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Biblical "Patriarchy"

nathan

nathan

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In our culture, and many modern church circles, the word "patriarchal" is almost as bad as "polygamy". It's certainly possible to consider yourself patriarchal, without accepting polygamy. It's even possible to believe in plural marriage without accepting "patriarchy" - though it would seem doomed to me (reminds me of the old Mark Twain polygamy joke: "no man can serve 2 masters".)

Vision Forum has a good "tenets of Biblical Patriarchy" statement:
http://www.visionforumministries.org/home/about/biblical_patriarchy.aspx

What do you think? Anything in there you disagree with? Anything that really challenges you? There's a lot I still need to grow into in loving patriarchy, even after 12 years of plural marriage. #25 seems like a battle we could be fighting for the rest of our natural lives.
 
that's a good link, although I'm afraid many 'christians', especially women would find it rather offensive.
some folks read scripture as though women were second class, totally ignoring the parts where they were esteemed highly.
as one Jewish rabbi said, in general society it looks as if women are second class, it's in the home where they are esteemed very highly as a valuble asset. after all, who manages the house while the husband is away? who teaches the children the values the head puts forth? who really holds the family together as a cohesive unit?
really, think about that, and know what true value is!!! women are not second class, they are absolutely essentual beings who's worth is far above rubies. unless of course they fall in the class of a contentious wife....but that's another story.
 
I for one think Patriarchy is just another word for God's order. Our modern society has feminism so ingrained in it that men feel they have to apologize when they take their rightful place in that order. The same stuff that makes polygamy disreputable in our society is the stuff that makes women think they need to be the same as men. very basic flaw in modern culture.
 
I agree with most of it.

There are four issues for me that need to be discussed. I agree with everything else.

1. The section on raising children would in effect eliminate any public education. I am not opposed to that, but it will be an issue for many of us.

2. I am not sure that I agree that women should not work in the work place.

3. I have a more conservative understanding of birth control today than the website shares, but I agree with what they share.

4. I am not sure what I think about eliminating age group separation. This is something I have not really thought about much.
 
Good call outs, Randy.

Some things on you "short list" would condemn me also - even though I agree in principle on most, we must have grace for where God has us all at the moment - we all have lots of growing to do, and particular circumstances to deal with. God can convict us where He wants us to "grow" next, if we are open to change from Him.

I hadn't thought a lot about "age separation" either, although I do like those fully-family-integrated churches - it hasn't been an option for us for several reasons (not the least of which would be my full family not being welcome!).

On women in the workplace, they say: "14. While unmarried women may have more flexibility in applying the principle that women were created for a domestic calling". I would add, if they would get a clue about polygamy, they could say "plural families may have more flexibility in applying the principle that women were created for a domestic calling." Nice fit, huh? I certainly agree with the idea of "always a mom at home when kids are there".
 
Some more thoughts...

I think that it would be a good move for us as believers to slowly get our children out of the public system. I am raising my grand children, and I think it is time to begin moving toward a more christ centered education. I think I do like the "family style" church. It is more challenging, but probably better for the children in the bigger picture. I firmly believe that the ladies should be with their children during the growing up years, for sure, if at all possible.
 
Like a few others on the board, I am a big advocate of home schooling. I wasn't always that way; I used to question people who pulled their kids out of the public school system. I guess we grow up on a lot of things.... ;)

But home schooling fits right into the plural marriage concept, by shifting the responsibility for the education of children across more people.

In many ways, advocates of home schooling have faced and are facing similar battles to those who advocate plural marriage. The state is so entrenched in education, that they maintain ownership of it.

Doc
 
I'm with you on the Publik Skools, Doc. When I was doing my Christian-patriarchal-constitution-oriented radio show, I had a tag line on the topic, and would say
"there are three things one should do concerning your children and those indoctrination centers:

Get 'em out. Get 'em OUT. GET 'EM OUT!"
Click to expand...
 
Araina and I want to homeschool but, are worried that we won't do a good enough job since she would have to take care of all 3 while I am at work. I wish we could do sort of a test run to experiment with it. Maybe what we need is some kind of support or fellowship for homeschooling. Having someone that already does that near by would be awesome..
 
My sister, who is NOT poly, or even Poly friendly homeschools. Most of the people in their church. The order a Christian Curriculum and they have a co-op type of thing that allows for science experiments and group stuff. She keeps the kids in community sports. Check with local churches to see what they offer in terms of home school support system. It is getting more and more common.
 
John and I homeschool all three of our kiddies, and sometimes my baby sister (15) joins the "class" too. I've encountered lots of people who say that they would love to do it, but are either too scared, don't know enough, will be out numbered by the kids, wouldn't be organized or disciplined enough, and so on and so on.... What I say to them is this: Anyone who loves their children can homeschool! It doesn't have to be "school" at home. There's lots of different ways to go about it. We're quite relaxed in our home, I've met others who are extremely organized. It's whatever fits your personalities!

As to the patriarchy article, I found it interesting. However, the person who wrote it seems too restrictive. They don't seem to be able to think outside the box. The husband should be the head of his house, and a wife should be in submission to her husband, but sometimes a wife can't always be a stay-home mom, and sometimes the kids have to go to public schools. There needs to be some flexibility allowed for these situations.

