Husbands?
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General And Jesus said to them, “I ask you, ...?"
- Thread starter frederick
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To get this thread back on its rails....; a line of questioning I've been thinking of to ask.
Throughout the Bible we are told, even commanded, to trust in God and there is blessing for those trusting in Him.
For example, in Proverbs 3:5; Trust in Yahweh with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
And Jeremiah 17:7; Blessed is the man who trusts in Yahweh And whose trust is Yahweh.
God tells us who He is and what He has done so that we can trust in Him and not in some false god.
He tells us He is the eternal creator who created everything. Rev. 4:11; “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”
He tells us He is the God of Israel; Psalm 72:18; Blessed be Yahweh God, the God of Israel, Who alone works wondrous deeds.
And He tells us He has been a husband to more than one wife. Jeremiah 31:31-32; “Behold, days are coming,” declares Yahweh, “when I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, but I was a husband to them,” declares Yahweh.
Question: Is the God in whom you trust the eternal creator who made all things?
Is He the God of Israel; the nation founded in polygamy?
Is the God you trust in the One who is a husband to more than one wife; to Israel and Judah?
Throughout the Bible we are told, even commanded, to trust in God and there is blessing for those trusting in Him.
For example, in Proverbs 3:5; Trust in Yahweh with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
And Jeremiah 17:7; Blessed is the man who trusts in Yahweh And whose trust is Yahweh.
God tells us who He is and what He has done so that we can trust in Him and not in some false god.
He tells us He is the eternal creator who created everything. Rev. 4:11; “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”
He tells us He is the God of Israel; Psalm 72:18; Blessed be Yahweh God, the God of Israel, Who alone works wondrous deeds.
And He tells us He has been a husband to more than one wife. Jeremiah 31:31-32; “Behold, days are coming,” declares Yahweh, “when I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, but I was a husband to them,” declares Yahweh.
Question: Is the God in whom you trust the eternal creator who made all things?
Is He the God of Israel; the nation founded in polygamy?
Is the God you trust in the One who is a husband to more than one wife; to Israel and Judah?
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Yes. Yes. Yes.
I think the point you need to get them to is really the point where they need to ask themselves if they will accept YHWH God for who He really is, or only the aspects of Him that they are comfortable with.
Will they instead trust in who they think God is before trusting in who He says that He is? Will they rely on their own understanding of the God they claim to serve before allowing God to shape and mold their understandings of Himself? Will they accept God for who He is even if they are uncomfortable with it?
That's been the battle with people throughout history.
Since I learnt about polygyny, that has become quite obvious; a lot of people only want to accept what they themselves like about God. They want a God to be like them. But that's nothing new; Psalm 50:21, You thought that I was altogether like you.
Oh that's a good one for that! And indeed, it's nothing new, but I think it's thought provoking. Such lines of questioning will show you where they are at as far as being stiff and stubborn or those who are honestly mislead.
For example, the question, "would you believe this if it were true?" Sounds rather silly of a question to us, but let's phrase it a bit differently then:
"Would you accept polygyny as valid if indeed that was what the Bible taught?"
Or,
"Would you see polygyny as acceptable (ie not a sin) if God sees it that way?"
This question can be phrased a variety of ways, but it really is profoundly provocative! It may seem silly, but if someone responds with "no", then you have a much more deep and serious issue to deal with. It may be that no amount of reasoning will change their mind because they have arbitrarily decided to hold their stance no matter what. I can honestly say that if God were against polygyny, I would go back to being against it as well -- I'm just so convinced of the opposite, and choose to side with God on the matter. If the person says "yes" then you may just have an honest person who has been decieved. At that point, you can deliver into why they believe what they do and/or expect to have a relatively better discussion on the matter than those who simply don't care what the truth may be.
I've actually had many a conversation about this topic that seemed to be going absolutely nowhere before I decided to pop this question -- only to thereafter find out that I was striving on the wrong issue! It's rather tough to change someone's own understanding when that's all that they lean on!
