1 corinthians 9:19-23

[Asforme&myhouse]

You quoted my question but you never answered it, what law, where can the law be found?

The Law written on the heart. I will sum it up, love one another.

So can you please help me to understand, @rgmann can you help explain this too, with your logic, transport yourself back approximately 2000 years, knowing, that at the time of the apostles there was no Christmas celebration, no easter celebration, no new years, no valentines etc, as we know it now and none of the assembly where you fellowship celebrate those feasts.
In light of how you are so ardently supporting your position, you, would be in the fellowship of believers promoting the rebranding of pagan festivals and celebrations and then proclaiming them as festivals and feasts that the congregations should keep in honour of our saviour and king YAHushuWaH ?

How would you convince the brethren using only the gospels and the tanak ?

I wouldn’t try to convince anyone right now to keep any celebration, so why would I do it 2000 years ago? We have liberty in Christ to keep any celebration provided it does not violate our conscience, or cause a brother to stumble by pressuring him to keep something that violates his conscience.

Keep in mind the apostle that you received the gospel from is attested by the other apostles to be a keeper of the law.

Jacob aka James stated to Saul/Paul...... .....all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. — Acts 21:24 KJV

What law was he keeping ?

The Law of Christ. The fact that Paul’s reputation preceded him in this is very telling and undermines your point. Paul didn’t try to get Jews to stop practicing the Mosaic Law, but neither did he reprimand Jews for not keeping the ceremonial aspects of it, the moral is similar in the new covenant because it has to do with loving one another. He taught people to stay as they were when they were called.
1 Corinthians 7:18-20 KJV
[18] Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. [20] Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Notice that Paul says keeping the commandments of God is what is important, yet he tells the uncircumcised not to get circumcised, but Torah clearly states In Genesis 17:10 KJV
[10] This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

And again.

Leviticus 12:1-3KJV
[1] And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, [2] Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
[3] And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Paul keeps the Law of Christ where circumcision is circumcision of the heart, done without hands.

Galatians 5:6 KJV
[6] For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Then spake YAHushuWaH to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. — Matthew 23:1-3 KJV

Please answer and explain how that works, what would be your sermon to the faithful believers of MessiYAH?

Would you also tippex out Jeremiah?

Thus saith YAHuWaH, Learn not the way of the heathen.... — Jeremiah 10:2

How would you explain to the brethren that what YAH said through his hand picked prophet is no longer relevant?

Jesus taught that under the old covenant, to people under the old covenant, He was completing His mission of fulfilling the old covenant. He came not to destroy but to fulfill. The first portions of the Gospels are under the old covenant. After Christ Jesus rose from the grave he taught his disciples many things and then sent them out as His Apostles to teach all that He commanded them, which things we are not told in the gospels, other than new command I give you that you love one another, but they are the things that are taught in the other books of the New Testament i.e. Paul teaching that physical circumcision is not required to obey the Law of Christ.

Very astute, the issue is the usage of words that are not in the text, for example "moral" law, can anyone find that word phrase or description in scripture?
The scriptures interpret themselves.
Using extra non biblical words to reinterpret what YAH had already clearly stated through his prophets and apostles is falling into satans reinterpretation trap clearly exposed in Genesis 3

None of the words we have written in this thread are in Scripture... including the word scripture. The Bible (also not in the Bible) wasn’t written in English. Words that convey ideas that are understood about Scripture are not verboten. If there is only one classification of law, please explain the following verses.

Genesis 26:5 KJV
[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Exodus 18:20 KJV
[20] And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

Leviticus 26:46 KJV
[46] These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the Lord made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

 

[JudahYAHites]

The Law written on the heart. I will sum it up, love one another.

So Love is Love ?

Where do you derive your standard of how we are to love one another?

I wouldn’t try to convince anyone right now to keep any celebration, so why would I do it 2000 years ago? We have liberty in Christ to keep any celebration provided it does not violate our conscience, or cause a brother to stumble by pressuring him to keep something that violates his conscience.

So according to you we can keep any celebration, and the only arbiter is our own conscience, so if you believe in your conscience you can celebrate diwali, ramadan and I can take myself to celebrate the Brazilian carnival and someone else takes part in the Love is Love celebration we are all right because our conscience allows us to?

Please pause take a breath and think before you respond.

