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An alternative take on head coverings

As do we all here...

Remaining unreconciled is "long hair being part of extra-holiness" and "long hair being a shame"...still waiting for an alternate explanation. As it stands, only Heiser's answers all the points including the "and because of the angel's"... let us know if you come up with something...
Once again you leave me confused Ish. You seem to describe a contradiction between the Nazarite vow and Paul's off-hand remark using the conventional wisdom that long hair on a man is shameful to illustrate the truth of a woman needing to cover her head during prayer and prophesying. Your proposed resolution appears to be to downgrade Paul to some sort of lesser scripture, something between the Apocrypha and the Gospels. I've noticed the tendency before. Obviously if Paul is basing his writings on some false Greek misunderstandings of human anatomy then there couldn't be a contradiction because Paul is clearly not scripture in that scenario.

It's an unnecessary contortion. I think you're making a bit of a jump saying that the Nazarites meant that long hair was a universal sign of "extra-holiness" at some point. It was a sign of being under a vow. The vow could have been for a negative reason. What seems undeniable is that the Nazarite vow (and Paul cutting his own hair after the completion of his own vow) seems to suggest that shorter hair was the expected norm for men. Which is all that Paul was saying to begin with. Obviously he didn't think it was violating God's Word for men to have long hair because he had long hair himself while he was under vow. As usual with these alleged "problems" in the "text", a little bit of humility and searching, and relinquishing of biases and assumptions, reveals a lack of understanding; not a problem with the Bible. Especially not one that has to be explained away by implying that the 13 Pauline letters, 2 Peter and much of Acts is tainted by pagan falsehoods and hence can't possibly be the inspired Word of God.
 
For me, 2 wives 3 kids, I decided those restrictions don't apply to me ... yet, but you darn well better believe if I ever have 5 wives and 20 kids I'll reconsider if I should be an elder or not.
This was all developed over on the other thread, and I'm the one that argued that the justification that 'a man with a big family doesn't have time to be an elder' is bunk. Any child older than a few years and all adult females should be an asset to the family; otherwise you're doing it wrong.

More accurately: Otherwise you've bought into the cultural norms that cause so many people to conclude that children are 'expensive' and a drain on one's time.

Three women, 12 children, six grandchildren, and most of my waking hours are ministry. I know guys with one wife and two children who can't make time to spend with their kids who don't do squat for the body of Christ.

If Paul had any good reason to limit elders and deacons to one wife, that's not it.

See the other thread for more details.
 
This was all developed over on the other thread, and I'm the one that argued that the justification that 'a man with a big family doesn't have time to be an elder' is bunk. Any child older than a few years and all adult females should be an asset to the family; otherwise you're doing it wrong.

More accurately: Otherwise you've bought into the cultural norms that cause so many people to conclude that children are 'expensive' and a drain on one's time.
Three women, 12 children, six grandchildren, and most of my waking hours are ministry. I know guys with one wife and two children who can't make time to spend with their kids who don't do squat for the body of Christ.
If Paul had any good reason to limit elders and deacons to one wife, that's not it.
See the other thread for more details.
Well to many of us I think you are a quintessential example of how to do it right; that said, 12 kids is even still within the periphery of monogamy (this was even a target for mono. couples in USSR they had an award for 12 kids in a family [mat -geroin = hero mother]).

You also live in a modern culture with all the benefits of having literate wives and cars, etc. (as I also mentioned in that thread). For me, the tons of kids, and wives still need attention angle still fits until someone can offer a better reason why Paul seems to have limited those positions (guys like myself who interpret the Greek to mean "1" / not pushing that understanding on you). Your point about knowing monogamous men who don't spend enough time with their kids makes the point... if it's hard for monog. guys how much more so... poly.
I think you gotta be fair and surely you realize you are not the average Joe Andrew. Heading up political parties, playing tons of instruments, being a legal eagle, and general renaissance man, these are hardly common traits. That may be something interesting to farm out of the 60+ poly families you guys have counseled; how many of them had highly "successful" experts of time management over-achiever mega-talented time management guys at the helm?
I would speculate that you are an exception that proves the rule but even with 12 kids (that's what I want).

Hardly a bunk position to have...if you consider where I'm coming from with my understanding of the verses. Not a position I want to have either. If you wanna carry this over to the other thread I'll follow but I think you are right; we already discussed it over there. To clarify, if someone from my flock came to me with your skillsets and wanted to be an elder, etc. I'd see no issue with it based on my current understanding.

shalom
***edit*****
one last thought, I don't think I'm calling children expensive, I'm calling them a "ministry", that said as my quiver fills up I'll be knocking for advice... I also deeply desire to have a better explanation than I currently have for these verses.
Sorry I posted this here, not being rebellious just remember we had 3 threads about that issue (deacons, bishops, and elders or so) and I don't remember which one you and I had the back and forth about 20+ kids taking time. (I searched and didn't find it).
 
