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Beef with the TULIP. Indictments against bad theology.

This has been debated in other threads. I see no value in rehashing it all again. Have fun.
The Christians in the 1500’s knew a thing or two. I just checked the Geneva notes for revelation 13:3 - and they state that Nero the Emperor was the beast (anti Christ).

I just checked their notes regarding Ezekiel 37 and 38 - and they state that with the re gathering of Israel and Judah - the two great houses - it would be under Christ and his kingdom. So they agree that Ezekiel 37 and 38 points to a future unfulfilled prophecy for the church.
 
On the other hand, if God's moral judgement differs from ours so that our 'black' may be His 'white', we can mean nothing by calling Him good; for to say 'God is good', while asserting that His goodness is wholly other than ours, is really only to say 'God is we know not what'. And an utterly unknown quality in God cannot give us moral grounds for loving or obeying Him. If He is not (in our sense) 'good' we shall obey, if at all, only through fear - and should be equally ready to obey omnipotent Fiend. The doctrine of Total Depravity - when the consequence is drawn that, since we are totally depraved, our idea of good is worth simply nothing - may thus turn Christianity into a form of devil-worship. -C.S. Lewis. (The Problem of Pain, pp. 28)
 
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I believe perseverance of the faith equals eternal security.

I may differ from John Wesley on certain nuances, however good quote to think about.

John Wesley once said: Perseverance of the Saints, Eternal Security?


"Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God’s book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever “receive the grace of God in vain”; “bury his talents”; “neglect such great salvation”; trifle away “a day of grace”; “look back” after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can “grieve the Spirit” till He is “quenched,” and strives no more, nor “deny the Lord that bought them”; nor “bring upon themselves swift destruction.” Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. John 17:12; that if one falls, he never stood. Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6; if one was ever “cast forth,” he was never in, and “if one ever withered,” he was never green. John 15:1-6; and that “if any man draws back,” it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. Heb. 10:38,39; that if one ever “falls away into spiritual darkness,” he was never enlightened. Heb 6:4-6; that if you “again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,” it shows that you never escaped. 2 Pet 2:20; that if you “put salvation away” you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!"


— From John Wesley’s sermon “Serious Thoughts Upon the Perseverance of the Saints” (1754).


He also wrote:


"in the worst and bloodiest idolatry that ever defiled the earth, there is nothing so horrid, so monstrous, so impious as this (i.e., Calvinism)"
 
So, you are rejecting a set of theological views, because certain persons who have held those views have thought they should kill heretics who disagreed?
Do you apply this logic consistently to all denominations?
Would it not be more logical to simply reject those certain persons?
I am not sure if I answered your questions. Answer to your first question: I think desire to kill those deemed to be heretics is not of God, so if someone does that, I would be suspicious, not necessary dismiss information on based on killing alone. It is symptom of what might be happening.

Answer to third question: It would be logical to simply reject those certain persons, but if common denominator has been beliefs that resulted in apathy and murder, I will start seeing a pattern, and then a link.

I am not sure if this is a rule, not sure if this appropriate application of the following Bible reference. Psalm 115:5-8. It seems that worshippers take on characteristics of a god they worship.

They have mouths, but they cannot speak;
eyes, but they cannot see;
6 they have ears, but they cannot hear;
noses, but they cannot smell;
7 they have hands, but they cannot feel;
feet, but they cannot walk;
neither can they speak with their throat.
8 Those who make them are like them;
so is everyone who trusts in them.


And 1 John 4:7-8:
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God, and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8. Anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
 
I provided incomplete answer. Adding it here: those who were written in the book of life, their deeds will be judged for a reward not for a punishment.
And those who are written in His book of life are saved by grace, through faith, and are kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:5). Praise God for His work in delivering sinners from His punishment through His work in Jesus Christ. It's all about what He has done giving resurrection life to those who were dead in trespasses and sins. Hallelujah.
 
And those who are written in His book of life are saved by grace, through faith, and are kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:5). Praise God for His work in delivering sinners from His punishment through His work in Jesus Christ. It's all about what He has done giving resurrection life to those who were dead in trespasses and sins. Hallelujah.
Amen. Hallelujah!
 
I am glad I am not living in this type of society proposed by John Calvin. It is not enough to be a heretic to be killed, you have to be ok to kill them as well.
"Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death, knowingly and willingly incur their guilt. It is not human authority that speaks, it is God who speaks and prescribes a perpetual rule for His Church.

John Calvin followed Augustine’s biblical justification for burning heretics. Augustine excused extreme measures through his interpretation of Jesus’ Great Banquet parable in Luke 14:16-24. When the master could not fill up his banquet in the parable, he commanded his servants in Luke 14:23 “to compel people to come so that my house will be filled.” Augustine and Calvin believed burning heretics would “compel” more people to enter their house of God. Interpreting “compulsion” as a license to kill without consideration for Jesus’ other teaching to “love your enemies” is a major hermeneutical error. Any part of Jesus’ teaching should be interpreted in light of the whole. (https://www.reenactingtheway.com/bl...led-and-bad-bible-interpretation-justified-it)

"But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" (Matthew 6:23)
 
I believe perseverance of the faith equals eternal security.

I may differ from John Wesley on certain nuances, however good quote to think about.

John Wesley once said: Perseverance of the Saints, Eternal Security?


"Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God’s book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever “receive the grace of God in vain”; “bury his talents”; “neglect such great salvation”; trifle away “a day of grace”; “look back” after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can “grieve the Spirit” till He is “quenched,” and strives no more, nor “deny the Lord that bought them”; nor “bring upon themselves swift destruction.” Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. John 17:12; that if one falls, he never stood. Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6; if one was ever “cast forth,” he was never in, and “if one ever withered,” he was never green. John 15:1-6; and that “if any man draws back,” it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. Heb. 10:38,39; that if one ever “falls away into spiritual darkness,” he was never enlightened. Heb 6:4-6; that if you “again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,” it shows that you never escaped. 2 Pet 2:20; that if you “put salvation away” you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!"


— From John Wesley’s sermon “Serious Thoughts Upon the Perseverance of the Saints” (1754).


He also wrote:


"in the worst and bloodiest idolatry that ever defiled the earth, there is nothing so horrid, so monstrous, so impious as this (i.e., Calvinism)"
That’s about as good of a salvo as I’ve ever read.
 
Balthasar Hubmaier (1480-1528).



In the Gospel of John, God the Son said that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him, all that the Father gives Him will come to Him, and that He will lose none that the Father gives Him.

Are you opposing Calvin or Jesus?
Feel free to do the first, but not the second.
 
In the Gospel of John, God the Son said that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him, all that the Father gives Him will come to Him, and that He will lose none that the Father gives Him.

Are you opposing Calvin or Jesus?
Feel free to do the first, but not the second.
I am vehemently oppose Calvin. And every Christian should do as well for number of reasons as mentioned in this thread. I would hate to oppose Jesus.
If I held a religion that would require me to hate my parents, all I had to do is quote Luke 14:26, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. But it is obvious, this is wrong hermeneutical approach. In the same way passages from John 6:35-40, 64-65 (with apparent presence of predestination, irresistible grace, and eternal security) cannot void other passages that state differently. For example, in John 12: 32, Jesus says And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. If your rebuttal will be, well, it was Jesus doing the drawing not the Father, then I will concede and move to the next point. It would be mean Jesus' intention and Father's intention diverge. I do not think it is so. All of us who are saved have been drawn by God. But sometimes people do not reciprocate to God even when drawn, as shown by Matthew 23:37, O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

John 17:12, Our Savior prays about apostles While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Right away we see that by Father giving does not guarantee that nothing will be lost.

From John 15:6, If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. From here we are learning that there is a possibility for a branch to be part of the vine but not getting nutrients from the vine resulting in being cast away. Therefore eternal security is conditional on remaining in Christ. And here is another passage that confirms that salvation is conditional on remaining in Him, 1 John 2:24, "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."

Revelation 3:16 contains threat So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Looking at John 6:35-40, 64-65 I accept that if the Father would not have reached out to me, I would not be able to come to Him. And as far it depends on the Father, He will not lose me, but I can lose Him by me deciding to do so. It will be my choice by failing to abide in Him. He will not violate my choice. Hebrews 10:38, Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. It is possible to read and understand John 6:35-40, 64-65 without Calvinist goggles.
 
There’s an excellent book I read years ago that was so good at ripping the TULIP to shreds that I read it three times back to back! …

“What Love Is This? (Calvinism’s misrepresentation of God)” by Dave Hunt
 
The main problem I can see with any man is that we take the words in Scripture and try to put the definition of the words into today's culture and define them by that as well. This is where confusion and contradiction come from and why people get the wrong doctrine and directives from Scripture. You have to diagram Scripture correctly the same way one has to a diagram a sentence or you get misinterpretation of what is actually being said. Cherry picking Scripture to fit what we want it to say is common practice in everyday life and even seen Pastor's do it too in their sermons and I have literally sat in Church and read the verse that a Pastor was preaching on and said out loud that is not what that is saying for example, recently heard a message on Hagar and the Pastor wanted to go down the line that who could not see problems coming when Abraham took Hagar as a wife. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that was what went wrong in their polygynous union. This is what happens when we do not let Scripture speak and try to say something that is not there.
 
The main problem I can see with any man is that we take the words in Scripture and try to put the definition of the words into today's culture and define them by that as well. This is where confusion and contradiction come from and why people get the wrong doctrine and directives from Scripture. You have to diagram Scripture correctly the same way one has to a diagram a sentence or you get misinterpretation of what is actually being said. Cherry picking Scripture to fit what we want it to say is common practice in everyday life and even seen Pastor's do it too in their sermons and I have literally sat in Church and read the verse that a Pastor was preaching on and said out loud that is not what that is saying for example, recently heard a message on Hagar and the Pastor wanted to go down the line that who could not see problems coming when Abraham took Hagar as a wife. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that was what went wrong in their polygynous union. This is what happens when we do not let Scripture speak and try to say something that is not there.
💯 true. I've had the same experience and even had to stop listening to the teachings of some men because of it. Mike Winger being an example. I used to love how well he dumbed down scripture for me. Recently, when he got himself involved in the polygyny debate on Youtube, I realized just how easily he can be persuaded to cherry-pick and misinterpret scripture for his fanbase of butt-hurt women. It's no different than most churches. Now I can't listen to him with a straight face.
 
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While I don’t hold to Calvin or his TULIP, I don’t understand the insanity that ensues over this topic. Regardless of what I think of the conclusions, I know that the doctrine is completely backed up by scripture. The divide comes in the interpretation.

I’ve heard very righteous, godly and evangelistic brothers tell me their side. They have a burden for souls.

Some of the most aggressive Evangelista of the last few centuries were Calvinists (Charles Spurgeon, Moody, Whitfield).

If a Calvinist is preaching the good news and looking to find lost sheep, who am I to criticize him?
 
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