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aklirich

@cwcsmc, the analogy was perfect. A little point though. The authority of a husband is not earned. Yes, it is obtained from the Lord just because you are a man and have found a wife and have found favour from the Lord. I guess what you meant is the way that given authority is exercised. Naturally, a considerate and wise husband will exercise that authority in the fear of God while a son of Belial will ruin the life of his wives and children in the course of exercising that authority. I don't mean to nick-pick but I want to be sure that you are not saying that men have to earn authority from their wives, say, after "proving" themselves.

The way I see it, that process of proving is during courtship....with prayer, fasting and quietness in the presence of the Holy Spirit. Once a woman has accepted to be a wife to a man, he automatically become her head. Now, how he choses to use that headship is a different story entirely.
 
""Being given a wife is not a signal from God to do as you please. ""

I absolutely agree with this


" a lot of people misunderstand is the fact of which dispensation one is talking about"

That sounds like the argument against polygamous marriages. I believe that Paul (the apostle) put that to rest when he said wives should submit to their own husband AS UNTO THE LORD (Eph 5:22). In other word, a proof of the validity of a wife's Christianity is on display in how she submits to her husband. There was no caviar, no op-out clause.

"What role do women that are in a marriage and the members are not believers play? Are they bound by the same structure as believers? If not, then the authority of a man does not apply"

Absolutely. A Christian woman is encouraged not to leave their unbelieving husbands. Should she chose to remain with an unbelieving husband, she has to practice her faith. The husband is the head of the wife. Submit to you OWN husband, as unto the Lord. etcetera. Peradventure, through these, the unbelieving husband will be saved. In the scenario that you described, a believing wife should submit to her unbelieving husband , as if submitting to the Messiah.

I Cor 7:13-16:

" 13And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 15But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. 16For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?"


"everything has to be filtered through Christ "

The problem is not filtering things through Christ; the problem is filtering things through socially acceptable norms. Yes, it sounds medieval to say that married women should submit to their own husband as if submitting to Yeshua the Messiah. We cringe at the thought of it, given our social conditioning. May I say this: observing God sanctioned order in homes is a major antidote to the moral ill of the society.
 
cwcsmc said:
I must be doing something right in God's eyes.
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Sorry to butt in, sir, but I have to add to this. Although our walk isn't at the same level as yours, there are affirmations that I must have correctly interpreted and followed the leading of the Holy Ghost. Things and events that are unmistakably positive reinforcements of what I perceive as God's will.

I am like a child being led from point A to point Z and I am grateful for His patience.
 
Eccl 9:11

"I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."

PM is not the destination, heaven is the destination. If I practice PM and my wives are merrily on their way to hell (through strange sacrifices) what does it profit me. When wives are encouraged and taught to submit to their own husband (as unto the LORD), it is not to the husband's benefit; it is to their own benefit.
 
cwcsmc said:
I am only describing my walk, I have no idea, and am in no position to judge another. Where one is in life is where one is, only you can decide the progression.
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It was not meant to be in the negative, sir. I am happy that the affirmations I experienced were confirmed by somebody else experiencing similar events. :D

Walking by faith is not easy.
 
@cwcsmc .
Since "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" all we can take from it are correction and instruction in righteousness. If the Lord can use a donkey to add a sentence to the bible, we do well if we take every part of the scripture and learn from them.

From the welfare system to the legal system to societal attitude, the world has reinforced the idea that men are too stupid to be trusted as you will trust a captain of a ship. The church should not give an inch in rebuffing that narrative. What we should rather do is, through forums like this, teach men on how to bear rule righteously. Not provoking their wives. Not provoking their children. etc. But to say that, because of Solomons and Nabals of this generation we should modify the fact that the husband is the head of a wife (in all situations) with all the practicalities that that entails will be giving an inch to the enemy.

Thank God for your home and the bliss you enjoy. Thank God for @pebble’s and his(or her home) and for their inquisitiveness. Thank God for my home and teachings I have had to embark on. Our goal, ultimately, is to lead our families to heaven.
 
Agree with Aklirich also. Ecclesiastes is one of my favourite books of the Bible (maybe I'm weird). Solomon had God-given wisdom and as a result many of his wise writings were put into the scriptures. Sure he also stuffed up, like everyone does, but that does not negate the validity of the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon.
 
