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Bustin' Outa The Closet or Tellin' The Fam

I was asked the other day by a beloved family member that if I believed that polygyny was biblical did I also believe that I could live it out openly in my church life. After so many adverse comments had already been made by other family members (sinner, wicked, filled with lust and pride), and given the testimony of other brothers on this board, I was tempted to say no. The point of this family member was that I might realize that the church and its traditions should have bearing on my beliefs and convictions.

In Ephesians 5:21 we are called to (hupodeiknumi) live out our lives before one another in the fear of Christ. Many in the church would like to read that as the following verse 22 says (hupotasso) subject to one another. There is a great difference between these two admonitions.

The Lord reminded me of what life was like in America in the first half of last century. If I were a white man walking into church with my black wife, what would have been the outcome? Would I feel like I could live out my life openly in that church? The issue was not with the biblical union of such a couple, it was in the non-biblical response of the church. And such has been many like situations throughout history.

Many here on the board have chosen to not cause a brother to stumble and thus have stopped attending those churches. Others have maintained a low profile. The standard should not be what others in the church will say or think BUT, what does God say and think. When did the followers of Christ get to be so mean? When did their traditions supercede God’s ways?

It is a sad thing to think of isolation from the body of believers, but as for me and my household we will wholly follow the Lord. Whether or not we are called to polygyny remains to be seen, as it is up to God. But it is time to call the church back into the word and remind them of the witness of Berea “now these were more noble minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so”. The church must stop resting upon what they have heard from men who have given book reports from the pulpit, based upon what other men have said, and start examining the word for themselves!

Ray
 
Thank you, thank you, thank you for that word study on Eph 5:21-22. Amazing. In front of our eyes all along.

I couldn't agree more. Time to be open and educate.

Method is still up in the air.

Mentioned it a few weeks ago to a single woman at church, who said she'd like to hear what I had to say about it. This last Sabbath, I asked if she was serious about wanting to hear? She said, No. She didn''t want to become contaminated. Still friends, no problem, but No.

Wow! Contaminated by hearing the word of God! Maybe we need to do some contaminating!
 
Many, go to church for wrong reasons. You were right to make sure she was serious about hearing.
 
Have any of you ever thought of forming a new denomination that fully accepts PM? I know many of you hold to different doctrins but from what I have seen here you for the most part have deep spiritual beliefs.
It would not have to be solely based on PM but based on the common Biblical doctrins.
I am a fundamental Baptist the church where I belong has a few hold to the Calvinistic bent, and some don't have any idea what they believe. (However I don't know of any practicing Polys, a least none openly, wow, now I'm starting to wonder emm )
You seem to have a some what common thread from SDA, Messenic, and a Luthern or two .
why not start a thread stating what you belive? and go from their.
Are any of :idea: you atheisits?
 
Welll...

My wife is telling me that I oughta go online, get a pastor permit or whatever, and do that very thing. It is a possibility, and does deserve serious consideration. ...

Name suggestions? Personally, I lean toward The Church of the Holy Harem, but that is probably my mischievous side popping out.

OTOH, there is validity in it. SERIOUSLY, Dr Ray. The worch "Church" in Greek, so I understand, "Ecclesia" or "The called out ones", is a singular term for a group of related individuals. That makes it grammatically identical to herd, flock, and harem. And since we, individually, claim to be members of the bride of Christ, we apparently are laying claim to a place in the spiritual holy harem.

Of course, with that explanation the word "church" becomes redundant, but it do roll off the tongue nicely. As does "Biblical Families Worship Center".

I now sit back, and wait for the better suggestions or cries of outrage to roll in. *grin* But while portions of this post seem light hearted, I DO take the suggestion very seriously. Thanks, Bob.
 
Absolutely off topic, but ...

Have any of you noticed that the icon :idea: looks precisely like the upper rear elevation of a white tailed deer? Or possibly an elk?

Always strikes my funny bone when it appears.
 