The Law of Christ. The fact that Paul’s reputation preceded him in this is very telling and undermines your point. Paul didn’t try to get Jews to stop practicing the Mosaic Law, but neither did he reprimand Jews for not keeping the ceremonial aspects of it, the moral is similar in the new covenant because it has to do with loving one another. He taught people to stay as they were when they were called.
1 Corinthians 7:18-20 KJV
[18] Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. [20] Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

So, the "moral" law where do we find its foundation?

Notice that Paul says keeping the commandments of God is what is important,

Where do we find the commandments of God?

yet he tells the uncircumcised not to get circumcised, but Torah clearly states In Genesis 17:10 KJV
[10] This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

And again.

Leviticus 12:1-3KJV
[1] And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, [2] Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
[3] And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Paul keeps the Law of Christ where circumcision is circumcision of the heart, done without hands.

Galatians 5:6 KJV
[6] For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.




Jesus taught that under the old covenant, to people under the old covenant, He was completing His mission of fulfilling the old covenant. He came not to destroy but to fulfill. The first portions of the Gospels are under the old covenant. After Christ Jesus rose from the grave he taught his disciples many things and then sent them out as His Apostles to teach all that He commanded them, which things we are not told in the gospels,

Are they told in the letters of the apostles?

Did Jesus ever say that the law and the prophets are done away with?

Did heaven and earth pass away?

other than new command I give you that you love one another, but they are the things that are taught in the other books of the New Testament i.e. Paul teaching that physical circumcision is not required to obey the Law of Christ.

None of the words we have written in this thread are in Scripture... including the word scripture. The Bible (also not in the Bible) wasn’t written in English. Words that convey ideas that are understood about Scripture are not verboten.

Words that are not written in scripture help to bring about new doctrines detaching believers from the truth of scripture into the truth of someones interpretation of scripture. When we use the scriptures to interpret the scriptures and stick with that we are then literally all singing from the same hymn book, harmoniously, in unity. You're viewpoint and doctrinal explanation do not harmonize with scripture, and the explanations that you use originated many years after the apostles walked the earth. Do the research for the origen's (misspelt on purpose) of the doctrinal position that you hold on to.

You (please don't take it personally as I am including all who hold the same flawed doctrinal assumptions) sound like King Saul trying to explain how he did obey what YAH said for him to do, when he obviously had not, then jumping around his explanation, then saying, come with me let's worship YAH together.

Read all of John 17
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. — John 17:8 KJV

For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. — Acts 20:27-30 KJV

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (work fully, i.e. accomplish; by implication, to finish, fashion:—cause, to (deed), perform, work (out)) your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. — Philippians 2:12-13

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. — Romans 12:1-2 KJV

If there is only one classification of law, please explain the following verses.

Genesis 26:5 KJV
[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Exodus 18:20 KJV
[20] And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

Leviticus 26:46 KJV
[46] These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the Lord made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

There is only one classification of law in scripture....

HOLINESS UNTO YAH​

With the understanding of holiness you will understand that there is order in the kingdom and requirements to please and do the will of YAH.

From YAH speaking to Cain

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. — Genesis 4:7 KJV

To YAH speaking to us...

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. — 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 KJV

All the way to meeting YAHushuWaH in the air....

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. — Hebrews 9:28 KJV

read all of Ephesians 2

And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. — Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; — Ephesians 2:15 KJV

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; — Ephesians 2:19-20 KJV

I fully understand your position and where it came from....

[It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]: If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us: If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Of these things put [them] in remembrance, charging [them] before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, [but] to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. — 2 Timothy 2:11-15 KJV

Shalom Love and Blessings in MessiYAH

 

[The Revolting Man]

Spectacularly and horribly wrong. You can't get this from Hebrews, you have to want it to mean that. It is plain throughout the entire book that the New Covenant is now.



Christ is NOW our high priest. What kind of high priest? One of the Old covenant? Nope...



But what of the old law?



The law has changed, we are no longer under the old law of Moses but the new of Christ. Why?



And just in case it's not entirely clear the new is in force now, Heb 9....



The old covenant was a mere shadow, a copy to point to the coming penultimate covenant in Christ.

Who here offers sacrifices for their sins? Who here has a Levitital priest offering sacrifice for them in Jerusalem. None. The temple is gone. The Old Covenant is gone.

You realize that only verse you quoted that even had the word covenant in it was a quote of Jeremiah 31 which is absolutely and unequivocally a future covenant?