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Once again you leave me confused Ish. You seem to describe a contradiction between the Nazarite vow and Paul's off-hand remark using the conventional wisdom that long hair on a man is shameful to illustrate the truth of a woman needing to cover her head during prayer and prophesying. Your proposed resolution appears to be to downgrade Paul to some sort of lesser scripture, something between the Apocrypha and the Gospels. I've noticed the tendency before. Obviously if Paul is basing his writings on some false Greek misunderstandings of human anatomy then there couldn't be a contradiction because Paul is clearly not scripture in that scenario.

It's an unnecessary contortion. I think you're making a bit of a jump saying that the Nazarites meant that long hair was a universal sign of "extra-holiness" at some point. It was a sign of being under a vow. The vow could have been for a negative reason. What seems undeniable is that the Nazarite vow (and Paul cutting his own hair after the completion of his own vow) seems to suggest that shorter hair was the expected norm for men. Which is all that Paul was saying to begin with. Obviously he didn't think it was violating God's Word for men to have long hair because he had long hair himself while he was under vow. As usual with these alleged "problems" in the "text", a little bit of humility and searching, and relinquishing of biases and assumptions, reveals a lack of understanding; not a problem with the Bible. Especially not one that has to be explained away by implying that the 13 Pauline letters, 2 Peter and much of Acts is tainted by pagan falsehoods and hence can't possibly be the inspired Word of God.
I've tried to engage you on the root issue in the thread about "divine inspiration what is it" but you stopped participating. We've made some really good progress as a group over there I think it'd be edifying for you to participate.

Hope you understand I want to get the general principles worked out over there before I engage you regarding your "divine inspiration" specific questions over here.

If you're interested to work that out with us over there, then we'll have a platform to work this out...this issue springs from our understanding of inspiration.
Hope you understand and don't take offense at that. Just too hard in a forum type setting if we don't get where the other is coming at from a divine inspiration perspective.
shalom
 
I can't buy into the Nephilim explanation for "because of the angels." If women's long hair is seducing angels then why in the world would Paul recommend covering only for prayer and prophecy and not 24/7? Seems like the angels would want to catch these vixens when they're least focused on spiritual matters, maybe while they're brushing their enchanting long locks before bed, or absentmindedly twirling their tempting tresses during polite conversation.

I don't know what it means though but it has something to do with how women should pray within the hierarchy. Maybe angels have unknown special policing duties on the spiritual highways and when women pray outside of their covering they get rerouted, lol.

We do know what gets bound or loosed on earth, gets bound or loosed in heaven. We do know there are spiritual truths superimposed into our physical realm that are nearly impossible to wrap our minds around. Do we really understand how going under water, eating crackers, drinking grape juice, or removing a small piece of flesh from our sons somehow makes us more holy?
 
Well to many of us I think you are a quintessential example of how to do it right; that said, 12 kids is even still within the periphery of monogamy (this was even a target for mono. couples in USSR they had an award for 12 kids in a family [mat -geroin = hero mother]).

You also live in a modern culture with all the benefits of having literate wives and cars, etc. (as I also mentioned in that thread). For me, the tons of kids, and wives still need attention angle still fits until someone can offer a better reason why Paul seems to have limited those positions (guys like myself who interpret the Greek to mean "1" / not pushing that understanding on you). Your point about knowing monogamous men who don't spend enough time with their kids makes the point... if it's hard for monog. guys how much more so... poly.
I think you gotta be fair and surely you realize you are not the average Joe Andrew. Heading up political parties, playing tons of instruments, being a legal eagle, and general renaissance man, these are hardly common traits. That may be something interesting to farm out of the 60+ poly families you guys have counseled; how many of them had highly "successful" experts of time management over-achiever mega-talented time management guys at the helm?
I would speculate that you are an exception that proves the rule but even with 12 kids (that's what I want).

Hardly a bunk position to have...if you consider where I'm coming from with my understanding of the verses. Not a position I want to have either. If you wanna carry this over to the other thread I'll follow but I think you are right; we already discussed it over there. To clarify, if someone from my flock came to me with your skillsets and wanted to be an elder, etc. I'd see no issue with it based on my current understanding.

shalom
***edit*****
one last thought, I don't think I'm calling children expensive, I'm calling them a "ministry", that said as my quiver fills up I'll be knocking for advice... I also deeply desire to have a better explanation than I currently have for these verses.
Sorry I posted this here, not being rebellious just remember we had 3 threads about that issue (deacons, bishops, and elders or so) and I don't remember which one you and I had the back and forth about 20+ kids taking time. (I searched and didn't find it).

In my defense, I was just kidding around with you. I wasn’t trying to restart the “Mia” convo over here :)
 
Comments on the comments...

yet Western Judeo-Christian culture allows baseball hats,

No it doesn't. In rural communities to this day men remove their ball caps when entering churches, reciting the pledge or saying prayers.

Grecko-Roman culture

This sounds like the same trope as the usual attempts by Protestants to dismiss headcoverings based on this or that theory of Roman belief practice. But it's wrong. Headcovering has been reported to have been practiced by all the ancient major civilization of the near East. We know from the Bible it was practiced in the time of Jacob. The most ancient hard example I've found is from 12th century BC Assyrian law (see article 40 and 41). You'll notice it was an extremely important cultural practice and one that related to the status of women (reflecting their being under the headship of a husband). This law is contemporary to the time of the judges in Israel.