Ray,

I appreciate not only your post and word, but your name. It is good to have another teacher here. There are far too many apostles and prophets on the site. Now we are getting some balance. :D

The modern ‘church’ is not the same as the first century church and we are not called to lay down our lives for them. There are some true believers who want to obey God, but most just want to do their own thing. As I have said else where, we are called to lay down our lives for the obedient brethren, but we are NOT called to lay down our lives for disobedient ‘Christians’....

John 15:12-14 - (NKJV)

12“This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14“You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Bob and Cecil, et. al.,

Most congregations fall into what Jesus called the congregation of Satan, (Rev. 3:9). The leaders and many of the flock have gone astray and will be dealt with accordingly, (Ezekiel 34). God separated us years ago and started a home church through us. We are small, but mighty. Our name is Adonai’s Agape Through Jesus Christ Ministries, (circa 2002). It is the name that God gave us. We were not aware of the PM thing until more recently, but have incorporated it into our teachings as God revealed it to us. In 2006, God moved us to South Africa and we lost all of our ‘members’. Interestingly it was PM that caused the last to leave! We have been persecuted severely but are still thriving and walking in the power of the Holy Spirit. It can be done.

Be blessed,

Ray, (the other one):)
 
As far as a name I would sugest it not be a long one, have no name associated with any other group such as Church Of G-D,Presbterian,Baptist etc.
If you want to be sort of "camoflauged", then drawing attention to your PM belief by using Herem would be a good way to do that, on the other hand you wouldn't necessarly want to have none PM visitors come and go away thinking that is the only thing you have. As an example what do most people think of when you mention Morman? Yea many wives. although that is just one part of their doctrines
I think some churches that use the word fellowhip or worship center are trying to cover up what they are, a church. I guess they figure if you invide some one to the felloship center they will be likely to attend, opposed to asking someone to "church" that's just my oppinion.
why not a name such as The Worldwide Congration of the Living Savior or The House of the Brethern?
Here are some things to consider:
1. How is a person Saved
2. Method of Baptism
3. Church Ordanances (how many,when practiced)
4. Church leadership (local or a hirarchy, qualifications for leadership)
5. What roll does the Bible have?
 
Love the subject matter here!

This is what I've been in prayer about, since discovering the Biblical Truths of PM. I've prayed that the lies of the devil would be exposed, the scales of deception/wrong western religious thinking would fall off of the eyes of many well meaning believers! That through unity in Christ alone, we could reach, learn & grow with one another as "Brothers & Sisters in Christ." Faith in the One True God alone, with all of western secular/P.C. Lukewarm & man made traditions aside, to be able to go forth in His Holy Name. And in doing so, helping to reveal God's Holy & Pure mission for those of us who claim to be in God's family. Not saying that only PM is God's true mission or perfect call for our lives as Christians, but that it is a huge part of the missing puzzle piece of God's great & lovely plan for our lives. One of the details of His Holy & Lovely plan for us, that does indeed include PM as an added blessing in our lives. God desires us to have the abundant life, if we will just follow Him & seek His ways above our own! I do see how living in a PM could equate to having the abundant life & then some! :)

So with that being said, I say we should put on the "Full Armor of God," going forth in His Mighty Name & begin to shout the truths of the FULL GOSPEL MESSAGE that does include PM from the mountain tops! :p So who here wants to start the first ever PM church?! ;) Go for it, Cecil, Ray or any number of you wise bretheren in the Lord here! Part of what B.F's does on this board is just that, shouting all of God's truths from the computer mountain tops to all the masses who have an ear & heart to hear God's revealed truths!

I for one would be blessed and happy to have a church or home group to go to, that shares all of the truths of the gospel. A church that could be a family, united in Christ and not united by church by-laws/doctrines & man made traditions. That's a huge prayer request for us all to be in faithful prayer about. One here in Michigan would be great! I know how selfish, as all 50 of these God given states need the same truth taught in them. I'd be grateful just to be able to connect with another poly family here in Michigan to study, worship, pray & share fellowship with.