I’m not doing this again. Hebrews 8 is an example that the covenant is capable of being changed because Jeremiah 31 says it can be. That’s it. There’s no new covenant made. The Law has been changed, we no longer need a priesthood, but there’s no new covenant. Hebrews 8 is using Jeremiah 31 to prove a point. The Law has changed in one key aspect; the priesthood and by extension the temple.

If you read scripture in it’s entirety instead of a proof verse at a time you would know that. But even in this case none of your proof verses even contain the words “new” or “covenant”.

Why is this phrase so important to you? Why can your theology not exist without it?

 

[The Revolting Man]

Thank you for revealing to all that you intentionally misread things in order to support your false conclusions. I’m optimistic about the future as well!

Where did I admit that? Don’t be bitter. Realizing your cherished assumptions are not explicitly in scripture is a good thing. Now you can refine and strengthen them. You’ve seen the weakness and you can reinforce it. You should be thanking me. You had a blind allegiance to a phrase and now you can replace that with allegiance to the ideas you wanted that phrase to represent.

 

[The Revolting Man]

The Law written on the heart. I will sum it up, love one another.

What Law is written on our hearts?

 

[Mark C]

[Paul]...yet he tells the uncircumcised not to get circumcised

No, he doesn't! Read it carefully.

But he objects to those who MANDATE such as a pre-condition.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

So Love is Love ?

Where do you derive your standard of how we are to love one another?



So according to you we can keep any celebration, and the only arbiter is our own conscience, so if you believe in your conscience you can celebrate diwali, ramadan and I can take myself to celebrate the Brazilian carnival and someone else takes part in the Love is Love celebration we are all right because our conscience allows us to?

Please pause take a breath and think before you respond.



So, the "moral" law where do we find its foundation?



Where do we find the commandments of God?



Are they told in the letters of the apostles?

Did Jesus ever say that the law and the prophets are done away with?

Did heaven and earth pass away?




Words that are not written in scripture help to bring about new doctrines detaching believers from the truth of scripture into the truth of someones interpretation of scripture. When we use the scriptures to interpret the scriptures and stick with that we are then literally all singing from the same hymn book, harmoniously, in unity. You're viewpoint and doctrinal explanation do not harmonize with scripture, and the explanations that you use originated many years after the apostles walked the earth. Do the research for the origen's (misspelt on purpose) of the doctrinal position that you hold on to.

You (please don't take it personally as I am including all who hold the same flawed doctrinal assumptions) sound like King Saul trying to explain how he did obey what YAH said for him to do, when he obviously had not, then jumping around his explanation, then saying, come with me let's worship YAH together.

Read all of John 17
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. — John 17:8 KJV

For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. — Acts 20:27-30 KJV

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (work fully, i.e. accomplish; by implication, to finish, fashion:—cause, to (deed), perform, work (out)) your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. — Philippians 2:12-13

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. — Romans 12:1-2 KJV




There is only one classification of law in scripture....

HOLINESS UNTO YAH​

With the understanding of holiness you will understand that there is order in the kingdom and requirements to please and do the will of YAH.

From YAH speaking to Cain

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. — Genesis 4:7 KJV

To YAH speaking to us...

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. — 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 KJV

All the way to meeting YAHushuWaH in the air....

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. — Hebrews 9:28 KJV

read all of Ephesians 2

And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. — Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; — Ephesians 2:15 KJV

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; — Ephesians 2:19-20 KJV

I fully understand your position and where it came from....

[It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]: If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us: If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Of these things put [them] in remembrance, charging [them] before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, [but] to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. — 2 Timothy 2:11-15 KJV

Shalom Love and Blessings in MessiYAH

Hyperbole much? I say, love one another and you conflate that with homosexuality? Might want to have that checked. A lawful use of the law of Moses is using it to understand definitions of things that might be unclear, but christians are not under the law of Moses.

 

[Mark C]

...but christians are not under the law of Moses.

There it is. So many errors, misuses of words (ie "under", ignoring 'torah', etc) in just one Big Lie.

Perhaps we can at least, at last, agree why some of us don't self-describe as whatever you think that other word means. I'm not "under the law" of their sun-god day, either. But I DO talk about 'xtianity' and the Whore Church. Since Scripture doesn't seem to make the point abundantly clear enough, even Yahushua's own Words... well, THAT explains why.


PS> And, yeah, @YAHites is correct. Without His instruction, all of it, as Written, you can't define, much less argue AGAINST, BS, like "love is love." Is using 'dishonest weights' - even in blissful ignorance - what He means by "love"? How about "standing by the blood of your neighbor" (Lev. 19:16 - now, THAT's 'Olde'!) when he brings "law enforcement" (and how's THAT for "under the law!") to take his daughter to have her breasts cut off?