Not only that but these same people would later conquer Israel and then were among the earliest people groups to convert to Christianity (alongside the Greeks and a couple others); possibly joining the faith even before the Greeks. The influence of the Greco-Romans is comparatively nominal.

Furthermore, as both Paul and Tertullian point out, all the churches practice this; that that includes people of many many different cultures; not just Greco-Roman ones. It would be silly for headcovering to be practiced by non-Greek cultures because of the mistaken understandings of Greeks.

shame for a woman to have her head uncovered and to have short hair and a shame for a man to have long hair

This wasn't an argument based on Greco-Roman belief but from nature. If you don't get that, look at a side by side picture of a dyed short haired feminist and a women with long hair and listen to your loins. Still don't get it, listen to some video of screeching blue haired ball busters. Look at their eyes, listen to their attitudes. Even today, shearing of the hair is commonly what young women do when they reject femininity or men and has been observed to be a reliable indicator of a mentally damaged woman.

Does Women's Hair Signal Reproductive Potential? I haven't looked at the paper itself, but the abstract seems to indicate, yes.

Absolutely it does. Hair reflects the vitamin levels in the body and the healthy functioning of various organ systems. In particular, it shows vitamin A levels; which if lacking impairs fertility (permanently even) and leads to dull, faded brittle hair.

What do you make of Shibboleth's post and the possibility that hair covering is still basically a modesty issue?

There is certainly a modesty issues related to women's hair; and this was probably one of the reasons European women traditionally covered their hair all the time. However, the context of 1 Cor 11 is about prayer and prophecy relating to glory and headship. Not modesty. Though one can make an argument that what triggered Paul's response was women removing their covering to pray/prophecy.

why the apostle says it's a shame for a man to have long hair, which is in direct contradiction to the torah regarding Nazarites who were considered "extra holy" and ordered by G-d to have long hair when they took their vow.

Men growing their hair to look like women is self evidently shameful. Why God decided for Nazarites to grow their hair is the real question.
 
I don't know what it means though but it has something to do with how women should pray within the hierarchy. Maybe angels have unknown special policing duties on the spiritual highways and when women pray outside of their covering they get rerouted, lol.

We do know what gets bound or loosed on earth, gets bound or loosed in heaven. We do know there are spiritual truths superimposed into our physical realm that are nearly impossible to wrap our minds around. Do we really understand how going under water, eating crackers, drinking grape juice, or removing a small piece of flesh from our sons somehow makes us more holy?

My take on it is that there are a lot of important things that angels are ignorant about that God has purposed to reveal to us that angels might learn them from us (Eph 3:10). But angels, having their own language and (I assume) a military culture, do not receive official information from people wearing the wrong rank. A "contentious" man with long, pretty hair might offer up a prayer that God will hear, or utter a prophecy that God has sent, but the angels wouldn't take the word of someone making a mockery of the chain of command so it does not edify them.

I'm probably way off, but that's how I look at it.
 
I can't buy into the Nephilim explanation for "because of the angels." If women's long hair is seducing angels then why in the world would Paul recommend covering only for prayer and prophecy and not 24/7? Seems like the angels would want to catch these vixens when they're least focused on spiritual matters, maybe while they're brushing their enchanting long locks before bed, or absentmindedly twirling their tempting tresses during polite conversation.

I don't know what it means though but it has something to do with how women should pray within the hierarchy. Maybe angels have unknown special policing duties on the spiritual highways and when women pray outside of their covering they get rerouted, lol.

We do know what gets bound or loosed on earth, gets bound or loosed in heaven. We do know there are spiritual truths superimposed into our physical realm that are nearly impossible to wrap our minds around. Do we really understand how going under water, eating crackers, drinking grape juice, or removing a small piece of flesh from our sons somehow makes us more holy?

I'll explain this from my belief, since I independently drew a parallel to the Nephilim (this is the first instance I've seen of others figuring it out). I haven't listened to the podcast for lack of time but read the underlying article it discusses. It had promise but completely misses the strong argument for their focus on the sexual aspect.

If you read the Enochian literature you'll see that the angels are probably quite sensitive to the issue of hierarchy and headship. It was this issue which caused the angelic rebellion and war in heaven. It is THE flashpoint in their history. None of the major commentators I've read on this passage post Reformation picked up on this connection; probably because we pulled Enoch from the Bible and are not familiar with it. But it was VERY familiar to the first century Christians. It contains the oldest known prophecy of Christ. Many early Christians considered it scripture, Ethiopian Orthodox do to this day, and both Jude and Peter reference or quote Enoch.

Those same angels who rebelled against authority were also seduced by the beauty (glory) of human women. So here you have two issues wrapped in one; but the primary one is authority. That's why Paul talks about a 'symbol of authority'. The article misses this point, being transfixed upon the idea's of it relating to beauty and Greek understandings of the body.

Paul in 1 Cor 11 is in the beginning of several sections talking about practice in church assemblies. This is a time when the angel to that church would be present (the article mentions the Dead Sea Scroll's documenting this belief, but you see it in Revelation as well). Might that same angel be responsible for carrying our prayers to the Lord? There is also in our day to day lives, our guardian angel's; which I think Enoch also mentions.

