Beef with the TULIP. Indictments against bad theology.

[frederick]

I find such major accusations against entire denominations rather unhelpful to the work of the Kingdom.

Thank you for your input Samuel. You have a way of wording things that I seriously lack, but you communicate my thoughts very well.

We as brethren in Christ are warned in James 4:11-12, Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

If half the effort was put into proclaiming the gospel that is put into tearing one another down, the world would have been fully evangelised by now! Gentlemen, find something more productive for the sake of the Kingdom than speaking badly of the brethren. Shalom

 

[Transformator Reformator]

We aren’t capable of comprehending anything about Him.

We are able to comprehend what God chooses to reveal about Himself.

"in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the world. 3 He is the brightness of His glory, the express image of Himself, and upholds all things by the word of His power." (Hebrews 1:2-3)

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father. So how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? " (John 14:9) Our Lord expected us to comprehend God.

But to go so far as to post a whole string of videos tearing apart a denomination from every angle, even comparing them to Muslims, is just completely unproductive.

I could say to a person that "your breath stinks" and still love that person and appreciate their contributions . If you watched the video you would see that resemblance between Islam and Calvinism is striking.

1 John 4:20, "If a man say, “I love God,” and hateth his brother, he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"

John 8: 40- 44. "If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 ;But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You are doing the works of your father.” . . . You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him."

It appears desire to murder is not of God.

Now tell me how a person who supposedly regenerate by the Holy Spirit desires death of someone who does not believe same things about baptism? The Scripture teaches me to be suspicious of such teachers. This zeal to kill is not motivated by the Holy Spirit, and as you know Lutherans, Calvinists, basically whoever held to Reformed understanding of salvation did. People who did not do that, it was anabaptists. Concept of separation of church and state in U.S. came from interaction between Baptist minster and Thomas Jefferson, because Baptist minister was concerned about persecution/discrimination by Calvinist denominations.

 

[FollowingHim]

So, you are rejecting a set of theological views, because certain persons who have held those views have thought they should kill heretics who disagreed?
Do you apply this logic consistently to all denominations?
Would it not be more logical to simply reject those certain persons?

 

[MeganC]

For those who are reading this topic and like myself had never before heard of Calvinism being referred to as a TULIP...

TULIP: 5-Point Calvinism Explained

The five points of Calvinism can be explained using the acronym TULIP. Understand the set of religious principles behind John Calvin's theology.

www.learnreligions.com

 

[MeganC]

So, you are rejecting a set of theological views, because certain persons who have held those views have thought they should kill heretics who disagreed?
Do you apply this logic consistently to all denominations?
Would it not be more logical to simply reject those certain persons?

Old saying: The difference between a religion and a cult is how they treat you when you try to leave.

 

[Transformator Reformator]

Often if you just look at something from the opposite angle, you can see it quite differently. For instance, the idea of predestination can be a great encouragement to evangelism. There isn't just a world of unsaved people who you have to persuade to come to God (a very daunting task), but a world full of people who have already been chosen by God and who WILL come to Him, with you just being a tool that you can be assured He will use to bring some of them to Him.

For some it may be comforting. and for some it gives permission to be a jerk with absence of making heavenly appeal (I am thinking of Westboro Baptist church method

We are not intended to be monolithic, we are a Body, made up of different parts, each of which actually has a role to play in the Kingdom. The eye cannot say to the ear "I don't need you".

Amen.

The parable of the wheat and the tares ( Matthew 13:24-30) shows the light how to respond. Seems like Calvinists missed that memo.

Who cares if the Calvinists have a few things wrong?

I care. But you do not have have to care about this if you do not see issue with bad theology. This is why I am not grieving that traditional denominations are dwindling. I am excited at what God is doing. With each passing century the Iklesia gets more beautiful. Traditions of men get chipped away more and more. "having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will; to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."