Speaking of churches teaching the truths on PM, I have shared questions concerning PM with our Pastor. We are very close to our pastor, & he didn't freak out or kick me out the fellowship of our church family when I approached him with questions on pm. I even gave him B.F.'s website info, and he briefly checked into it. He hasn't got back with me about it, and I'm not sure how much he really researched any of it. But I feel blessed that he has an open enough heart & mind for the things of the Lord, to be transparent & compassionate of the concerns of his church family. Who knows where the Lord will lead my Pastors thoughts/beliefs & heart in all of this. Something I should pray more about for our pastor and for all pastors. Hey, ya know how there's a Presidential Prayer Team on the web? We could start our own Pastoral Prayer Team. Praying God's will to be done first & foremost, and that the scales of deception and false teachings would fall off of all of the Pastors of the nation's eyes! Maybe even host some Big Tent Pastoral revival meetings! :p Reviving all God-Ordained Biblical forms of marriage in those big tent revivals. Then maybe true & pure biblical churches would spring forth!

Ok Ok, enough of my rantings here! Please forgive my long-windedness here, as I have allot on my heart & mind these days! Thanks for taking the time to hear my heart. :) Take care and go forth in His Holy Name, being a blessing to others & being blessed along the way.

Faithful Servant
 
FS,

Great post and enthusiasm for Christ, (I detect an evangelical gift). This is exactly what God's true church needs! You can start your own group in your home. Simply pray and ask if this is God's will and follow the lead of the Holy Spirit for everything. When it gets established, you will be surprised at the power that a small group will have. We did dinner and then shared the Word. It was wonderful! NO one thought of it as a 'church', but it was. At one point we were meeting every day and even got to the point where we pooled our incomes and no one lacked any good thing.

Do not be concerned about the Judas' who will come and go. It is all part of the plan. We have to learn how it feels to be hated without a cause. God will give you a name, that is what He did for us. We do not have to do that, and probably should not, or at least be prepared to change it when He tells us to. Pray that you do nothing of your own, but just show up and let the Holy Spirit lead the group. Do not try to operate in gifts that God has not given you yet. Pray the simply prayer that God bring all the people who are supposed to be in your life and take out all the people who are not supposed to be there. Then be ready to be surprised at the outcome.
I am happy to help you in any way that I can.

Be blessed,

Ray
 
brYce said:
The Pastor will probably say, "That's ADULTERY!" :roll:
Click to expand...

This one wouldn't, because it isn't.

Sadly, mine is certainly the minority view. That doesn't make it wrong, however. It just makes it unpopular.

T-C
 
bobnsandy said:
Have any of you ever thought of forming a new denomination that fully accepts PM? I know many of you hold to different doctrins but from what I have seen here you for the most part have deep spiritual beliefs.
Click to expand...

I have thought about that too, but I eventually decided it was a bad idea. Support and discussion groups are good. They are about building people up, educating, and promoting unity. Denominations are about division and separating one part of the body from another. I don't think that glorifies God. On a more practical level, any denomination formed with plural marriage as its impetus would almost inevitably become all about plural marriage despite the founders' best efforts. It would be a lightning rod in a political and cultural climate in which any abnormality will be seized upon to demonize and destroy or control.

I strongly believe that biblical patriarchy and the acceptance of polygyny are ideas that God wants to promote spontaneously in disconnected pockets of his people. He is calling his people out of a corrupt system, not into another system made by men, but into obedience to him and drawing others with them.

Existing local congregations should come out in favor of biblical principles, and new ones can certainly be formed, but another denomination is probably the last thing we need.
 
I'm mostly with Jay on this one. What we WOULD like to see is "home churches" get established, not a "denomination". We at Biblical Families desire to see home churches started over the next few years, and support them in various ways; hopefully with a few families close enough to meet, if not every week, once a month perhaps (notice I didn't say every Sabbath or Sunday :) ). Doctrinal specifics (beyond basic Christian tenants) would up to the family patriarchs, as they hear from God, not us or any corporate entity. Of course, we'd love to offer the same support to "existing local congregations" that might come out in favor of more Biblical marriage principles, but we're not yet holding our breath on that one.
 
