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Any Binitarians out there?

FollowingHim2 said:
There are some groups where I can't talk about PM. There are some groups where I can't talk about biblical slavery. There are some where I can't discuss vaccinations, or the feasts, or even home birthing. Because apparently you can make all those things anti-God. What I like about this forum is that I can discuss virtually anything on here and I know it's (most likely) going to be a decent conversation with well thought out responses from people that are truly following YHWH. We need to keep that here. There is nowhere else to go online. Find me another place that has the quality of people that BF does where we can discuss all the things we can discuss here. It doesn't exist.
BF stands out, and it needs to stand out. As Christians that's what we're supposed to do, and as a Christian forum that's what this should do too.
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I couldn't like this enough, and it is what I appreciate tremendously about this forum. We may have as many differences, as we have things in common, as far as our backgrounds and preferences go, but there is still more fellowship and support here then I believe I would find in a local congregation.
 
I think it is informative to look carefully at the Apostles' Creed (which, incidentally, has always been the official "statement of faith" of this ministry, mainly to avoid wasting time debating what the statement of faith should be so we can all get on to discussing marriage), and the later Nicene Creed, and compare the two.

Apostles' Creed
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.
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Read that very, very carefully, and ponder what it does and does not say about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It basically says that the Father created everything, that Jesus is his Son and our Lord, gives a summary of Jesus' life, and says the Holy Spirit exists. It says very little about the nature of each of the three. It doesn't say anything at all about the Holy Spirit. It does not even say that Jesus is God (just that He is God's Son). It sidesteps all these areas of doctrinal dispute, and rather gives a very clean summary of what everyone basically agrees upon (remembering "catholic" just means "universal"). Maybe the wording could be debated somewhere, no human document is ever perfect, but there is very little that is controversial here.

Now compare that to the later Nicene Creed.
We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried.
The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified.
He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come. Amen.
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This creed is basically the Apostles' Creed fleshed out with doctrine on the nature of the Son and the Holy Spirit. It adds that Jesus is "God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God" and "of the same essence as the Father". It calls the Holy Spirit "He" (ie defines the Spirit as a personal entity), and "the Lord" (a title reserved for Jesus in the Apostles' Creed). It states that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son", but is not just their power since the Spirit is called "He" and "with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified". The Nicene Creed basically outlines the doctrine of the Trinity that we have all been taught through the Catholic and Protestant churches.

The Apostles' Creed is the basic teaching of Christianity, the Gospel. The Nicene Creed adds interpretative doctrine that may or may not be correct, is almost impossible to understand (how can we understand what a statement like "of the same essence as the Father" even means, since we cannot understand what this "essence" is because it is beyond our comprehension?), and is not necessary for salvation.

I think the difference between these two creeds summarises the entire discussion here.

And then if you like, you can delve into the Athanasian Creed, which is far more explicit about the Trinity, is the origin of the phrase "one God in trinity and the trinity in unity", and asserts that you must believe in the Trinity to be saved. It is less universally accepted, the first two are accepted by Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant churches, while this creed is rejected by the Eastern Orthodox. However this creed fully explains the Trinity as we have been traditionally taught it. Most of the teaching in it is extrabiblical interpretation, that may or may not be correct - but the assertion that this is necessary for salvation is very problematic in my opinion.
Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.
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I like the creed listed in Hebrews 6:1,2. As best I can tell, these form the fundamental foundation of the Christian faith.
1) There is a correct understanding of who Christ is which will result in a particular response to Him per Hebrews chapters 1-5.
2) Salvation in Christ is based upon a foundation of repentance from dead works and a faith toward God
3) There is a right and a wrong way to understand and perform baptism
4) There is a right and a wrong way to understand and perform laying on of hands
5) There will be a resurrection of the dead
6) Your sentence at the judgement will be for eternity

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

I found it interesting that Athanasius refrained from mentioning the virgin birth, only that He was born of Mary.
 