You could even say that we're seeing the bitter fruit of when "lawlessness (Torah-less-ness!) abounds..."

 

[DawoodSaar]

Considering the homosexual side of the methodist denomination is using the exact same argument to promote homosexuality... It really isn't hyperbole to simply point out you agree with trans men lesbian preachers when you say that "Christian's are no longer under Moses." You remove yourself from the Law, and then provide no other standard to replace it with than "love" which has been separated from any meaning.

All the Law is summed up "love" but the one word summary contains, by necessity, everything it is the summation of. A car, is the word we use to describe a collection of many small bits and pieces. A plane is a collection of many parts. To say, "all you need to fly is a plane, but we are no longer under the laws of aerodynamics so we no longer need wings." is an equivalent form of ludicrous.

Romans 13:9 is regularly skipped over because it is pretty clear that he starts a list of commands that people regularly break and then indicates all the rest of them are included in the summary. Love IS the entire Law. Not some lobotomized do-whatever-you-like set of preferences. Car without wheels? Plane without wings? Useless!

 

[JudahYAHites]

Hyperbole much? I say, love one another and you conflate that with homosexuality? Might want to have that checked. A lawful use of the law of Moses is using it to understand definitions of things that might be unclear, but christians are not under the law of Moses.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. — Matthew 7:13-14 KJV

 

[DawoodSaar]

"A lawful use of the Law of Moses." What is the law that you are using to determine HOW you use the Law of Moses? What is this OTHER law? Whose law is it? What other god has a law that says it's ok to ignore YHWH's Law, but maybe sometimes use YHWH's Law as a set of suggestions?

 

[cnystrom]

What Law is written on our hearts?

@Asforme&myhouse can speak for himself, but I believe he is describing the law of the Spirit as referenced in Romans 8:2. Now that we have the Spirit of God living inside of us we are no longer bound by the external written law that can only lead to sin and death. It is not that the Spirit is in in opposition to the written law, it is that the Spirit is a more accurate depiction of God's will than the written law.

An example of this would be David eating the showbread in 1 Samuel 21. How does David know that it is ok for him to eat it?

You might not agree with Paul, but that is clearly what he is saying.

You can say that this position leads to licentiousness. However this would be the same position taken by Paul's detractors which Peter refutes in 1 Peter 3:

"His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

If you are going oppose both Peter and Paul you would really be kicking against the goads so to speak.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

Considering the homosexual side of the methodist denomination is using the exact same argument to promote homosexuality... It really isn't hyperbole to simply point out you agree with trans men lesbian preachers when you say that "Christian's are no longer under Moses." You remove yourself from the Law, and then provide no other standard to replace it with than "love" which has been separated from any meaning.

All the Law is summed up "love" but the one word summary contains, by necessity, everything it is the summation of. A car, is the word we use to describe a collection of many small bits and pieces. A plane is a collection of many parts. To say, "all you need to fly is a plane, but we are no longer under the laws of aerodynamics so we no longer need wings." is an equivalent form of ludicrous.

Romans 13:9 is regularly skipped over because it is pretty clear that he starts a list of commands that people regularly break and then indicates all the rest of them are included in the summary. Love IS the entire Law. Not some lobotomized do-whatever-you-like set of preferences. Car without wheels? Plane without wings? Useless!

You’re drawing false parallels, it’s completely outside the scope of what I am talking about and you know that. Many use the Torah to claim that Jesus isn’t the Messiah, so obviously y’all are claiming that Jesus isn’t the Messiah. See how stupid that is?

 

[Mark C]

An example of this would be David eating the showbread in 1 Samuel 21. How does David know that it is ok for him to eat it?

Easy: "Choose life..." from Deuteronomy 30.

And Yahushua, the Torah Made Flesh, confirmed that the 'man after Yah's own heart' was correct.

 

[cnystrom]

No, he doesn't! Read it carefully.

But he objects to those who MANDATE such as a pre-condition.

No. Paul tells us in Galatians 5 that is a sin for a gentile to be circumcised.

"2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

You would really be stretching the meaning of verse 2 to mean that it is ok, Paul just wants you to wait to do it later, or something.

Verse 3 says that if you try it, you put yourself in a very bad place, and then verse 4 says you are doomed.