He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

the dead who were not written in the book of life will be judged according to their deeds. Amen.

find something more productive for the sake of the Kingdom

I also hear this from those who want me to stop talking about polygyny and patriarchy.

proclaiming the gospel

Could you give me a sample of this proclamation. Could you come to any random person and tell them that God loves them, and that He died for His sins? (Try to communicate this with Limited Atonement in mind). To be true TULIP, a person would be saying, "God may be loves you, and He may have send His Son for this reason". Now tell me how is this the gospel?

find something more productive for the sake of the Kingdom than speaking badly of the brethren.

I believe I am doing something productive for the Kingdom, perhaps, there were people who have surrounded themselves by monolithic faith and have never been challenged.

We as brethren in Christ are warned in James 4:11-12, Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

I must admit this is difficult verse to reconcile with what I am doing. I will continue reflecting on this. Thank you. I will have to figure out meaning of speaking evil about another. I have to reconcile it with "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. (Ephesians 5:11). You certainly gave me homework. Thank you.

 

[Bartato]

@Transformator Reformator

I understand that certain Calvinists are proud intolerant legalistic jerks. Some are unregenerate. Others are immature.

They aren't the only ones.

There is plenty of nonsense to be found in the other Christian traditions as well.

Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Wesleyans, Anabaptists, Messianics, and Pentecostals, all regularly throw people under the bus for disagreement (and especially for disagreement on polygamy and patriarchy).

Nonetheless, I generally hold what would be considered a largely Reformed or Calvinistic understanding of the Christian faith.

I much prefer to refer to myself as a simple Christian, or believer in, bondslave and follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is Lord. He Himself is my only Hope in life and in death. He has bought me with His blood. He is my Propitiation, and my Righteousness. I belong to Him, body and soul. I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

I believe there are many true saints of God to be found in other Christian traditions.

My mother who passed away in April was absolutely no Calvinist, but her deepest hope and confidence was in Jesus Christ. I am quite certain that she is with Him today.

To me, it seems like "Calvinism" boils down to salvation by God's Grace alone, through Christ alone, by His Righteousness alone, as revealed through Scripture alone, and that all the Glory is to God alone.

While I acknowledge the general truthfulness of TULIP, I prefer RC Sproul's RULEP to the traditional TULIP.

More importantly, I enthusiastically delight in, and fully embrace the Five Solas.

I was raised in the Wesleyan-Arminian tradition, and came to the Reformed view as an adult around age 30. I'm now 51, so I've had a fair bit of experience in both worlds.

For me, it was all about grace. Jesus saves.

I did choose Christ, and continue to choose Him, but only do so because God opened my eyes to see the Light of the World. He will keep me to the end.

Salvation is the gift of God, and no one can boast.

 

[Transformator Reformator]

So, you are rejecting a set of theological views, because certain persons who have held those views have thought they should kill heretics who disagreed?
Do you apply this logic consistently to all denominations?
Would it not be more logical to simply reject those certain persons?

Honestly, this has become a litmus test of who have gotten the gospel correctly. If initial response desire to murder for different beliefs, I think that person did not properly understand the good news aka the gospel.

I have been going to Free Will Baptist Church (non Calvinist congregation) and they are not denying me fellowship, as opposed to my mother who cites Old Testament commandment regarding rebellious son after my views on polygyny have been revealed, I become suspicious of her understanding of the gospel, and she is Reformed.

 

[Transformator Reformator]

They aren't the only ones.

Understood, but I never had a desire to murder someone for their false beliefs.

 

[FollowingHim]

I believe I am doing something productive for the Kingdom, perhaps, there were people who have surrounded themselves by monolithic faith and have never been challenged.

Do you have any reason to believe that people on this forum, who you are writing to at present, have "surrounded themselves by monolithic faith" in Calvinism "and have never been challenged"? Or is there another audience that you feel have this problem and actually need to hear this message? I think you're preaching to the wrong audience, in this specific case.

 

[Transformator Reformator]

@Transformator Reformator

I understand that certain Calvinists are proud intolerant legalistic jerks. Some are unregenerate. Others are immature.

They aren't the only ones.