Their argument implies this is about bad angels or angels being tempted. And while that's certainly an issue that was not Paul's reasoning and I think in the case of the average angel the issue will be the very opposite. God's angels are very sensitive on this matter and may very well be unlikely to serve women/churches who demonstrate by their lack of covering their own open rebellion against God's creation order.

Think about it this way. By covering their head, women demonstrate their submission to God's order in creation. On the other side is feminism, which rejected the covering; a doctrine which results in upturning the hierarchy of creation to place women at the top as goddesses. An angel looking at these two groups of women, which would they think are the true servants of God? Which would they protect/serve?
 
Why Should Women Cover Their Heads Because of the Angels? is fundamentally from a pro-egalitarian (and hence anti-covering, anti-hierarchy, anti-God perspective).

From the intro...

The interpretation of 1 Cor 11:2-16 remains one of the more baffling problems of exegesis for contemporary scholars, clergy, and laity.

It is only baffling because it clearly contradicts their feminist equality perspective on the world. Before the rise of feminism in the 19th century, none were baffled by this passage. It didn't represent a 'problem', because Christians everywhere of every culture and faith tradition followed its injunctions. The only 'issue' was understanding the 'because of the angels' passage; and even that was only an intellectual matter for theologians, as there were plenty of other obvious reasons given and all obeyed the command.

Almost all those who try to set aside the commands of Paul resort to saying it is 'confusing' or 'hard to understand'. But the plain reading is obvious.

from the conclusion...

the apostle fell heir to a worldview in which veiling could not be disassociated from sexual connotations widespread in antiquity. The mention of "angels," therefore, is a reflex of such connotations.....what Paul is doing: here we find him negotiating between a principle of "neither male nor female," which for him counts as ultimate, eschatological reality "in the Lord" (Gal 3:28; 1 Cor 11:11- 12), and socially-conditioned views and assumptions which have mitigated his vision of what such a principle of equality may imply for social relationships between women, men, and even angels. It is hard to escape the notion that Paul's instruction in 1 Cor 11:2-16 implies that a woman, even when she prays or prophesies, is the social inferior of the man. We are thus left with an irresolvable tension in Paul. Of theological interest is, therefore, less what he concludes on the matter, but that he was struggling at all to come to terms with Christian identity within a complex matrix of sexually-conditioned mores and social practices of the Mediterranean world.

In other words, Paul was really in favor of total equality, he only wrote about the covering because of the social mores of the day and therefor we can dismiss his commands as not relevant to today. But this is clearly contradicted by Paul's teachings on the hierarchy in that very passage.

"socially-conditioned views and assumptions which have mitigated his vision of what such a principle of equality may imply" just screams 'gender is a social construct'. So much so the first time I read it my brain's pattern recognition thought it said 'socially-constructed'.
 
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Here I am critiquing the underlying 'scholarly' work linked at the podcast page which provides the evidence they cite:

PAUL'S ARGUMENT FROM NATURE FOR THE VEIL IN 1 CORINTHIANS 11:13-15:A TESTICLE INSTEAD OF A HEAD COVERING​

First of all, this is not some impartial scholarly work but from a highly biased feminist perspective.

Paul's notorious argument in 1 Cor 11:2-16 for the veiling of women in public worship is frequently criticized for being logically convoluted and confused.

This is a direct attack on scripture, meant to cast doubt that we can know what it means; that anyone has ever known what it meant. This is simply not true. Such criticism is unique to our time, wherein feminists in rebellion against God have sought to write this passage out of scripture since it is so devastating to their ideology. Anyone who leads with this sort of take on 1 Cor 11 (and many many do) can be safely dismissed out of hand as they are engaging in sophistry. But we shall continue anyway.

As evidence of this viewpoint he offers a quote from Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza saying she "expresses the scholarly assessment". And where did this come from? "Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza, In Memory of Her: A Feminist Theological Reconstruction of Christian Origins." [emphasis added]

I think that speaks for itself! But we shall dig deeper.

The quote from Elisabeth itself is full of lies, my comments [in brackets]:

We are no longer able to decide with certainty which behavior Paul criticizes [wishful thinking]
and which custom he means to introduce in 1 Cor 11:2-16. Traditionally,
exegetes have conjectured [not conjectured, know, it was the continuous practice for 1800 years; never controversial]
that Paul was insisting that the pneumatic womenleaders [women 'leaders'?!?!?] wear the veil according to Jewish custom. Yet, v. 15 maintains that
women have their hair instead of a head-covering (περιβολαίου), [it doesn't, that's a slight of hand deception, different Greek word is translated covering in v15 from prior verses]
and thus militates against such an interpretation. In a very convoluted argument, [its not, fairly straightforward actually]
which can no longer be unraveled completely [more lies], Paul adduces several points
for "this custom" or hair fashion. [he was not talking about a 'hair fashion' and no one thought that for 1900 years]

Yet more evidence why Paul prohibited women from teaching. The author goes on to quote two other people in the same vein about how hard the passage is to understand. Meaningless sophistry.

