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Beef with the TULIP. Indictments against bad theology.

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This thread is not representative of biblical families' views. I am sure that there are brothers and sisters who embraced TULIP theology and have also seen the truth of polygyny. I am grateful for them, and some have written great books on the topic. However, I wanted to create a space where I can collect indictments against Reformed theology, also known as Calvinism. This is my weak attempt to create some ripples among Calvinists and encourage them to examine themselves. After Martin Luther introduced his 95 theses against the Pope, he also reformed Catholicism. Today, Catholics can read the Bible in their own language, and sermons are preached in a language they can understand. I hope to play a small part in the conversation where indictments of Calvinism reform those who continue to hold this view as true. I hope my exposure of this theology will lead a person to continue to pursue God.

A few years ago, I was approached by a Calvinist evangelist, and I responded with a few explanations about why I am a Christian and that I believe in Christ my Lord for salvation. But instead of accepting me as a brother, I was interrogated to prove my faith through my extracurricular activities (amount of Bible reading, evangelism, etc.). On another occasion, after revealing that I accept polygyny, my Calvinist family implicated that I was abandoning my faith, accusing me of behaving like Esau, who exchanged his birthright for a bowl of soup, and that I had become a false teacher, inferring that I was condemned. These recurring confirmation biases have made me suspect that "by grace through faith alone" is just lip service for many Protestants. This explains why the majority of Christians from Reformed circles will deny fellowship to us (polygyny-accepting Christians). This is less likely to happen with non-Calvinists. I suspect this has been true in your experiences as well.

Apart from how we are being rejected by Calvinists, what is more important is how God is portrayed. When we examine how God rebuked Job's friends, it is clear that God cares about how He is portrayed. "My anger burns against you (Eliphaz) and your two friends because you have not spoken about Me rightly," (Job 42:7). Then, the friends had to rely on burnt sacrifices and Job's intercessory prayer to rescue them from receiving the deserved punishment: "So that I do not deal with you according to your folly, because you have not spoken about Me rightly, like My servant Job." (v. 8). I see how Calvinism distorts many aspects of God and our faith, and I hope this will be evaluated.
 
One of the reasons Calvinists have difficulty abandoning Reformed preunderstanding when reading Scripture is subject of sovereignty of God. Calvinism theology suggests that God is predetermined good and evil to every detail. According to R.C. Sproul that even if one molecule decides to be radical, God's sovereignty is jeopardized, as if God seizes to be sovereign.

I want to introduce better approach to understanding sovereignty of God as proposed by A. W. Tozer,

God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, “What doest thou?” Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.

Perhaps a homely illustration might help us to understand. An ocean liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool. Its destination has been determined by proper authorities. Nothing can change it. This is at least a faint picture of sovereignty.

On board the liner are several scores of passengers. These are not in chains, neither are their activities determined for them by decree. They are completely free to move about as they will. They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; but all the while the great liner is carrying them steadily onward toward a predetermined port.

Both freedom and sovereignty are present here and they do not contradict each other. So it is, I believe, with man’s freedom and the sovereignty of God. The mighty liner of God’s sovereign design keeps its steady course over the sea of history. God moves undisturbed and unhindered toward the fulfilment of those eternal purposes which He purposed in Christ Jesus before the world began. We do not know all that is included in those purposes, but enough has been disclosed to furnish us with a broad outline of things to come and to give us good hope and firm assurance of future well-being. ( From A. W. Tozer, "The Sovereignty of God" Chapter 22. Knowledge Of The Holy)

For illustration purposes I am attaching a video to prove sovereignty of God as proposed by a Calvinist.
Specifically on minute 5:50 viral segment starts.

 
Calvinism introduces people to God, with character that people later on end up rejecting. This explains many deconstruction trends in our times (people abandoning faith after being devoted Christians).
 
There is no assurance of salvation in Calvinism. Calvinism creates standard which God did not create. Calvinism version of grace is faith plus your good intentions, good behavior. Even Paul Washer's wife was made to doubt her own salvation. The scripture tells us that we can know that we are saved.
 