@JayJ. In response to your post on the other thread.

To be fair to @Andrew and @FollowingHim though, they seem to have thought that I asked for advice. If someone asks for an advice and you gave it and they remain stubborn, you might be excused for holding them in contempt. My post was a response to another post. Steve thought that it should be a separate thread by itself and, as it is in the introduction, it might have been misconstrued as seeking advice. That was why, on a few occasions on that thread, I said something along the line of "leaving my case aside". I had wanted to move to the principles, do we have extra-scriptural requirements of people? and such. I was looking for my views to be corrected scripturally. I was looking to challenge issues that I feel are not absolutely based on the scripture.

The Lord is in control with regard to my family. Fortunately we are not at a stage where a second wife is at the door and I have to convince the first wife. No. I found a truth from the scriptures and I brought it up with my wife for consideration. We are discussing from the bible. Questions have moved from the mundane to the challenging. There are questions I had no answer to (at least convincingly) and we accept that. The initial suspicion that maybe these questions are because someone else is in the offing, I class as legitimate fear from someone that have known and only known monogamy all her life. Was I taken aback by the ferocity of her reactions? Yes. She was here once to browse and remained unconvinced then. The light of the scripture is dealing with all that gradually. For the words that HE spoke are spirit, and they are life.

My back and forth, which I must respectfully say have not yet been corrected FROM THE SCRIPTURES, is about principles. That's all. But I do understand why someone might take offence when they thought they have given an advice in good faith and that advice was thrown in their face.
 
cwcsmc ,this last piece is a response to @JayJ from this forum(viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4311). I felt that that forum should not be hijacked...so I posted a reply here.

I am sorry you feel that way. Really am. Reading back today, I saw good people giving advice to a case of a family that is in distress. However, I was in the bubble of trying to get a scriptural discussion going. I accept that having such discussion in the "introduction" section might not be ideal.

While trying to push for discussions on principles, you have no idea how your analogy of a captain has helped enhance my outlook on leadership. My family will definitely benefit from that. A true captain listens: that is what I took from your contribution.
 
aklirich, you crack me up. Note the underlined portions below:

aklirich said:
Hi SC. Great to hear your story. Dare I say that I have been suffering in silence on a similar situation.

The difference in my case is that I merely mentioned to my wife that polygamy is not unscriptural (after 2 Samuel 12:8 "appeared" to me in a new way). I have (and since not had) any one in mind as a potential second wife in particular.

It has been unbearable. The suspicion, the sly comments etc have been too much.

Now, this is my personal opinion and largely based on my personal experience. If I get to a point where I am persuaded to take a second wife, I will struggle a lot with the concept of love-not-hate. I have two reasons for saying this:

1. None of the fathers in the scripture practiced it.
2. Should the disposition of my wife continue to be what it is towards polygamy, she will rather leave the marriage ( and bitterly ruin all that we have built) than to live in a polygamous relationship.

Given these reasons, my view is that if a man can afford it, a second home should be started for a new wife until a first wife is willing to accept the leading of a man in this situation. The arrangement should be open and made know to everyone (including family and friends).

Yes, the first wife might not have bargained for a polygamous relationship at marriage , but if God is leading a man in a particular way, He is often angry with such a man if they dither in doing His will (regardless of who is influencing them). This move becomes pertinent when a point is reached when a first wife sees clearly that polygamy is scriptural (haven been lovingly taken through the scripture) but refuses to be led by her husband. I see this as an act of deliberate disobedience.

This is my view and I am happy to be corrected. But be gentle.
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How gracious of you to overlook our fault in misunderstanding your original purpose. You intro your post with "this is my personal opinion and largely based on my personal experience", you close with "this is my view and I am happy to be corrected", and in the middle you presume to offer practical advice to others with the intro that "my view is that...". So excuse us for "misunderstanding" your intentions. Sheesh.

Meanwhile, I think I already called out that your intentions became clearer when you basically ignored (and wasted the time of) all the people that responded in love to the actual words you used.

If you're not just a troll, this would be a good time for you to take some responsibility for the six pages of pointless discussion this has generated, only for you to come around and disavow the obvious intention of your original words.