The rationale for the natural shame of a man with long hair is obscure

Only to a society pushing trannys, cross dressing, and unisex attire. But this is a feminist perspective so I guess we should expect that. To non-damaged people familiar with healthy femininity and masculinity the problem with men growing their hair like women is painfully obvious.

Especially problematic is the statement that a woman's long hair is given to her instead of a covering (άντι περιβολαίου) in v. 15b. As traditionally understood, this statement nullifies the previous argument that a woman should wear a covering since her long hair apparently serves that purpose

It doesn't. They're sowing confusion by mixing up words. This just shows they either haven't a clue what the passage is teaching or (more likely) are being deceptive. Maybe they really are confused and having a hard time understanding. Maybe then they shouldn't pretend to be experts on the matter then. :oops:

A satisfactory explanation of this argument from nature should resolve the apparent contradiction and enable this argument to support Paul's contention that women should wear the veil in public worship.

There is no 'apparent contradiction' because what is going on is two different Greek words are being translated to 1 English word (covering). They know this but ignore it because it suits their argument. The contradiction is artificial. This is the foundation for their whole argument and it is false.

Furthermore Paul never says 'public worship' but rather speaks of prayer and prophesying; things that regularly happen in private. Here the author demonstrates his intellectual carelessness, confusing common latter day Christian practice with what the text teaches.

The term περιβόλαιον in v. 15b provides the key for explaining this argument from nature. This portion of the verse is usually translated, "For her hair is given to her instead of a covering (περιβολαίου)."

This is the key to their argument and its an outright lie. "Instead of" is the minority translation. Most say 'for a' or 'as a'. To claim this is the 'usual translation' is a lie. But it is a necessary lie because they need the hair to be the substitute for a covering for their line of argumentation to result in dismissing the need for a covering. Which is funny because they later argue that hair is a testicle, which is why it needed to be covered. Their arguments are thereby incoherent and self contradictory.

Notice also they hang their argument on one man's interpretation of περιβόλαιον completely divorced from its usage elsewhere in scripture.

Now, we could get lost in the weeds of their arguments on περιβόλαιον. But I haven't the time to go there today so I'm going to cut to the chase. This is just a variation on a common contemporary argument, that the hair is a covering and we needn't use cloth. It was unheard of before feminism and is simply not true. That is contradicted by the passage itself where it earlier commands a cloth covering. It is also contradicted by history. The native speakers did not interpret this passage as meaning women must cover using their hair. Instead, they took it to mean a cloth covering. The only early controversies were over whether or not virgins should cover (see Tertullian around 200 AD, who also commented on the increasingly lax amount of cloth used to cover).

But even these modern commentators don't really believe the hair is the covering, or they'd require women to have long hair (not shorn, and long about the shoulders consistent with περιβόλαιον). But they don't because their purpose is only to provide excuses why women needn't cover.

Their logic that female hair is genetalia and the equivalent to testicles is tortured at best. Based on the arguments provided, I don't think the ancients even believed that. All this argument from mistaken Greek medical understandings is silly because the Christian practice of head covering traces not to the Greeks, but to the Hebrews and was practiced by them (and surrounding cultures) going back thousands of years.

For these other cultures it had to do with straightforward status and propriety, not archane medical theories. The ancient law I linked to earlier demonstrates that for the ancients, a woman by wearing a covering showed she was under the authority of a man. This is exactly what Paul says as well (symbol of authority). Feminists today even think it is a symbol of authority. While they on the one hand deny it has any meaning, they on the other hand assume a woman wearing a covering was forced to do so by her husband (i.e. demonstrating she was under his authority).

Modern feminists understand this intuitively, without any cultural teaching, echoing exactly what Paul said. Let's get real here. It's just a cloth. If the creator of the universe wanted you to pray to him while standing on your head, and you wanted to be heard, you'd stand on your head. God's rules. Feminist's real objection is they don't like differing rules for women. They don't like being under authority. They are in rebellion against God.

And even if Paul was appealing to a Greek understanding of hair drawing out semen when he says "Doesn't nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him". This is a tertiary argument, coming practically at the end in v15. He already abundantly made it clear what the covering was about (authority, headship, glory, etc). That he appealed to a lost cultural viewpoint doesn't mean the other reasons are no longer true.

But you wouldn't know that from this article as it not once anywhere mentions Paul's main arguments. The words 'authority', 'glory', 'hierarchy', and 'headship' are not found even once in the entire paper. It is just one big handwaving exercise from Greek culture with no serious attempt to understand what the passage itself says. This is not a serious scholarly article, not a serious attempt to rightly understand the passage. But rather an attempt to deceive.

And so given this obvious deception as to the content of the text in question (1 Cor 11), I have a hard time believing anything else the author claims about Greek culture which are harder for me to verify. He is not a credible witness.

This isn't a serious take on scripture, but another feminist attempt to write it off as cultural and something we can ignore. As such, I harbor extreme concerns about any teacher basing their opinions of scripture on this. The whole point of construing women's hair as genitalia isn't to explain Paul's reasoning, but the get women to think "that's silly", which it is, so she'll dismiss the headcovering idea from her mind. It also serves to make people embarrassed to talk about the passage. They even say as much...

