 is a future covenant.
The writer of Hebrews makes reference to the prophesied covenant, a covenant that will not be like the one made at Mount Sinai. Then the writer of Hebrews goes into detail about a high priest from the tribe of Judah who is the mediator of this better covenant and then goes on to say that we HAVE such a high priest, PRESENT TENSE. Why is that? The covenant made at Mount Sinai makes no mention of a God king high priest from the tribe of Judah who sacrifices himself. That’s not part of that covenant. So if we are under the Sinai covenant what is the “Good News” repeatedly extolled and rejoiced about in the New Testament? Is the good news that Jesus came in order to show us how to live the Torah perfectly and now somehow we have grace when we still mess up, without offering sacrifices prescribed in the Sinai covenant? Such a thing is not part of the Sinai covenant, at least not that I have ever read. Surely you can understand our confusion when you say that we were under the covenant given at the mountain but then add in new things that weren’t mentioned at the Mountain. This new thing somehow changes a bunch of requirements that many here say “cannot change until heaven and earth pass away”.
I asked this question in so many words, I believe, several months ago, and you said you would get back to me on it. I’ve been waiting patiently, but now we are back on the topic and I am hoping to get an answer now.
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The new covenant was enacted when the perfect Priest offered the perfect Sacrifice once and for all by laying down His life on the cross.
"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matt. 26:26-28 NKJV)
"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matt. 26:26-28 NKJV)
Here goes:
And some of us think when He said "not ANY" - He actually meant it.
I can't help but think it's 'funny' how it takes lots of TheoMorphical pretzel-making to transform "not one yod or tiddle" into "well, just SOME of 'em..."
The simple Truth is that He warned us. And then, without ambiguity, actually put an end to "sacrifices" and "offerings" in His temple, where He put His Name, because of His promise to do exactly that: tear it down. For cause.
You simply can't DO what He said to ONLY do where He put His Name, when He took it away...for cause.
Simple (OK, OVER-simplified) answer: He is there since Genesis 1:1, and in every aspect since.
As to the 'Sinai Covenant' - like ALL of His Word, still in effect (EVEN when, Jer. 31:32, it's "My Covenant, which they broke") - this is why it's important to understand the FRAMEWORK of what He put in place. (The details of which I've outlined in any number of on-line, much longer, teachings.)
There is NO 'sacrifice' for 'intentional sin': rebellion. (and when this sinks in a Whole LOTTA what Paul wrote will change perspective; like when, "there remains no sacrifice"... once it's no longer in ignorance. It can only be UN-intentional once.) See Leviticus chapter 4, and the specifics, with the common theme.
No, there is no specified [human] sacrifice for deliberate rebellion to Him. I like the metaphor of a wood cutting, where the artist REMOVES the wood to form the picture. His whole Book tells the story.
The penalty for deliberate rebellion to him (see 'Adam') is death. And there's no 'sacrifice' to make that right. (But, thankfullly - He "knew the end from the beginning." And had a Plan.) The Way He made the universe ultimately requires that the 'equations balance,' arguably from physics and the conservation of mass-energy-momentum, to the consequences of a choice of life and death. Human sacrifice is pagan, and forced. Love, and substitution to bear guilt, is very different indeed. But it fits the balance in His 'Law'.
Why is it important we "be like the Bereans"? Why study all that "Olde Testament" stuff, to "show ourselves approved?" Why does all that Olde stuff about "sacrifices" and "offerings" (including things which Paul himself DID, after Yahushua!) still matter, if we literally now can NOT POSSIBLY even do it?
Like His appointed times, which we are also to memorialize - remember - "throughout your generations," and "forever," and "in all your dwelling places" - even if we can't "keep" those as specified either - they are reminders for us. Of things already done, for us, if we choose to enter via that gate that "few there be" than find the narrow path, and things yet to come.
After giving this some prayerful consideration, please re-read Hebrews 10:26-31, noting that distinction: "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the Truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins..." but, only 'judgment.' Yeah, it's a fearful thing...
His Covenants, every single one of them, are forever. He changes not. Thankfully!
And as for His 'REnewed Covenant,' [Brit Chadasha] in Jeremiah 31:31-37 - read it all very carefully. I WILL (future tense) "put My Torah in their minds..."
Honestly, has THAT happened?
How about, it won't be necessary for every man to teach his neighbor, saying "Know Yahuah!" (and most TRANSLATIONS don't even get THAT right!) because "they shall ALL know Me..."
Has THAT happened? Anyone? Bueller?
And notice the illustrations He uses: "IF those chuqqim [a truly 'legal term, 'ordinances']" can "depart from before Me," then, well, forgeddabboutit...
...cause, well, y'all deserve it, says YHVH.
Thankfully, His Covenant (and, ultimately, it IS 'echad') is forever. Even when we aren't.
Amen! And only those who are in this covenant, by true faith in Christ alone, are justified by His “blood of the new covenant.”