One thing that scares me when patriarchy is brought up, are the guys who seem to think that women are their property. They ignore the fact that women are just as blessed by God as men are. These men seem to also be extremely boisterous!
 
Just a quick note on homeschooling: There are lots of homeschool support groups around that will help you with any questions and with subjects for older kids. You don't have to go it alone. A lot of people feel like they cannot homeschool because they don't have the level of education they think they need to teach their children. In most cases, this is simply not the true. If there is a concept that you do not already have a good working understanding of, you can learn it together and both of you will be getting a great education! You can also turn to the support groups and co-ops for help. Who else ,but you the parent , knows the way your child learns best? Who else, but you the parent, loves your child enough to lay down their life for them? Who else, but you the parent ,was given by God the priviledge and honor and responsibility to teach your child? We often forget that God tells us to train up our children in the way they should go so that when they are old, they will not depart from it. Do you really think that public school, controlled by our modern government, will do that? I do not condemn those who have chosen not to homeschool, but I do strongly recommend that you evaluate carefully the education options available to you and your family rather than just accepting what our culture says is norm. You guys should know better than to do that by now! :lol: At the very least, you need to be pro-actively involved in your child's education, whatever route you choose to take. Hope I said something that is useful to somebody. ;)

Your Sister in Christ,
Rebecca
 
Rebecca,

I really believe that it is important for Christian parents to try everything they can to get their children out of public school.
 
I second that, Pastor Randy. When the Bible talks about teaching the difference between the "clean and unclean", and later advises us to "come out of her", lest we be partakers of the coming plagues, it is hard to deny that we must start by not allowing the prince of this world to teach our children obedience to Caesar rather than God.
 
The problem with the philosophy outlined in the link from vision forum is that
it still has the State in it. And of course, Romans 13 is abused to support this claim. Government enthusiasts are the problem. Men that say, America is a christian nation are part of the problem.
Not all government on earth is to be obeyed 100% of the time. That is in itself an extremism that has placed the church in the hierarchy where it does not belong.
 
Memphis Dwight said:
Not all government on earth is to be obeyed 100% of the time. That is in itself an extremism that has placed the church in the hierarchy where it does not belong.
Click to expand...
Finally, a man that says eggsactly what's the problem with society.
We should NEVER exalt man leadership as headship/godship.
 
Government of the people, for the people, by the people!

Who's corrupt and needing salvation? The People!

Well, there are problems with government, but take it with a grain of salt. Everyone in the government is a person from top to bottom, there is simply no way to get it perfect. Peoples flaws compound on each other in government too, and there isn't any way to really and truly prevent corruption unless a good person is in government hunting it out. Acting as if governments are anything more than a group of people is self-deception. That isn't belittling them, they are still who they are, but it is a natural caution not to blindly follow.

On Womanseekinggod's comments,
No working outside of home does seem like an idea stemming from the ideas of women a couple centuries ago rather than a couple millenia ago. We know women owned land in the bible, it was spelled out for us. We know they did work that made profits, because the Talmund talks about what happens with them when she gets married or divorced (They go to her family under her husband, or cease to go there, respectively). For that land to have increase, someone must have worked it. If it was her, that's heavy, manual labour outside of home all day in certain seasons. If she hired a man to do it the assumption fails even more, because she is in authority over him in that business. No mater what, the idea of no woman working outside the home is out the window.

Even we sometimes forget that both historically and in terms of logical social economics monogamy severely devalues women. 1:1 is easier to control, when there are more women than men women have to work even to find a bad husband, and many are given no choice other than celibacy or promiscuity. In the 200's monogamy called women evil, in 1700 it called them worthless, and even just before the 1900's it took their right to vote away in the US. Despite the feminist tales of 'progress' its very likely it was better to be a woman in 1800 BCE than 1800 CE.

While I agree with many of the statements in the patriarchy site, I feel that one can only be reached if you always assume the work of her hands is always something like stitchwork and the work of his hands is always something like carpentry. As it sits we know she did heavy work too. I feel assuming otherwise is monogamist influenced.
 
WomanSeekingGod said:
One thing that scares me when patriarchy is brought up, are the guys who seem to think that women are their property. They ignore the fact that women are just as blessed by God as men are. These men seem to also be extremely boisterous!
Click to expand...

Well the reason that men act as though women are their peoperty is this default assumtion.
When it says that a woman should submit to her husband in all things it means that it is the mans Job to force the woman to submit.
This is not true.
To say that would be adding to scripture.
Jesus said why call me lord and do not the thing I say unto you.
If submission is not volentary there can be no love in it.
Yes the woman should submit to her husband in all things but nothing should be forced.
The woman should seek to serve her husband because she trusts God.
The husband should not seek to dominate his wife.
The husband is commanded to love the wife as he loves himself.
There is no condition to this commandment meaning he must love her regaurdless if she is submissive or not.
Force submission is slavery and Slavery is evil.
Volentary submission is to be a servant and to serve others is Good.
To serve others because God Commanded you to is To be Godly.
Trust in God as David did when he submited to King Saul and you will be blessed No matter if you trust those that have authority over you or not.
 
I really don't know of any man that forces his wife into submission. In fact, I don't know of many families where the wife is even voluntarily subjective.
Obedience is such a foreign thing to many that it is portrayed as unnatural.
 
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