Since the physiological conceptions of the body have changed, however, no physiological reason remains for continuing the practice of covering women's heads in public worship, and many Christian communities reasonably abandon this practice.

But that's not historically why they abandoned the covering. They abandoned it because of the ideologies of feminism and equality. Feminism is rebellion against God and His divinely created social order.

This article is from top to bottom a pack of lies and deception. And yet...

The article presents a compelling case and is, to Dr. Heiser’s knowledge, the only approach that provides a coherent explanation as to why the head covering warnings are important

What double speak. So 'important' that they don't apply to today. I think it would be more accurate to say 'the only coherent explanation that doesn't contradict feminism'. While some may find this article convincing on its own, divorced from the text it pretends to interpret, within the greater context of what Paul actually writes and the greater history of headcoverings both in scripture and out, it is abjectly silly.

tldr; This theory is yet more feminist bullshit, lies, and hand waiving aspersions. It isn't convincing in the least. Its just more feminist gobligook that makes no serious attempt to study the passage. An honest scholar should be ashamed to cite it except to point and laugh. :p
 
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Your point about knowing monogamous men who don't spend enough time with their kids makes the point... if it's hard for monog. guys how much more so... poly.
I would say I was making the point that whether you 'have time for ministry' depends 100% on your motivation and time management skills and 0% on the number of members of your family. But the bunk thing wasn't directed at you, so sorry about that, and the rest of it we ought to take back to the other thread if we want to continue, but I think we all said what we wanted to say over there.

I blame @Asforme&myhouse for bringing this back up.... :eek:;):p

JK, AFM&MH! No harm, no foul.
 
LOL! Laughter does the heart good.... :cool:
 
I believe that we each have ministering angels and that the head covering was a sign for each woman to her own ministering angel/angels.
She has a form of headship/leadership over them (they are there to serve her) and, like the tzit-tzit for men, it is their reminder of being under the authority of the father or husband.
 
Here I am critiquing the underlying 'scholarly' work linked at the podcast page which provides the evidence they cite:

PAUL'S ARGUMENT FROM NATURE FOR THE VEIL IN 1 CORINTHIANS 11:13-15:A TESTICLE INSTEAD OF A HEAD COVERING​

First of all, this is not some impartial scholarly work but from a highly biased feminist perspective.



This is a direct attack on scripture, meant to cast doubt that we can know what it means; that anyone has ever known what it meant. This is simply not true. Such criticism is unique to our time, wherein feminists in rebellion against God have sought to write this passage out of scripture since it is so devastating to their ideology. Anyone who leads with this sort of take on 1 Cor 11 (and many many do) can be safely dismissed out of hand as they are engaging in sophistry. But we shall continue anyway.

As evidence of this viewpoint he offers a quote from Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza saying she "expresses the scholarly assessment". And where did this come from? "Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza, In Memory of Her: A Feminist Theological Reconstruction of Christian Origins." [emphasis added]

I think that speaks for itself! But we shall dig deeper.

The quote from Elisabeth itself is full of lies, my comments [in brackets]:



Yet more evidence why Paul prohibited women from teaching. The author goes on to quote two other people in the same vein about how hard the passage is to understand. Meaningless sophistry.



Only to a society pushing trannys, cross dressing, and unisex attire. But this is a feminist perspective so I guess we should expect that. To non-damaged people familiar with healthy femininity and masculinity the problem with men growing their hair like women is painfully obvious.



It doesn't. They're sowing confusion by mixing up words. This just shows they either haven't a clue what the passage is teaching or (more likely) are being deceptive. Maybe they really are confused and having a hard time understanding. Maybe then they shouldn't pretend to be experts on the matter then. :oops:



There is no 'apparent contradiction' because what is going on is two different Greek words are being translated to 1 English word (covering). They know this but ignore it because it suits their argument. The contradiction is artificial. This is the foundation for their whole argument and it is false.

Furthermore Paul never says 'public worship' but rather speaks of prayer and prophesying; things that regularly happen in private. Here the author demonstrates his intellectual carelessness, confusing common latter day Christian practice with what the text teaches.



This is the key to their argument and its an outright lie. "Instead of" is the minority translation. Most say 'for a' or 'as a'. To claim this is the 'usual translation' is a lie. But it is a necessary lie because they need the hair to be the substitute for a covering for their line of argumentation to result in dismissing the need for a covering. Which is funny because they later argue that hair is a testicle, which is why it needed to be covered. Their arguments are thereby incoherent and self contradictory.

Notice also they hang their argument on one man's interpretation of περιβόλαιον completely divorced from its usage elsewhere in scripture.

Now, we could get lost in the weeds of their arguments on περιβόλαιον. But I haven't the time to go there today so I'm going to cut to the chase. This is just a variation on a common contemporary argument, that the hair is a covering and we needn't use cloth. It was unheard of before feminism and is simply not true. That is contradicted by the passage itself where it earlier commands a cloth covering. It is also contradicted by history. The native speakers did not interpret this passage as meaning women must cover using their hair. Instead, they took it to mean a cloth covering. The only early controversies were over whether or not virgins should cover (see Tertullian around 200 AD, who also commented on the increasingly lax amount of cloth used to cover).