There is plenty of nonsense to be found in the other Christian traditions as well.

Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Wesleyans, Anabaptists, Messianics, and Pentecostals, all regularly throw people under the bus for disagreement (and especially for disagreement on polygamy and patriarchy).

Nonetheless, I generally hold what would be considered a largely Reformed or Calvinistic understanding of the Christian faith.

I much prefer to refer to myself as a simple Christian, or believer in, bondslave and follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is Lord. He Himself is my only Hope in life and in death. He has bought me with His blood. He is my Propitiation, and my Righteousness. I belong to Him, body and soul. I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

I believe there are many true saints of God to be found in other Christian traditions.

My mother who passed away in April was absolutely no Calvinist, but her deepest hope and confidence was in Jesus Christ. I am quite certain that she is with Him today.

To me, it seems like "Calvinism" boils down to salvation by God's Grace alone, through Christ alone, by His Righteousness alone, as revealed through Scripture alone, and that all the Glory is to God alone.

While I acknowledge the general truthfulness of TULIP, I prefer RC Sproul's RULEP to the traditional TULIP.

More importantly, I enthusiastically delight in, and fully embrace the Five Solas.

I was raised in the Wesleyan-Arminian tradition, and came to the Reformed view as an adult around age 30. I'm now 51, so I've had a fair bit of experience in both worlds.

For me, it was all about grace. Jesus saves.

I did choose Christ, and continue to choose Him, but only do so because God opened my eyes to see the Light of the World. He will keep me to the end.

Salvation is the gift of God, and no one can boast.

The closest category of belief that aligns with my understanding is Provisionism with caveat that a person can loose their salvation if their trust in Christ's accomplished work seizes.

Since, you admitted that you hold Reformed beliefs, I would like to know what do you believe about babies that were not predestined. Do the babies bear the guilt of Adam's sins and therefore will be in the lake of fire?

​

 

[FollowingHim]

I must admit this is difficult verse to reconcile with what I am doing. I will continue reflecting on this. Thank you. I will have to figure out meaning of speaking evil about another. I have to reconcile it with "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. (Ephesians 5:11). You certainly gave me homework. Thank you.

The answer to that is the difference between approaching someone who is in error and correcting them personally (which is a good thing to do), and talking about people behind their backs (which is "speaking evil of a brother and judging a brother").

You are confusing the two. You are taking your real responsibility to correct people who are in error, and thinking it is justification to speak evil about people to others.

Buy your Calvinist friend (whoever he is) a cup of coffee, and discuss it with him directly.

 

[Transformator Reformator]

Do you have any reason to believe that people on this forum, who you are writing to at present, have "surrounded themselves by monolithic faith" in Calvinism "and have never been challenged"? Or is there another audience that you feel have this problem and actually need to hear this message? I think you're preaching to the wrong audience, in this specific case.

You are right.

 

[Bartato]

Honestly, this has become a litmus test of who have gotten the gospel correctly. If initial response desire to murder for different beliefs, I think that person did not properly understand the good news aka the gospel.

I have been going to Free Will Baptist Church (non Calvinist congregation) and they are not denying me fellowship, as opposed to my mother who cites Old Testament commandment regarding rebellious son after my views on polygyny have been revealed, I become suspicious of her understanding of the gospel, and she is Reformed.

I am very sorry to hear that your relationship with your mother and other family members has become estranged.

I hope she will come to understand that God views polygamy as legitimate marriage.

More importantly, if she lacks true saving faith in Christ, I hope she comes to know Him.

My non-Calvinist parents (and brother, and sister) have always been very loving and accepting of me, in spite of my Reformed theology, and even the fact that I recognize the legitimacy of polygyny.

FWIW, I'm a member in good standing of a "Calvinistic" Southern Baptist church. My pastors know that I believe the Bible treats polygamy as legitimate. They disagree, but love me, and accept me as a brother.

 

[FollowingHim]

I would like to know what do you believe about babies that were not predestined. Do the babies bear the guilt of Adam's sins and therefore will be in the lake of fire?