Calvinism is blaspheme against goodness of God.
In this video, debater exposes God according to Calvinism as very cruel, who could predestine someone to temporary believe in God only to reject Him half way for purpose of condemning a person later.
 
Calvinists may use the word gospel a lot but they do not know how to preach it. In fact, limited atonement doctrine would make it difficult for a Christian to say to a nonbeliever that God loves them, or in the same way it is described in John 3:16.
 
In spite of bad theology in various forms of Christianity, God saves people. In spite of bad theology in Catholicism or Eastern Orthodox or Calvinist denominations, God is still at work and people get saved. It is my understanding that at particular time in history among Particular Baptists it was forbidden to proselytize. I am glad that Reformed Christians fit in among their doctrines the need to share Christ.

I hope this would not be said about us, "for the name of God because of you is evil spoken of among the nations,"

 
Sounds like another religion that tries to hold its grip on you.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a path before each person that seems right, but it ends in death.

Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

Every man needs to put to heart what Paul wrote -- "Let every man be a liar, but let God be true" "Work out your own Salvation with great fear and trembling." We don't need churches to teach us the word. We already have the Word. The Creator has given us a brain. We can read. We can "choose" to believe the words we read, or we can close our ears to the truth to our own detriment. The majority choose the latter.

It is the Father in Heaven. Then his Son. Then the husband. Then under the husband are his wives and children. Husbands are to nourish their household with the word of truth - washing his family clean and also providing. The Scripture doesn't say the "Catholic" or "Protestant" or "Orthodox" church washes his family clean. No - the husband - who is created in the image of the Almighty.
 
Sounds like another religion that tries to hold its grip on you.
I am Christian.
We don't need churches to teach us the word. We already have the Word. The Creator has given us a brain. We can read. We can "choose" to believe the words we read, or we can close our ears to the truth to our own detriment.
What then is it, brethren? whenever ye may come together, each of you hath a psalm, hath a teaching, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation? let all things be for building up; 1 Corinthians 14:26)
 
I am Christian.

What then is it, brethren? whenever ye may come together, each of you hath a psalm, hath a teaching, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation? let all things be for building up; 1 Corinthians 14:26)
There are Jews that say they are Jews, but they are of the synagogue of Satan. (Revelation 3:9)

They are Christians that say they are Christians, but are actually children of the Devil. (1 John 3:10)

It's a very narrow path that very few enter. (Matthew 7:13).

When you come to the realization - that Jesus (Yahushua) is literally the Word made flesh; then you see those that claim to love him do nothing but violence to the Word (Holy Scriptures) - I come to the conclusion - they are not much different than the pharisees that sent him to his death. The Pharisees also claimed to know and love God. They also were well liked, and seemed righteous on the outside.

Take for example the Calvinist you had an discussion with. He obviously read the Scriptures if he knew about Esau. Yet, he casted you down because of the truth of biblical polygyny. Was it really you he was casting down, or was he casting down the Word of God made flesh - his Savior he claims to love?

Once again - "Very narrow path that few enter." Lord, Lord (who calls him Lord btw?), didn't we cast out demons in your name? He replies back, "I NEVER KNEW YOU."
 
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Okay, I’m not Calvinist and don’t have a lot of respect for the base assumption of Calvinism, but I don’t think we can label them blasphemers. They have some wrong theology, that’s not something to damn someone over.
 
In spite of bad theology in Catholicism or Eastern Orthodox or Calvinist denominations, God is still at work and people get saved.
I believe that this is a true statement...

There is a element of coming closer and closer to God that takes time. Within false theology, there are people who are being drawn closer and closer to God. If they are adopting the knowledge of the truth into their lives as it is revealed to them, I believe that they will be measured by their knowledge and adherence to that knowledge at the end of their life as opposed to the full knowledge of truth as God himself possesses it.

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.
Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts,
ye double minded.