But even these modern commentators don't really believe the hair is the covering, or they'd require women to have long hair (not shorn, and long about the shoulders consistent with περιβόλαιον). But they don't because their purpose is only to provide excuses why women needn't cover.

Their logic that female hair is genetalia and the equivalent to testicles is tortured at best. Based on the arguments provided, I don't think the ancients even believed that. All this argument from mistaken Greek medical understandings is silly because the Christian practice of head covering traces not to the Greeks, but to the Hebrews and was practiced by them (and surrounding cultures) going back thousands of years.

For these other cultures it had to do with straightforward status and propriety, not archane medical theories. The ancient law I linked to earlier demonstrates that for the ancients, a woman by wearing a covering showed she was under the authority of a man. This is exactly what Paul says as well (symbol of authority). Feminists today even think it is a symbol of authority. While they on the one hand deny it has any meaning, they on the other hand assume a woman wearing a covering was forced to do so by her husband (i.e. demonstrating she was under his authority).

Modern feminists understand this intuitively, without any cultural teaching, echoing exactly what Paul said. Let's get real here. It's just a cloth. If the creator of the universe wanted you to pray to him while standing on your head, and you wanted to be heard, you'd stand on your head. God's rules. Feminist's real objection is they don't like differing rules for women. They don't like being under authority. They are in rebellion against God.

And even if Paul was appealing to a Greek understanding of hair drawing out semen when he says "Doesn't nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him". This is a tertiary argument, coming practically at the end in v15. He already abundantly made it clear what the covering was about (authority, headship, glory, etc). That he appealed to a lost cultural viewpoint doesn't mean the other reasons are no longer true.

But you wouldn't know that from this article as it not once anywhere mentions Paul's main arguments. The words 'authority', 'glory', 'hierarchy', and 'headship' are not found even once in the entire paper. It is just one big handwaving exercise from Greek culture with no serious attempt to understand what the passage itself says. This is not a serious scholarly article, not a serious attempt to rightly understand the passage. But rather an attempt to deceive.

And so given this obvious deception as to the content of the text in question (1 Cor 11), I have a hard time believing anything else the author claims about Greek culture which are harder for me to verify. He is not a credible witness.

This isn't a serious take on scripture, but another feminist attempt to write it off as cultural and something we can ignore. As such, I harbor extreme concerns about any teacher basing their opinions of scripture on this. The whole point of construing women's hair as genitalia isn't to explain Paul's reasoning, but the get women to think "that's silly", which it is, so she'll dismiss the headcovering idea from her mind. It also serves to make people embarrassed to talk about the passage. They even say as much...



But that's not historically why they abandoned the covering. They abandoned it because of the ideologies of feminism and equality. Feminism is rebellion against God and His divinely created social order.

This article is from top to bottom a pack of lies and deception. And yet...



What double speak. So 'important' that they don't apply to today. I think it would be more accurate to say 'the only coherent explanation that doesn't contradict feminism'. While some may find this article convincing on its own, divorced from the text it pretends to interpret, within the greater context of what Paul actually writes and the greater history of headcoverings both in scripture and out, it is abjectly silly.

tldr; This theory is yet more feminist bullshit, lies, and hand waiving aspersions. It isn't convincing in the least. Its just more feminist gobligook that makes no serious attempt to study the passage. An honest scholar should be ashamed to cite it except to point and laugh. :p

Hey, I just wanted to ping you and let you know I'm not ignoring what you wrote. This post and the previous are a lot to take in; thank you for taking the time to thoughtfully process this piece. I got a lot going on now and I will get back to you. I scanned what you wrote and the only thing that was nagging at me (no feminist pun intended), and I thought I really need to write, is that even if points of the article reference research done by feminists, this does not invalidate their research.
Some of the most interesting "bible codes" I read about were written about by an atheist. His errancy in faith however, to his credit, did not make his claims invalid.

We all have our drives that drive us to research certain aspects of scripture; as a Jew my eyes are always way open for stuff in the New Testament which validates the keeping of the torah in the modern day; I may be wrong in my perspective and I think it's safe to say the majority of Christian theology would say I'm in grave error, yet that's something that really interests me because I'm on the "wrong side" of christendom so to speak. In the end I may be wrong, we'll see.
So...just because a feminist article is quoted by the primary researcher's article to support part of his article ... uncovering that a feminist was involved in the research only goes to motive...it doesn't suprise me at all that a "christian feminist" would have the level of interest to dig and dig and dig on any verse which seemed inequitable to her.
The end result being her research, may or may not be wrong but the research stands on it's own.

Take it from one called "legalist" "Judaizer" etc. more than I can count; motive is not all that matters in biblical interpretation.
I know you wrote a lot and put more thought into than this and I know brother this is not the full force of your argument and it deserves further analysis.
I'll get there, it's just I can't give it the time it needs now and it sure seemed the whole exposé about the main scholar footnoting research from a feminist contributed to a significant portion of your perspective. She can be wrong about her feminism (depending on what era was the feminism), and right about cognate usages.

shalom and thanks again for really digging in and sharing your discoveries
 
let you know I'm not ignoring what you wrote.