For anyone else reading this thread, I don't think there's anyone involved in the leadership of BF that wouldn't stipulate that as a matter of scriptural principle the man is the head of the home. Period, end of discussion, if all we're talking about is scriptural principles.
 
aklirich said:
I am sorry you feel that way. Really am. Reading back today, I saw good people giving advice to a case of a family that is in distress. However, I was in the bubble of trying to get a scriptural discussion going. I accept that having such discussion in the "introduction" section might not be ideal.
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aklirich, apparently you and I cross-posted. This is more or less the kind of acknowledgment I was looking for.

You're going to hear over and over again that it's really not about the scriptural principles—that's the easy part. It's about how we apply the principles. For example, Jesus gave us a commandment "to love one another". We can spend the rest of our lives unpacking that and applying it, but there are going to be very few conversations in which a relentless return to that simple principle as if it actually settles anything is going to be helpful.

Another one is that we are to "speak the truth in love". How much truth? How much love? Is there an essential conflict between the two, or if we're doing it right do those things merge into a unity? There are some interesting conversations we could have around that, but ultimately there is no debate over the fact that there is such a principle.

Don't know if that helps any, but I'm tryin....
 
@Andrew. On matters of scriptures, I don't agree to disagree with people. Then one of use would have been un-teachable.

You missed the part where I said "Should the disposition of my wife continue to be what it is towards polygamy". So, should a wife be led to accept that polygamous relationship is righteous and her attitude remains " not in my backyard". How do you answer that question from the scriptures? That is the question I am asking.

I presented my personal opinions, you are yet to correct me from the scriptures (including on view you underlined) and I am supposed to just take your word for it?

You called me a troll, but you were the one that denigrated my contribution on another thread; what do you say to that? A husband should not be encouraged to study the bible with his wife?

Come on now...

I am sure you would have seen that I did not start this thread.. asking for advice. I was having a frank discussion within another thread.

You did not copy the part where the original comment said "I have given you your own thread due to the fact that comments on your position will quickly derail the other thread."

It might be that a discussion like this is not suited for the "introduction" section, but, regardless of how much contributions you have made before I joined this forum, that did NOT justify your going casting aspersions on my comments on other threads; especially since you DID NOT point out where I was wrong in those comments, on a matter of scriptures. You merely attacked my person using information that I shared here(presumably with friend) to undermine me. You were, basically, trolling me.
 
This is a response to JayJ/Yaakov from another thread.

Two words: False dichotomy.

Meanwhile, aklirich is being "upbraided", if that's the right word, for posting personal views and advice based on personal experience, rejecting the responses thereto and belaboring the obvious, and ultimately disavowing the express language of his original post.

The rest of your post is irrelevant.

aklirich, sorry to do this while I think you and I are on the verge of getting past this, but I thought you did a stand-up thing in not responding to Jay on the other thread, and I wanted to follow your lead.
 
Oh, good grief. Apparently I spoke too soon.

aklirich, I'm going to have to rest with cwcsmc on this one. I'll continue to pray for the health of your family and your righteous pursuit of the truth of God's word, but I'm no longer interested in responding to continual twisting of words. (To illustrate, I didn't call you a troll, but you called me one. And I'm not really even interested in trying to discuss it at this point; we've gone around in circles enough.)

¡Vaya con Dios, mi hermano!
 
Nice! Now cwcsmc and I are crossing each other! :lol:

Works for me! You buyin?... ;)
 
Aw, buuuurn!! I guess I earned that one.... :lol:

Not by much, sonny.... ;)
 
Man, I can't win. Guess I'm buyin after all.... :roll:
 
The man sounds like Mr crazy, alright. Good that that was from a non-Christian forum between a non Christian and a so called Christian. He is a "so-called-Christian" indeed.

That is why, as Christians, we teach our daughters that when they submit to their own husband, they are not doing him any favour, they are rendering themselves unto the Lord. Similarly, we teach our sons that, though their wives (in a Christian home) are to submit to them just because they are husbands, they will answer for how they use that responsibility (or fail to lead) to the Lord.

That is why our daughter, under the guidance of their fathers in particular, should not be carried away into marriage with any man who speaks a few "Christian-speaks". They, in prayer and fasting and in all diligence, should test all spirits; knowing that becoming one flesh is quite a spiritual exercise. May our young women be guided in taking steps towards marriage.
 
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