I would be worried for those that do not seek to gain knowledge of God's word though as it is how we come to know him. If we do not seek to know him, how can we claim to love him and have a relationship with him?
 
Okay, I’m not Calvinist and don’t have a lot of respect for the base assumption of Calvinism, but I don’t think we can label them blasphemers. They have some wrong theology, that’s not something to damn someone over.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I am not sure that I am damning someone for misrepresenting goodness of God. But I may want to study what constitutes a blasphemy. I said blasphemous to character of God.


I am thinking of unfaithful servant who thought of his master (our Lord) as "a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed." (Matthew 25:24). Yet the servant was still accountable to God.

Based on this illustration I am deriving that even if a person improperly characterizes their God, that person will be accountable toGod they perceived. The servant still accountable to God.
 
Is this something that can be measured? Would you be willing to claim someone is not saved if that person does not read Scripture?
Nope. I leave it to God. I can neither save someone or damn them to eternal destruction...
What I think matters very little in other peoples salvation. I would WARN them. But it is not up to me in the end... Thank God for that!!!
 
I find such major accusations against entire denominations rather unhelpful to the work of the Kingdom. Sure, we should carefully discuss in detail certain aspects of theology in order to understand them better ourselves. But to go so far as to post a whole string of videos tearing apart a denomination from every angle, even comparing them to Muslims, is just completely unproductive.

Often if you just look at something from the opposite angle, you can see it quite differently. For instance, the idea of predestination can be a great encouragement to evangelism. There isn't just a world of unsaved people who you have to persuade to come to God (a very daunting task), but a world full of people who have already been chosen by God and who WILL come to Him, with you just being a tool that you can be assured He will use to bring some of them to Him. Whether predestination seems emotionally good or bad therefore depends entirely on whether, when you look at the world, you see the people who will come to God or the ones who will not. If you look at the ones who will come to him, you see a pile of unworthy people who God has chosen to love even though they don't deserve it, and are blown away by His grace. I'm not saying that perspective is correct. I'm just saying it's not horrible. It's all a matter of perspective. I'm simply saying it's not bad enough to get worked up about.

In fact, the message of Calvinism will attract some people who are blown away by the fact that God chose them, despite how horrible they know they are, and who come to Him specifically because of this perspective, when no other would have drawn them. While other people would find this repulsive (as you do), but will be drawn to God through Orthodoxy, or Pentecostalism, Hebrew Roots, Catholicism, Baptist theology... Each has a place, even though they're all wrong about some things. We are not intended to be monolithic, we are a Body, made up of different parts, each of which actually has a role to play in the Kingdom. The eye cannot say to the ear "I don't need you".

Step back and reconsider.

As Christians we spend far too much time on civil war against each other, and far too little time teaming up with each other to promote the basic good news of the Kingdom to the world.

Who cares if the Calvinists have a few things wrong? What really matters is that the atheists and Muslims and Hindus have so much more wrong.

I really like the youtuber "Redeemed Zoomer". He's a young Presbyterian man who has put a lot of effort into such interdenominational debates for a long time. And then he saw where his focus was wrong, and put out this video:
 
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I am not sure that I am damning someone for misrepresenting goodness of God. But I may want to study what constitutes a blasphemy. I said blasphemous to character of God.


I am thinking of unfaithful servant who thought of his master (our Lord) as "a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed." (Matthew 25:24). Yet the servant was still accountable to God.

Based on this illustration I am deriving that even if a person improperly characterizes their God, that person will be accountable toGod they perceived. The servant still accountable to God.
We all mischaracterize God on some level. We aren’t capable of comprehending anything about Him.
 

Revelation 20:12​

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

The two greatest commandments - Love the Father in Heaven with all your heart, soul, and strength. And then love your neighbor like yourself.

The Bible is an instruction book on how to fulfill those two commandments through faith in his Son.

Then comes judgment. May the love of the Father in Heaven and the grace of the Master Yahushua the Messiah (Jesus Christ) be with us all; and may the Holy Spirit lead us to all truth.
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