“But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood [i.e., “of the new covenant”], we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.” (Romans 5:8-10)
Apart from being justified by faith in Christ’s shed “blood of the new covenant,” a person is under the curse of the law and condemned to eternal death.
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.’ But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for ‘the just shall live by faith.’ Yet the law is not of faith, but ‘the man who does them shall live by them.’ Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree’), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.” (Galatians 3:10-14)
“Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:1-4)
Nice dodge, ineffective but nice. I’ll answer your question (it appears to be only one) but first are you tacitly acknowledging by your silence that you can’t show me the “new covenant” in scripture? And if not why does it factor so heavily in to your theology?
Now, I’ve always maintained that God could make whatever adjustments to His Law that He wanted, whenever He wanted. That’s why Abraham could marry his sister. Your objections don’t apply to me. God is explicit in Hebrews that the sacrifices and priesthood are no more (at least for now, prophesy seems to imply that something like them will re-emerge). He is also explicit in Acts that the uncircumcised can enter a holding area. You can be in communion with God as a Hellenized Acts 15 believer.
What you haven’t been able to claim is that you have a covenant. I’m still open to the idea. But I have to see it in writing, not your assumptions.
So the new covenant only covers the remission of sins?
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we ESTABLISH the law. — Romans 3:31 KJV
This verse alone, even in the English alone is pretty conclusive in nearly every english translation, but conveniently sidestepped by christendom.
Not so @rgmann
That’s a common Scripture that is taken waaay out of context. To understand that verse you have to read from chapter 1
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: IN WHOM WE HAVE REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, [EVEN] THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS: — Colossians 1:12-14 KJV
For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having MADE PEACE THROUGH THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS, BY HIM to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet NOW HATH HE RECONCILED IN THE BODY OF HIS FLESH THROUGH DEATH, TO PRESENT YOU holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: — Colossians 1:19-22 KJV
It is VERY clear that Apostle Paul is talking about the sacrifice of MessiYAH being the perfect offering…
And it shall be the prince’s part [to give] burnt offerings, and MEAT OFFERINGS, and DRINK OFFERINGS, in THE FEASTS, and IN THE NEW MOONS, and IN THE SABBATHS, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel. — Ezekiel 45:17 KJV
So now when you read the verse you quoted you get the full context
Let no man therefore judge you in MEAT, or in DRINK, or in respect of an HOLYDAY, or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. — Colossians 2:16-17 KJV
The verse you quoted is to do with offerings the believers not only kept the Sabbath they observed the feasts and the days in observance of what Christ commanded but they never presented sacrifices because they were in Christ, because Christ FULFILLED THE LAW OF SACRIFICE, which is also the reason there is no need to get circumcised…
@The Revolting Man knows full well what covenant @Asforme&myhouse is talking about. He has read the book of Hebrews. He just doesn't get it for some reason.
Nope, @The Revolting Man is 100% correct in his response...
The book of Hebrews is NOT for gentiles, it is written as a thorough explanation so that they Hebrews / Israelites / Jews can understand the vital importance of "The Lord's Supper"
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And [having] an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: NOT FORSAKING THE ASSEMBLING OF OURSELVES together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? — Hebrews 10:19-29 KJV
Which is the new covenant that jew, gentiles, bond, free ALL partake of...
It is THIS covenant that is before our very eyes being trodden under foot by so called ministries across the earth.
The gospel of salvation in MessiYAH YAHushuWaH is the same for Jew and Gentile, how we have been commanded to remember his death until he returns is the same for Jew and Gentile, the requirement of holiness is the same for all.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. — Matthew 28:19-20 KJV
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: ALL therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. — Matthew 23:1-3 KJV
The problem is and always has been sin
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW. — 1 John 3:4 KJV
We don't need to reword it.
From the beginning it has been the same issue perpetrated by ha-satan, do we live by the word of YAH or do we live by an interpretation of the word of YAH
Do we live by....
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. — Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
OR do we live by...
......hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? — Genesis 3:1 KJV
......Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. — Genesis 3:4-5 KJV
@Asforme&myhouse the covenant is NOT the law/torah, and the different covenants did not do away with the law/torah of YAH
If YAH said it he meant it...
As @Mark C rightly quoted...
Sadly MOST believers play commandment origami with the bible and end up becoming workers of iniquity/compromise.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. — Matthew 7:21-23 KJV
...and very aptly as men desiring to establish and maintain biblical families...
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. — Matthew 7:24-27 KJV
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I mistook your previous question to mean "when did the new covenant come into effect", apparently you were actually asking "what are the conditions or stipulations of the new covenant".
No, the context of Colossians 2:16-17 has nothing whatsoever to do with the old covenant “offerings” for sin. It quite plainly states that new covenant believers in Christ should not let anyone judge them with regard to keeping the old covenant dietary regulations and appointed yearly, monthly, and weekly religious observances. Don’t let anyone deceive you and bring you under that type of bondage, brothers!
