Best place to learn about and study The Torah?

[The Revolting Man]

To whom are you talking? Because it sure doesn't look like you READ what you quoted.

Because if you can't see "what I believe and why" - it's because you don't READ.

So don't claim to know what's in my MIND, too!

If you can't see what I just WROTE and understand the point - try reading. Like "Paul said this is MY OPINION." Do you know what you have to OBEY or not?

Did you claim to find "doubts"? Then why aren't you CELIBATE? Do you DOUBT the Command of Paul?



Did you actually claim to have READ that? Or even found it in there somewhere? Then you probably have a future working for the New IRS.

Since frederick, too, seems to be incapable of following a non-binary "yes or no" sound-bite response to a non-sequitor (hey, when did did you quit berating your wife?) - here goes:

I believe Jacob went to Bethel. Because the Bible says so. I believe Paul would prefer you men to be celibate. Same reason.

Now what?

Shots fired! Full disclosure, some of us are dealing with full blown Paul deniers in a different medium so I may be bringing baggage to this conversation.

But why can’t the anti-Paul crowd ever just be upfront about what they think about Paul? Why does there have to be so much obfuscation? Why not just make a simple statement about Paul’s validity as scripture? Why all of the counter questions and quasi-sarcasm?

Paul makes very big claims about his ministry. There’s no in-between here. Either he’s teachings are some of the most important in the New Testament or he is a psychotic liar who made up stories about having visions and special revelation.

Which is it?

 

[Mark C]

Paul makes very big claims about his ministry. There’s no in-between here. Either he’s teachings are some of the most important in the New Testament or he is a psychotic liar who made up stories about having visions and special revelation.

Which is it?

I wrote and posted this on the subject a full decade ago:
"Is Paul a TARE?"

 

[FollowingHim]

Thankyou for that article @Mark C, I think I was misunderstanding you and heading off on an unjustified tangent above. Sorry about that.

Incidentally, after writing that I turned on an audiobook of the Shepherd of Hermas, which I couldn't remember reading before, and have listened to the first half of it through my jobs today. It's very interesting, because prior to standardisation the church in Rome accepted the Shepherd of Hermas, while Antioch and Alexandria rejected Hermas (reference). So it illustrates to some degree the theological differences between Rome and the rest of Christendom in the first few centuries.

Hermas, on the whole, is very interesting and full of good wisdom and advice. However it introduces both purgatory and monogamy - classic doctrines of catholicism. It specifically states that if a man divorces his wife he must remain single or reconcile with her, he can only remarry after she dies.

What is interesting is that the church collectively clearly recognised at least some of this stuff as being invalid additions to scriptural teaching, and chose to reject Hermas as canonical. At the same time though, the doctrines taught in Hermas were retained in practice by the Roman church, and when they attained primacy over the other churches they rolled out those doctrines as official for all Christians. And this helps to explain why the church as a whole and particularly the catholic church has very central doctrines that don't appear in scripture - they actually did appear in the scripture they were using in the foundational years which defined the culture and direction they would be travelling in.

 

[Mark C]

Thankyou for that article @Mark C, I think I was misunderstanding you and heading off on an unjustified tangent above. Sorry about that.

Incidentally, after writing that I turned on an audiobook of the Shepherd of Hermas...

Thanks, Samuel. Which reminded me, although I don't focus much on early heresies...
...I'm sure you're familiar with Marcion in the 2nd century. Called a heretic at first for, essentially, rejecting the Author of Scripture and His Word in large measure; later accepted 'hook, line, and sinker.'

 

[The Duke Of Marshall]

Best place to learn about/study The Torah? Accurately. I'm kind of skeptical of the things I read online.

I know I'm jumping in here kinda late, but just wanted to throw out a few resources that are Messianic, meaning Torah centered:

119 Ministries
https://www.119ministries.com/

Unlearn the lies
https://unlearnthelies.com/

God Honest Truth (shameless plug)
https://www.godhonesttruth.com/

Yahweh's Restoration Ministry
https://yrm.org/

And if you're looking for a more literal Torah based translation, I personally would recommend "The Scriptures" 2009 edition

About
https://isr-messianic.org/publications/the-scriptures.html

Buy
https://isr-messianic.org/shop/the-scriptures/

Read
https://www.bible.com/versions/316-ts2009-the-scriptures-2009

Another good translation is "Tree Of Life Version"

Read
https://www.bible.com/versions/314-tlv-tree-of-life-version

 

[LDremoved]

I know I'm jumping in here kinda late, but just wanted to throw out a few resources that are Messianic, meaning Torah centered:

119 Ministries
https://www.119ministries.com/

Unlearn the lies
https://unlearnthelies.com/

God Honest Truth (shameless plug)
https://www.godhonesttruth.com/

Yahweh's Restoration Ministry
https://yrm.org/

And if you're looking for a more literal Torah based translation, I personally would recommend "The Scriptures" 2009 edition

About
https://isr-messianic.org/publications/the-scriptures.html

Buy
https://isr-messianic.org/shop/the-scriptures/

Read
https://www.bible.com/versions/316-ts2009-the-scriptures-2009

Another good translation is "Tree Of Life Version"

Read
https://www.bible.com/versions/314-tlv-tree-of-life-version

Thank you very much! I'll check it out tonight when I get home from work.