Back up a step. What do you believe about babies?

If salvation is a matter entirely of free will, so we have to choose to be saved, and no babies have yet had the opportunity to choose salvation, would not all babies bear the guilt of Adam's sin and go to the lake of fire?

On the other hand, if salvation is by baptism, would not all babies who die pre-baptism bear the guilt of Adam's sin and go to the lake of fire?

While if salvation is by predestination, and God knows that baby is going to die before having a chance to either choose Him or be baptised, would not God predestine them to whatever destiny He believed was just? Maybe He chooses to save all such babies, or none of them (we can't know), all we know is that He is just. But on average this would mean a whole lot more babies being saved than either of the other options.

I honestly don't know the answer here, as the Bible does not give one clearly, but I'm struggling to see why you find the last option worse than the first two.

 

[Transformator Reformator]

Back up a step. What do you believe about babies?

If salvation is a matter entirely of free will, so we have to choose to be saved, and no babies have yet had the opportunity to choose salvation, would not all babies bear the guilt of Adam's sin and go to the lake of fire?

On the other hand, if salvation is by baptism, would not all babies who die pre-baptism bear the guilt of Adam's sin and go to the lake of fire?

While if salvation is by predestination, and God knows that baby is going to die before having a chance to either choose Him or be baptised, would not God predestine them to whatever destiny He believed was just? Maybe He chooses to save all such babies, or none of them (we can't know), all we know is that He is just. But on average this would mean a whole lot more babies being saved than either of the other options.

I honestly don't know the answer here, as the Bible does not give one clearly, but I'm struggling to see why you find the last option worse than the first two.

Remember I am not a Calvinist. I reject T 'total depravity'. I believe all babies are saved. Babies inherit ability to sin but not the guilt of Adam.

 

[Bartato]

Remember I am not a Calvinist. I reject T 'total depravity'. I believe all babies are saved.

Can the righteousness of the second Adam be imputed and the sin of the first Adam not be? They seem to logically go together

I tend to assume that babies that die are saved by Christ, but won't pretend that I can prove it from the Biblical text.

In the end, they are in Jesus hands. He is the Judge, and I trust Him to do what is best.

 

[Transformator Reformator]

Can the righteousness of the second Adam be imputed and the sin of the first Adam not be?

It can. And it happens.

The next video is useful for first five minutes. I am glad to hear your position is little bit different.

 

[The Revolting Man]

We are able to comprehend what God chooses to reveal about Himself.

"in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the world. 3 He is the brightness of His glory, the express image of Himself, and upholds all things by the word of His power." (Hebrews 1:2-3)

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father. So how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? " (John 14:9) Our Lord expected us to comprehend God.

I could say to a person that "your breath stinks" and still love that person and appreciate their contributions . If you watched the video you would see that resemblance between Islam and Calvinism is striking.

1 John 4:20, "If a man say, “I love God,” and hateth his brother, he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"

John 8: 40- 44. "If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 ;But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You are doing the works of your father.” . . . You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him."

It appears desire to murder is not of God.

Now tell me how a person who supposedly regenerate by the Holy Spirit desires death of someone who does not believe same things about baptism? The Scripture teaches me to be suspicious of such teachers. This zeal to kill is not motivated by the Holy Spirit, and as you know Lutherans, Calvinists, basically whoever held to Reformed understanding of salvation did. People who did not do that, it was anabaptists. Concept of separation of church and state in U.S. came from interaction between Baptist minster and Thomas Jefferson, because Baptist minister was concerned about persecution/discrimination by Calvinist denominations.

We don’t understand the depth or completeness of Him though, there’s no facet of the eternal that we truly can.

 

[Transformator Reformator]

When people come across Reformed theology I hope they will try exhaustively study the Bible to disprove it, and if they still left with conclusion that Calvinism is true, kudos to them. From that comes sense of pride (or courage) that one can accept difficult things and believe those things as they are. I, however, convinced it is abhorrent and worth wrestling with.