No the real meaning of Paul's words are in verse 5:

"5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. "

That is it. No additions. No need to ever get circumcised.

And it that was not clear, verse 6 clarifies it:

"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."

Circumcision has no value. Zip. Zero. You may not believe it, but he could not be any more clear.

What is important? He is clear about that, too:

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."

If you are teaching something else, you are teaching a different gospel.

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

"A lawful use of the Law of Moses." What is the law that you are using to determine HOW you use the Law of Moses? What is this OTHER law? Whose law is it? What other god has a law that says it's ok to ignore YHWH's Law, but maybe sometimes use YHWH's Law as a set of suggestions?

Does all of the law of Moses apply to everyone?

 

[Mark C]

Many use the Torah to claim that Jesus isn’t the Messiah, so obviously y’all are claiming that Jesus isn’t the Messiah. See how stupid that is?

If "jesus" did away with the 'law' - then, yeah, it's easy: such a false prophet (Deut 12, 13, etc, etc) would be a "liar, and the Truth not in him."

Which is why the Real One, in His first public address, said EXACTLY, unequivocally what He did in Matthew 5:17-19. So there's no doubt. (Years, ago, my Sanhedrin-level rabbi friend, who got an advanced degree from Loyola University, and had heard ALL the "did away with the Law" BS, was SHOCKED when I pointed him to that verse. He'd NEVER heard such at a Catholic institution. You'll NEVER win a real Torah-observant jew to a fake messiah who they KNOW can't be the Real One if he did what the Whore Church claims, from changing His Sabbath, to dying so pagans could have a ham sandwich.)

That's why, I argue, as does Paul, that people get suckered into "another jesus, whom we have NOT preached" - etc.

It's why I contend ("His mama NEVER called Him 'jesus'!") that there is a BIG difference between the Torah-Made-Flesh, Who's very NAME means "Yah-saves," and the fake who 'did away with the law,' and thus - by His Own Written Word - can NOT be the prophesied Messiah.

 

[cnystrom]

Easy: "Choose life..." from Deuteronomy 30.

And Yahushua, the Torah Made Flesh, confirmed that the 'man after Yah's own heart' was correct.

If it was lawful as you claim than you invalidate Jesus's reply to Pharisees. Jesus's point in Luke 6 was that it was not lawful.

If you are claiming that there were clues in the Old Testament that the Spirit trumps the written law, then we are in agreement.

 

[DawoodSaar]

The prohibitions in Leviticus don’t apply to Christians. - The Reformation Project

reformationproject.org

"1. Christians are not under Leviticus Law or Jewish Law or Moses' Law.
2. The New Testament never tells Christians they must keep the Jewish Law. The Bible says we are not required to keep the Law, Acts 15:24, 21:24-25.
3. The New Testament specifically tells us we are not under law but under grace, Romans 6:14, 10:4, Galatians 3:24-25." https://www.gaychristian101.com/Leviticus.html

The association there is a tad uncany don't you think? These pro-homo groups are using your EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS to justify themselves, as every other "Christian" does to justify eating swine and working on Sabbath.

The enemy knows his church's tools incredibly well, and uses them to great effect.

To answer the question "does the Law of Moses apply to everyone?" No. It only applies to Israel and Judah.

So who does the "New Covenant" apply to? (Hint: Jeremiah 31)

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

If "jesus" did away with the 'law' - then, yeah, it's easy: such a false prophet (Deut 12, 13, etc, etc) would be a "liar, and the Truth not in him."

Which is why the Real One, in His first public address, said EXACTLY, unequivocally what He did in Matthew 5:17-19. So there's no doubt. (Years, ago, my Sanhedrin-level rabbi friend, who got an advanced degree from Loyola University, and had heard ALL the "did away with the Law" BS, was SHOCKED when I pointed him to that verse. He'd NEVER heard such at a Catholic institution. You'll NEVER win a real Torah-observant jew to a fake messiah who they KNOW can't be the Real One if he did what the Whore Church claims, from changing His Sabbath, to dying so pagans could have a ham sandwich.)

That's why, I argue, as does Paul, that people get suckered into "another jesus, whom we have NOT preached" - etc.

It's why I contend ("His mama NEVER called Him 'jesus'!") that there is a BIG difference between the Torah-Made-Flesh, Who's very NAME means "Yah-saves," and the fake who 'did away with the law,' and thus - by His Own Written Word - can NOT be the prophesied Messiah.

Can you remove the enigmatic language and state plainly what you mean here?