 

[FollowingHim]

Thanks, Samuel. Which reminded me, although I don't focus much on early heresies...
...I'm sure you're familiar with Marcion in the 2nd century. Called a heretic at first for, essentially, rejecting the Author of Scripture and His Word in large measure; later accepted 'hook, line, and sinker.'

I was not familiar with Marcion. Just read up about him - what do you mean he was later accepted? The core things he taught are still considered heretical by all mainstream, trinitarian congregations.

 

[Mark C]

I was not familiar with Marcion. Just read up about him - what do you mean he was later accepted? The core things he taught are still considered heretical by all mainstream, trinitarian congregations.

Please do a little more study, perhaps from some more 'non-mainstream, trinitarian' sources, Samuel. Perhaps that heresy has become SO 'mainstream' in those sources that they don't honestly give him the credit he so richly deserves.

The fact that the mean, judgmental, patriarchal, nasty vengeful god of the 'olde' - therefore outdated and 'done away with', even 'nailed-to-the-cross' - OLD Testament has been replaced by the kinder, gentler, even warmer and fuzzier 'jesus' (who forgives everybody, and doesn't require 'repentance,' just a once-and-done prayer) is perhaps the simplest evidence. (Same for 'new testament churches'...oh, yeah - and the advice to newbies: start reading the Bible at John 1:1!)

And that certainly SEEMS to be THE main message from what I call the 'whore church'...

And it's arguably so mainstream that even leftist Wikipedia gets this part right:

"Marcion of Sinope (c. 85 – c. 160) was an early Christian theologian in early Christianity. Marcion preached that God had sent Jesus Christ who was an entirely new, alien god, distinct from the vengeful God of Israel who had created the world. He considered himself a follower of Paul the Apostle, whom he believed to have been the only true apostle of Jesus Christ, a doctrine called Marcionism. Marcion published the earliest extant fixed collection of New Testament books."

Which sounds at least a bit like things in this very thread.

From Angela Tilby in Heresies and How to Avoid Them (edited by Ben Quash and Michael Ward):

For him [Marcion], there was a fundamental contradiction between law and love, righteousness and grace. Marcion thought that true Christianity was flawed by the incompatibilities at the heart of its teaching. His solution was radical. Nothing less than a restatement of faith would do, and for Marcion that restatement had to focus on what for him was the essential gospel: the love, mercy and compassion displayed in the life and teachings of Jesus. This, for him, was all that was necessary, it was the blueprint for a new and pure humanity. There was no other truly Christian foundation for belief or morality.

BTW - I found that in this 'mainstream'-looking article:

Marcion and Getting Unhitched from the Old Testament

The idea of recasting Christianity for a new day--in softer, gentler hues, with updated ethics and a more relatable God--is always popular.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

 

[Mark C]

This week's regular Torah parsha (or portion) is Ki Tetze (Deuteronomy 21:10-25:19) which includes a whole LOTTA 'politically-incorrect' stuff that is usually of interest to people here.

Especially since it was never "done away with".

But since most folks who attend our on-line teachings or even download the podcasts regularly seem to accept the Truth of polygyny as a 'given' by this point (Deuteronomy 24:1-3 probably still elicits more questions, given so many hideous twistings in some English renderings and in Matthew 5, etc) this year I was led to focus more on the 'totality' of the theme.

The very fact that almost EVERYTHING in there tend to not merely be classed as "NOT PC" by the world that HATES YHVH and His Word, and we've arguably reached the point where not only is 'evil' called 'good' and vice-versa, but if Scripture calls something "abomination" (example abound in here alone) -- not only will Big Satanist Brother DO it, but they'll mandate acceptance, teach it to children in the Indoctrination Centers, and subsidize the practice.

That's what I hope people will take a careful look at this week.

Mark Call – Parsha “Ki Tetze” teaching from Shabbat Shalom Mesa | Hebrew Nation Online

hebrewnationonline.com

Parsha “Ki Tetze” teaching from Shabbat Shalom Mesa | Come out of her, My people…

 

[PeteR]

Just caught up on this thread and didn't see a comment I meant to put in here... maybe I posted somewhere else? (Please pardon the redundancy if I have...)

Regarding Paul's opinion re: celibacy, i'm inclined to believe in the midst of heavy persecution, he is thinking about Jeremiah. YHVH Himself told Jeremiah not to marry. Was that a violation of the Creation ordinance? Or, was it wisdom in the face of a particular set of circumstances?

See Jeremiah 16:1-5ish...

Paul was giving solid and sound advice in a particular set of circumstances that were not unlike Jeremiah's. I can't fault him and he is not 'violating Torah' any more than Yah was...

jmho

Shalom.

 

[cnystrom]

Best place to learn about/study The Torah? Accurately. I'm kind of skeptical of the things I read online.

If you are a beginner to the Bible I would start out reading about Jesus in the Gospel of Luke. The person of Jesus and who he is and what he did, is the whole focus of the Bible.