Thanks for the note. That was a more level headed response than I expected. No hard feelings, I presume any wall of text like that will be ignored by most :). They're hard to digest. Oh, and I took a few harsh digs in there; those weren't directed at you but at the paper's authors and Mr. Heiser. I'm not engaging in shoot the messenger.

I understand that most Christians don't believe the covering is for today. While the motive is too often fear of the world, and while the scriptures ought to be clear enough; they still are often told good sounding arguments which sound convincing to the average layman. Especially in the face of peer pressure.

But teachers are held to a higher standard and scholars ought to know better and in this case I know they know better. I can see how they're crafting deceptive arguments to reach their foregone conclusion.

Really, its too bad. This is one of the denser passages in Paul's letters; containing an unexplored gold mine of information that is highly relevant to today.

even if points of the article reference research done by feminists, this does not invalidate their research.

In theory I agree with you. But in practice feminists are engaged in a bald faced effort to rewrite scripture to justify their rebellion and are full of lies and deceit. If they were self professed Satanists I'd have a higher view of their opinion and standing for at least they are honest about who they serve. But I guess I should at least give this guy credit for not hiding his bias.

But let's be real here. We all know that 99.999% of professed feminist's approaching the question of headcovering will have 1 and only 1 goal: proving they don't have to cover. And they won't reach any other conclusion than that. The only question is, did they toss aside a diamond while rooting in the mud?

Now, there is an off chance he's right about the Greek perspective on long hair and this would help in understanding how the Greek and Latin early church viewed the covering. But I'd need to hear some early church father opinions to back it up and some connection to how other ancient cultures thought about it and how this core understanding related to Paul's other arguments. I mean, even if the author is 100% right in his conclusions, this piece is so shallow and deceptively written that it should have been rejected from publication. It really needs fleshing out more. However being feminists, I expect that they crammed every bit of pro evidence in there they could find and this is all there is to it.

But even if right about the Greeks, that would not come even close to invalidating the covering unless they could show how it invalidated Paul's other arguments (which they didn't even touch) and show that the Greek understanding was held by the 1st century Hebrews AND Assyrians AND other early Christian cultures AND that the covering was based on this and not ancient practice. But they didn't touch ANY of that.

just because a feminist article is quoted by the primary researcher's article to support part of his article ... uncovering that a feminist was involved in the research only goes to motive..

Yes and no. First of all, no Christian author who held to the fidelity of scripture would hold out a feminist work entitled "A Feminist Theological Reconstruction..." as exemplary of the scholarly opinion unless they wished to slander scholars. Especially when he ignored the totality of history on the practice of head coverings (before and after Christ). Not only did he quote that work, he led with it and it was used in service of deceitful sophistry. This points not just to his motive, but to his bias, his judgment, and his deception.
 
they need the hair to be the substitute for a covering for their line of argumentation to result in dismissing the need for a covering. Which is funny because they later argue that hair is a testicle, which is why it needed to be covered. Their arguments are thereby incoherent and self contradictory.

Ok so that's not quite accurate. What he is arguing is that the word shouldn't be translated covering but instead testicles, and that is why Paul wanted the hair covered.

But it is still nonsense. Chrysostom, writing in the 300's didn't seem to think the hair was a testicle. I wonder, had things changed that much in 200 years? Or did maybe he have a better understanding of his own language than some feminist professor in modern America?

The podcast failed to link to the Mark Goodacre criticism and Martin's response. Those can be read at:

Goodacre criticism: http://markgoodacre.org/peribolaionJBL.pdf
Martin's Response: https://outofexileshow.files.wordpr...d-as-testicle-a-response-to-mark-goodacre.pdf

Goodacre CV: http://www.markgoodacre.org/CV.pdf
Martin's page at Saint Xavier University (SXU) Professor of Religious Studies, Troy Martin, Ph.D: http://web.sxu.edu/twm1/
 
What do I think about @Shibboleth 's post that hair covering is basically a modesty issue? I think first and foremost it is a traditional issue about modesty, in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 supported by the unveiling of a woman's hair was considered a humiliation and punishment Isaiah 3:17; Numbers 5:18 on the loosening of the hair of a woman suspected of adultery.
I also beleive it it a traditional issue about headship

1 Corinthians 11:2-16


"2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and G-d is the head of Christ. 4 Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. 7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. 10 Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from G-d. 13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, 15 but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of G-d."

In the end one can look at it as an issue of tradition because the Church has no such practice.

I also think there's a spiritual issue here but honestly I haven't worked out enough scripture to support my idea but I'll post it if/when I can validate it with scripture.
Thank you Kevin, it is quite different for me to read so many who want to talk about head covering. When I was a teen and before ever reading the scriptures about women covering their head I heard a calling to cover my hair and began wearing head wraps. I stopped for nearly 20 years when I was lead again to cover my head. Although at this point I don't do it all of the time I can say I feel an anointing over me when I do. I believe it brings Jehovah great joy when I do. It is through my personal relationship with Yahweh that guides me. I gladly listen.
My relationship with Him is always strengthened when I take time to listen and truly work on a personal 1 on 1.

Just the point of view from a woman who wears a head covering.
 
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