Any Binitarians out there?

Discussion in 'Biblical Issues Other Than Marriage & Family' started by Mojo, May 31, 2017.

  1. ZecAustin

    ZecAustin Esteemed Member Male

    There are so many things I like about that guy. It's shame he can't make the few last connections to come over to the light.
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  2. rustywest4

    rustywest4 Well-Known Member Male

    Woooaah dooooooood!!! :eek:

    @Shibboleth just went all mystical and my mind is blown right now! ... Surely a new theological term to me as well, and am now gonna jump in that rabbit hole to see what's in there for fun!
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  3. Mojo

    Mojo Esteemed Member Male

    I don't have a problem with all of us discussing our Christology, but this is veering slightly off topic from the OP, I think.

    My original post made an assumption that most here are trinitarian, but wanted to see views and input on binitarianism.

    Mods, do you think it would be best to start a new thread on "The nature(s) of Jesus" or something like that?

    @Verifyveritas76 @aineo ....What think Ye?

    @FollowingHim I know you're busy:)
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  4. aineo

    aineo Moderator Staff Member Male

    Done: Please find all posts related to The Nature of Jesus at the aforementioned link.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  5. Verifyveritas76

    Verifyveritas76 Moderator Staff Member Male

    Thanks @aineo, been pretty tied up and just stopping back in for a minute.

    I found a passage this morning that seemed to add to the original thought though it doesn't specifically equate the three as one. From other passages, I think that we agree that the Father and the Son are one, the question is about the role of the Spirit in the Godhead. In this passage, what struck me was that the Spirit seems to have inclusion and a role in the sending of the Messiah.

    Isaiah 48:16. Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
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  6. Mojo

    Mojo Esteemed Member Male

  7. andrew

    andrew Administrator Staff Member Male

    But does the Lord and His Spirit sending someone make his spirit a 'person'? If the Lord accomplishes something with his strong right arm, does that make his arm a person?
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  8. IshChayil

    IshChayil Esteemed Member Male

    ****** warning, kind of technical post about Hebrew and Greek grammar, skip if you hate this stuff******
    This is an interesting passage you produced here VV especially for binatarian+ evidences in the Old Testament.
    The Hebrew:
    קִרְב֧וּ אֵלַ֣י שִׁמְעוּ־זֹ֗את לֹ֤א מֵרֹאשׁ֙ בַּסֵּ֣תֶר דִּבַּ֔רְתִּי מֵעֵ֥ת הֱיֹותָ֖הּ שָׁ֣ם אָ֑נִי וְעַתָּ֗ה ‮אֲדֹנָ֧י יישְׁלָחַ֖נִי וְרוּחֹֽו‮׃ פ
    says the same as your English, but there is an interesting detail in the grammar here.
    The words in green are "Adonai Hashem" = "my L-rd, Hashem" and they, together with the word in red:
    v'rukho = and His spirit are the subject of the verb sh'lakhaniy = He sent me (if anyone is colorblind green is bold, red is italics and purple is underlined)
    So, while we have an apparent plural subject "my L-rd, Hashem ... and His spirit" we would expect the verb to be in the plural...
    so it *should* say: sh'lakhuniy = they sent me but instead we have the interesting *singular* form of the verb despite having a plural subject.

    It's also weird in biblical Hebrew syntax to split the subject around the verb like this. The usual syntax would be verb followed by subject, unless we want to emphasize the subject then we put the subject *before the verb*
    so there is actual emphasis here on "Adonai, Hashem" since it's placed before the verb, but then, very oddly the "and His spirit" comes
    *after* the verb so one part of the subject is on one side of the verb getting special emphasis (I would use italics in my translation to show this or bold) and the other part of the subject is in the normal position after the verb. It's odd enough that it makes me ask "why is it so odd"? and it definitely requires close attention. I would say it means 1 of 2 things:
    a) textual corruption - so we would look at other manuscript variants which do exist for this verse - I won't address these here as the Hebrew version listed is the Masoretic text. If anyone's interested let me know and I'll either PM or respond here with the variant readings.
    b) there is a special meaning being telegraphed here by the writer which a native speaker would have noticed by the strange language employed here.​
    If we go with b) The emphasis is placed on the most important part of the subject being Adonai, Hashem and the split part of the subject,
    and His spirit is taking a lesser role in the sending. Wonderful verse.
    Some may say "oh it's poetic and the, and His spirit part is the object and the object marker is missing because it's poetic" that could be, but I looked at the Septuagint text and it translates (1st part of verse not included for brevity's sake):
    καὶ νῦν κύριος ἀπέσταλκέν με καὶ τo πνεῦμα αὐτοῦ.
    [for those who care this is the Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft version, other versions have kurios twice, 1 time upper case]
    The LXX supports our rendering of the Hebrew. It even beautifully, you can see by the colors (remember the Hebrew is right to left direction) splits the subject also! The Greek is being painfully faithful to the Hebrew here. The 'and His spirit' is beautifully preserved after the verb in the Greek also (it's in the Nominative case so we know it's the subject, not just a poetic usage of a verbal object).

    Really nice find @Verifyveritas76 for complex unity of G-d demonstrated in the Old Testament
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
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  9. Verifyveritas76

    Verifyveritas76 Moderator Staff Member Male

    I didn't think about this till now but the verse also has bearing on the nature of Jesus thread also: from the beginning . . .there am I, and now the Lord God and his spirit hath sent me (the Redeemer). Isaiah 48:16
  10. IshChayil

    IshChayil Esteemed Member Male

    Never underestimate the power of culture
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  11. IshChayil

    IshChayil Esteemed Member Male

    Yeah that verse is really a goldmine for all kinds of thought.
    Maybe you should cross post over in that thread also, or link to your comment here and my grammar digging?
    I was also going to originally comment on how even though the holy spirit isn't mentioned so often in the Tanakh, your original comment about Messiah made me think of how the holy spirit is mentioned in psalms by David "ruach kodshekha al tishkakh mimeni" "do not remove your holy spirit from me", David of course you know is ancestor and type of the Messiah as well as literally being a "Mashiach" anointed one.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
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  12. Verifyveritas76

    Verifyveritas76 Moderator Staff Member Male

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  13. Mojo

    Mojo Esteemed Member Male

    I will have some good reading to do. Thanks.