I can attest to this, my dad was discussing this with me and I asked him if the scriptures showed Polygyny as a valid form of marriage, would he be willing to come off of his monogamy only view. He said yes he would have to in order to follow God. This led to him searching the scriptures and even being willing to watch all of Brian Kelsons marriage series. Currently he sees absolutely nothing wrong with it, so praise God. I will add that he is not an active church goer because he says he likes fellowship with God and he can't have it as good at churches because they grieve the Holy Spirit. He already was on the right track.
Excellent and all praise to God! May he continue to read, learn and believe the truth.
Amen.
We don't have to convince everyone.
I want to apologize for derailing this thread. Thank you @frederick for bringing it back on topic. Great discussion though; perhaps one that can be moved to another thread.
No worries. This isn't the first thread to get derailed!
Was Gideon sexually immoral?
Did God change the definition of marriage, and then change it back again?
Did God change the definition of marriage, and then change it back again?
Thanks Daniel. What passages in the Bible would you direct a person to with those questions?
Was Gideon sexually immoral?
I Cor 6:9 - Sexually immoral people will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Hebrews 11:32 - Gideon and Samson are listed.
Hebrews 12:1 - Those listed are part of a great cloud of witnesses.
Judges 8:30 - Gideon had many wives.
Did God change the definition of marriage, and then change it back again?
Gen 4:19-23 - Lamech married two women, and Scripture refers to them as wives.
Gen 16:3 - Scripture refers to Hagar as Abraham's wife.
Gen 26:34 - Esau married two women.
Gen 28:9 - Esau marries yet another woman, and refers and says that she was in addition to the other two women, which are referred to as "wives".
Gen 29:28 - Rachel is given to Jacob and again she is referred to as his "wife". Verse 27 refers to the week prior, as Leah's "bridal week".
Gen 30:4 - Bilhah is referred to as a wife.
Matt 19:6 - The argument is that Jesus changed the very definition of "marriage" back to what it was in the beginning.
Isaiah 4:1 - A futuristic prohecy that one day seven women will ask to become the wife of one man.
So pastor, that man that you told us about in your sermon that you said that he admitted that he was "unfaithful" to his wife and that you said that you wish you could say that he went back to his wife, were you implying that he did NOT go back to his wife? Isn't it true that 9 out of 10 men that you confront about "the other woman", repent and go back to their wife? Oh! It's not? Why not? So if it is 9 out of 10 who end up leaving their wife, what are we doing wrong here?
Well that American soldier that you told us about, who impregnated that Korean woman, went back to his wife, didn't he? The one who abandoned the Korean woman, whose daughter ended up fending for herself on the streets until she was adopted. I'm sure that was an isolated incident. The other American GIs took care of their brood, did they not?
Do you not realize that forbidding marriage is a doctrine of demons?
Well that American soldier that you told us about, who impregnated that Korean woman, went back to his wife, didn't he? The one who abandoned the Korean woman, whose daughter ended up fending for herself on the streets until she was adopted. I'm sure that was an isolated incident. The other American GIs took care of their brood, did they not?
Do you not realize that forbidding marriage is a doctrine of demons?
This may be first new argument I’ve seen in years and it’s a good one. If polygyny is immoral then the New Testament contradicts itself. Nicely done!
Thanks! I have to give credit to one of the participants in the retreat I went to a few years ago, who said that what convinced him that polygyny was acceptable, was that the MO position basically had God changing his mind back and forth, to where He could not make up His mind, or something to that effect, but I can't remember who it was that said this.
The flaw in that argument is that David committed adultery, and Samson used prostitutes. If a man being in Hebrews 11 by definition is not sexually immoral, then adultery and prostitution are not immoral for the same reason that polygamy is argued to be not immoral.
The logic is flawed. All the men in Hebrews 11 are there because of their faith, not perfection. All were sinners saved by grace. The fact that so many were polygamous should certainly make anyone pause to think - polygamy is a common feature of these godly men. But it is not itself a logical proof of the acceptability of polygamy.