@FollowingHim: Way to just cut to the chase! ;) And it's interesting to me the way you can see the confessions morphing from straight undisputable bible doctrine to statements of theology that have become "must believes" for the church. Sad, really....

@ZecAustin: Just to lay this out, I don't "reject the trinity". I have no opinion about any such trinity and find the whole conversation to be of very limited utility, except as an exercise, because it traffics in statements about things we don't know and can't know. (And of course now we have to think about what "know" means....). If someone "believes in" the trinity, though, I certainly have no problem with that, and would not reject that person or his creed. Meanwhile, I believe what the Apostles Creed says, and I defy any person to put any other burden on me re what I'm required to believe about God or his work. To me, that person has missed the clear teaching of about half the New Testament.

What I do reject whole-heartedly is the notion that any such doctrine of men can be used as a shibboleth to separate the true believers from the false. And if that gets me in trouble with someone they're going to have to take a number and get in line....
 
JustUs said:
The question is can you call on any form of God and be saved? Can the god of Islam save or can the Jesus of Islam save. Can the god of Mormonism save even though it is polytheistic? Believing in the God of the Bible is important. Yes believing in the trinity is a core Christian belief. Any belief that attacks the Trinity is a cult. The first thing all cults have in common is the attack on the trinity. Obviously if you want someone to be missed you must first pervert the belief of what God is. Justin Martyr defended the trinity as early as the 2nd century. He actually invented the word.
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Hi, @JustUs. Great to have you on here and glad to see you engaging.

It's hard to tell from your post if you are posting early or have made it all the way through the thread. I would agree with most of your statements, especially in regards to calling on any form of God to be saved, but not all as in the statement about cults. Though cults may reject the trinity, to reject the trinity doesn't necessarily make you a cult as is seen in the binitarian view. It would seem that they are remarkably similar in theology yet question this aspect of the Godhead. I, personally, think that this is one of the better challenges that I have seen on the board. One day, when I have a bit more time, this topic is definitely on my "to study" list.

I would consider myself to be of the persuasion that there is a trinity for reasons posted earlier, but have found the scriptural evidence to be challenge-able (not that the challenge is evidence, just that it justifiably demands clarity)

As you will no doubt see in many of my other posts, I am a huge fan of early writings by the 1st and 2nd century believers. If you could, would you provide a reference to Justin Martyrs comments. No hurry, but I think it would be beneficial to the thread (and would save me a lot of readingo_O)
 
JustUs said:
The question is can you call on any form of God and be saved? Can the god of Islam save or can the Jesus of Islam save. Can the god of Mormonism save even though it is polytheistic? Believing in the God of the Bible is important. Yes believing in the trinity is a core Christian belief. Any belief that attacks the Trinity is a cult. The first thing all cults have in common is the attack on the trinity. Obviously if you want someone to be missed you must first pervert the belief of what God is. Justin Martyr defended the trinity as early as the 2nd century. He actually invented the word.
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I would disagree. We have been taught that an attack on the trinity is cultic, but if one is truly honest, trinitarianism is not so explicit in scripture. It is definitely implicit, but not signed, sealed, and delivered.

Now, if you said an attack on the deity of Christ is cultic, I would agree. That is very explicit, unless you do language gymnastics (see your local Kingdom Hall).
 
JustUs said:
The question is can you call on any form of God and be saved? Can the god of Islam save or can the Jesus of Islam save. Can the god of Mormonism save even though it is polytheistic? Believing in the God of the Bible is important. Yes believing in the trinity is a core Christian belief. Any belief that attacks the Trinity is a cult. The first thing all cults have in common is the attack on the trinity. Obviously if you want someone to be missed you must first pervert the belief of what God is. Justin Martyr defended the trinity as early as the 2nd century. He actually invented the word.
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I would modify this statement just a little, the concepts that we've come to describe as the Trinity are always attacked by the "cultists". That word itself though is not scripture and while it might be useful shorthand we can't get hung up on the word itself. What most of these guys are calling binitarianism falls within the acceptable limits of what the Bible teaches. I agree that it is unproductive to try and change the word Trinity. Too many people equate the word trinity with the doctrine of the divinity of Christ and trying to batter through that is pointless when we're introducing so many other foreign concepts already.
 