“So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths [there’s absolutely nothing in the text that refers to old covenant “offerings” for sin here], which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.” (Colossians 2:16-17)
Paul makes this same basic point in two other passages of Scripture as well.
“You observe days and months and seasons and years [he’s criticizing them for observing these weekly, monthly, and yearly religious ordinances as if they are still required, for those who are dull of perception]. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.” (Galatians 4:10-11)
“Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.” (Romans 14:1-5)
The Apostle Paul couldn’t have made himself any clearer. Under the new covenant a believer is free to regard or disregard the old covenant dietary laws and appointed religious feasts and sabbath observances. They are, quite simply, no longer binding upon any believer in Christ to keep. Only a person who is ignorant and weak in the faith believes that they are still binding and will try to impose them upon others.
Sorry, but wrong. And - backwards.
The context is a letter written to people coming OUT of PAGANISM. They were coming to YHVH and His moedim. And - just as we see today! - people came unglued that they weren't keeping the good old PAGAN "holy-days" (imagine, if you will, someone coming to faith and deciding not to keep Halloween any more...or, well, other examples abound.
)"Don't let them judge you for keeping His feasts as opposed to the ones you folks USED to..." puts a whole different twist on it.
So, if Jesus meant that “not ANY” portion of the Mosaic law will be abrogated by His death (“My blood of the new covenant” Matthew 26:28), which includes the commandments pertaining to the old covenant Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifices, was the writer of Hebrews lying?
“Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.” (Hebrews 7:11-12)
“For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.” (Hebrews 7:18-19)
The last time I checked, “a change of the law” and “annulling of the former commandment” amounts to quite a bit more than “one jot or one tittle” (Matthew 5:18). Therefore, either the writer of Hebrews is a liar (which nullifies the inspiration and authority of Scripture), or Jesus was only referring to the moral commandments of the old covenant law, as the context makes abundantly clear.
They had already come out of paganism. They were believers in Christ and had already repented of their former false forms of worship. Now, they were confused as to whether they were required to be circumcised and keep the detailed ceremonial regulations of the Mosaic law. The Apostle Paul was properly teaching them that they did not. The Jerusalem council confirmed that they did not – “Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, ‘You must be circumcised and keep the law’—to whom we gave no such commandment…” (Acts 15:24). Only “the false brethren” (Galatians 2:4) or Judaizers within their ranks were teaching that circumcision and obedience to the ceremonial regulations of the law were still required, which is a “perversion” of the gospel of God’s grace (Galatians 1:7).
@rgmann you are conflating issues from letters written to different congregations. It's like calculating 1 + 1 and coming up with eleventeen.
Apostle Paul along with the other Apostles were teaching the new believers "customs"
And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew [them] into the marketplace unto the rulers, And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city, And teach CUSTOMS, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans. — Acts 16:19-21 KJV
The issue today is that "Christians" live according to Roman customs with a "Christian" religious label.
And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men [and] brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or CUSTOMS of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans. — Acts 28:17 KJV
Paganism is not simply a form of worship it is a way of life just like being holy unto YAH is a way of life.
The invisible elephant in the life of Christians is that greek and roman pagan lifestyles and moral standards have been baked into the legal and social frameworks of virtually every country where democracy exists.
Which is why ALL who live godly in MessiYAH YAHushuWaH WILL suffer persecution, it is unavoidable no matter how amiable you are.
@rgmann I strongly encourage you to go and study for yourself to understand what "iniquity" aka "lawlessness" means.
As a head start read all of 1 Samuel 15
...For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king...
— 1 Samuel 15:23 KJV
After your study read the words of YAHushuWaH in Matthew 7:21-23
Apostle Paul along with the other Apostles were teaching the new believers "customs"
And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew [them] into the marketplace unto the rulers, And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city, And teach CUSTOMS, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans. — Acts 16:19-21 KJV
The issue today is that "Christians" live according to Roman customs with a "Christian" religious label.
And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men [and] brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or CUSTOMS of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans. — Acts 28:17 KJV
Paganism is not simply a form of worship it is a way of life just like being holy unto YAH is a way of life.
The invisible elephant in the life of Christians is that greek and roman pagan lifestyles and moral standards have been baked into the legal and social frameworks of virtually every country where democracy exists.
Which is why ALL who live godly in MessiYAH YAHushuWaH WILL suffer persecution, it is unavoidable no matter how amiable you are.
@rgmann I strongly encourage you to go and study for yourself to understand what "iniquity" aka "lawlessness" means.
As a head start read all of 1 Samuel 15
...For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king...
— 1 Samuel 15:23 KJV
After your study read the words of YAHushuWaH in Matthew 7:21-23
Is Psalms 1 still valid or applicable to Christians?
Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. The ungodly [are] not so: but [are] like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish. — Psalm 1:1-6 KJV
That verse says nothing about a new covenant. Why are you so addicted to this phrase?
Seems like some important details, yes no?