Read it in a version that is understandable to you.

If you want to know what happens next continue on to the book of Acts, which is basically Luke Part 2.

 

[Bina]

Correction: I've probably said -- on air, and off -- "I dont do dates," a thousand times. But, the truth is, the cataclysmic change has already happened. Most won't figure it out until the shelves at Wal Mart are empty.

Most should really try to avoid shopping at Walmart, as we are participating in putting smaller businesses out of business.

 

[Bina]

If you are a beginner to the Bible I would start out reading about Jesus in the Gospel of Luke. The person of Jesus and who he is and what he did, is the whole focus of the Bible.

Read it in a version that is understandable to you.

If you want to know what happens next continue on to the book of Acts, which is basically Luke Part 2.

I would recommend to do some Bible research primarily as some Bible's nowadays have removed entire text that are pertinent to spiritual growth and development. We will never know who authorized this recent development, however it can really be a curve ball to clarity. I believe the king James version might still be intact though.

 

[Mark C]

Most should really try to avoid shopping at Walmart, as we are participating in putting smaller businesses out of business.

There was a bit of sarcasm in there, @Bina, as you probably realized, but you make a good point. WalMart is a good 'indicator', however, because it will show when China pulls the plug. The rest of us should have alternatives before then.

As for the KJV, and other "authorized" renderings, there is much information on here about obvious 'errors', many in particular concerning marriage. I have an excellent photo facsimile of the 1599 Geneva Bible, with a forward by the publisher, Mike Brown, who was no fan of that particular king - which outlines a number of the problems.

I just checked - the audio link for the teaching that directly addresses the questions from this thread is still up on multiple sites. THIS is the link which goes directly to the 'heart of the issue' - for those that don't want to hear the intro, from the relevant reading (which you can read for yourself, even in the KJV...and might note some differences. )

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hebrewnationonline.com

 

[Mark C]

PS> I noticed this when I saw the update to the thread; couldn't help but ask (since I said back in mid-2022, and before, that the 'cataclysm' was already a done-deal, just that most 'scoffers' hadn't yet figured it out):

Think, November, 2020, January 6, boosters, mandates, etc, - and the continuing Bidenvasion:

But you better get on it pretty quickly, @Mark C is predicting cataclysmic change in two months or not at all.

"...saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation...."

Can you see it yet?

When 'the lights go out' - it will be too late for most. As it may already be for the "boostered-up".

I just saw an interview with the brilliant Catherine Austin Fitts, who observed that 2023 should in hindsight be referred to as the year when so many people 'finally started to get it.'

 

[Bina]

There was a bit of sarcasm in there, @Bina, as you probably realized, but you make a good point. WalMart is a good 'indicator', however, because it will show when China pulls the plug. The rest of us should have alternatives before then.

As for the KJV, and other "authorized" renderings, there is much information on here about obvious 'errors', many in particular concerning marriage. I have an excellent photo facsimile of the 1599 Geneva Bible, with a forward by the publisher, Mike Brown, who was no fan of that particular king - which outlines a number of the problems.

I just checked - the audio link for the teaching that directly addresses the questions from this thread is still up on multiple sites. THIS is the link which goes directly to the 'heart of the issue' - for those that don't want to hear the intro, from the relevant reading (which you can read for yourself, even in the KJV...and might note some differences. )

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hebrewnationonline.com

Thank you Sir

 

[Ruth Elizabeth]

Um... So I thought this might be a fine thread to ask it on but I recently keep hearing people talk about the Torah, and I heard about it once years ago from a guy who thought that meant we needed to keep the law of Moses exactly as is, but what is the difference between the Torah or the KJV of the bible? Is it a different translation or something? (I don't believe the KJV is a perfect translation the fact that they had to change Jacob's name to James in honor of the King is proof of that so I have been interested to learn Hebrew and try to read the bible as is.) Do followers of Torah have a different set of beliefs from normal christianity, like Christian but following Jewish Tradition or the law of Moses perfectly?

 

[Joleneakamama]

You will likely get a range of answers. We believe the law still defines sin, and as long as sin is possible....it will continue to do so. We have family that keep the feasts. We don't celebrate most holidays, but don't keep all the feasts either.

We see more of prophesy fulfilled than some of those that keep Torah. We usually find other substantive differences in how prophesy is understood.

We have family that study Hebrew, but I don't think it has helped their understanding. I think they spend too much time staring at trees up close.....and don't see the forest.

There are certainly differences from mainstream Christianity. Some very good, some maybe not.

 

[Ruth Elizabeth]

You will likely get a range of answers. We believe the law still defines sin, and as long as sin is possible....it will continue to do so. We have family that keep the feasts. We don't celebrate most holidays, but don't keep all the feasts either.

Thanks for answering and sorry for asking so many question. What do you mean the law defines sin? When you say the laws, which ones exactly do you mean? Do you mean everything outlaid by Moses in Leviticus?

 

[frederick]

What do you mean the law defines sin?

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
We can know what sin is by knowing God's commands or His Law. Sin is defined by God therefore we need to know what He requires of each one of us and not violate His commands.