Can anybody point me to a bible verse that says they'll know we are Christ's disciples by our dogma?...
 
andrew said:
Can anybody point me to a bible verse that says they'll know we are Christ's disciples by our dogma?...
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Not in those words, but the pastoral epistles do encourage us to study, show ones self to be approved, and rightly dividing the word of truth.

A pastor (shepherd/leader) can show himself approved in myriad ways, but one way is showing his fidelity (there's that Latin again) in how he divides matters of the word of truth.
 
Mojo said:
Not in those words
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Right, so while we can bicker about who's "rightly dividing the word" and appears to be qualified as, say, a teacher or elder (or a 'teaching elder' for you presbyterians), it's not a "who's a Christian, who's not" issue, right?
 
andrew said:
Right, so while we can bicker about who's "rightly dividing the word" and appears to be qualified as, say, a teacher or elder (or a 'teaching elder' for you presbyterians), it's not a "who's a Christian, who's not" issue, right?
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Definitely not.
Entry into that category is much less stringent:)
 
here are some indicators of who is not

1 John 2:23

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Rev. 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Deut. 25:16
For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto the Lord thy God.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Cor. 6:9-11
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
 
In keeping with the OP, I see that none of these verses includes a doctrine on the Holy Spirit. I think it proves that binitarianism is not necessarily cultic.

Definitions of a true believer include belief in the Son for sure. Binitarians wouldn't deny that.
 
I learned a new (to me) theological term the other day on the radio, which reminded me of this thread: Monothelitism. This Medieval belief held that Jesus had only a single will, despite having two natures (human and Godly). It was denounced as a heresy on the grounds that the will is part of one's nature, so that in order to be fully human and fully God, Jesus must have had both a human will, and God's will (hence verses like "not My will but Thine"). Jesus' having two wills falls in line with one of His purposes: to model perfect submission to the Father's will.

I believe in the Trinity; I believe in the Holy Spirit. But I'm not sure I've seen anything in the Bible that would indicate the Holy Spirit has a separate will that is constantly in submission to the Father, the way Christ has. Unlike Christ, the Holy Spirit does not have two distinct natures.
 
Shibboleth said:
I learned a new (to me) theological term the other day on the radio, which reminded me of this thread: Monothelitism. This Medieval belief held that Jesus had only a single will, despite having two natures (human and Godly). It was denounced as a heresy on the grounds that the will is part of one's nature, so that in order to be fully human and fully God, Jesus must have had both a human will, and God's will (hence verses like "not My will but Thine"). Jesus' having two wills falls in line with one of His purposes: to model perfect submission to the Father's will.

I believe in the Trinity; I believe in the Holy Spirit. But I'm not sure I've seen anything in the Bible that would indicate the Holy Spirit has a separate will that is constantly in submission to the Father, the way Christ has. Unlike Christ, the Holy Spirit does not have two distinct natures.
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The nature of Christ, his will, his deity, his humanity....all of it and some in between has been debated since Christ walked the earth. Good find. Who's radio show was it?
 
Shibboleth said:
I learned a new (to me) theological term the other day on the radio, which reminded me of this thread: Monothelitism. This Medieval belief held that Jesus had only a single will, despite having two natures (human and Godly). It was denounced as a heresy on the grounds that the will is part of one's nature, so that in order to be fully human and fully God, Jesus must have had both a human will, and God's will (hence verses like "not My will but Thine"). Jesus' having two wills falls in line with one of His purposes: to model perfect submission to the Father's will.

I believe in the Trinity; I believe in the Holy Spirit. But I'm not sure I've seen anything in the Bible that would indicate the Holy Spirit has a separate will that is constantly in submission to the Father, the way Christ has. Unlike Christ, the Holy Spirit does not have two distinct natures.
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