I know this will be unpopular on this kind of a board.

I used to be anti-denominational until I came to truly understand Apostolic Ministry, but I won't go into all that here. Moreover, Scripture mentions both positive and negative divisions - some are needed to separate out false teaching - others are a result of the flesh. Speaking of Home Churches, they can be nothing more than "mini denominations", and just as divisive (if not more so) as major denominations. Denominationalism are no more inherently divisive than a house church, and if you don't believe that, check out how many house churches are in a large city. Go visit 10 of them. You will discover some of the most extreme differences in Christianity available. Therefore, the unity being experience is confined to those who meet there... how we think that this is a demonstration of unity with the entire body of Christ is beyond the way that I personally understand logical principles.

I believe it is possible for a "denomination" to be a family of churches that are headed up by one Apostolic team, while another "denomination" can be headed up by another Apostolic team, similar to Paul overseeing the Gentile Churches, and Peter overseeing the Hebrew Churches (there are few other ways to sort out how a denomination could possibly work, I am just using one example. I believe that a denomination could have many Apostles for example). I believe that when one looks at the bigger picture, this has more potention of bringing more people into unity than does individual home groups and fits into the paradigm of Ephesians 4 (i.e. maintaining the UNITY OF THE SPIRIT until we all reach the UNITY OF THE FAITH via the five-fold ministry). The UNITY OF THE SPIRIT has to do with getting along with those you disagree with if they are truly believers in Christ, the UNITY OF THE FAITH is and idiomatic expression of DOCTRINAL UNITY. So, the goal of the five-fold ministry is to bring people to doctrinal unity while helping them keep the unity of the Spirit until the process is worked out. Once it is worked out, then the promise of Psalm 133 takes place because the unity isn't surface level.

The point is that when a denomination is established (I am certainly not advocating this for Biblical Families) their is actually greater potential for true unity to take place then if there were mere home groups.

Furthermore, my understanding of Biblical home groups is that they were under the leadership of a group of Elders (with various giftings of Ephesians 4) overseeing the home groups of their city, hence the mentioning of the Church of Antioch, or the Church of Ephesus. Remember Paul met with the Elders of a City Church, and there is not doubt that that City Church, was full of home groups submitted to particular Elders of that city.

Acts 15 provides an amazing paradigm of how a denominational system works in cooperation with local City Churches. Apostles, Elders and some believers met together, not to control local churches, but to provide leadership over a few doctrinal concerns (hence, providing an example of how Ephesians 4 works - leaders bringing people into doctrinal unity). They made some doctrinal decisions that was givent to all the churches under their control as mandates to follow. So, on one hand they decided for a group of people what to believe, yet, on the other side, they didn't try to usurp the authority of the local city church. Similar, in some ways, in how the relationship between the U.S. Federal government and State governments are supposed to work.

Also, one person said "any denomination formed with plural marriage as its impetus would almost inevitably become all about plural marriage despite the founders' best efforts." You may be right. However, there are already some denominations that are open to Plural Marriage (see wiki "Christian Plural Marriage), even though the ones I know of are out of Africa, when I personally searched out where some of there congregations are located, I discovered that they have congregation in the U.S. So, it remains to be seen if someone started a denomination in the States that was open to plural marriage if it would be "all about Plural Marriage".

I pesonally struggle with having any church group center around one or two doctrines. To me that is unbalanced. My hermeneutical paradigm goes like this: Ephasize what God emphasizes; teach the whole counsel of God; remain balanced.

Anyway, my two cents!
 
I know this will be unpopular on this kind of a board...

...Scripture mentions both positive and negative divisions...

...therefore, the unity being experience[d] is confined to those who meet there... how we think that this is a demonstration of unity with the entire body of Christ is beyond the way that I personally understand logical principles...
Click to expand...

Interesting commentary, Pastor Randy. I can certainly see how the principle of "doctrinal unity" is important within my own house. It is very difficult for two or three (or more) to "walk together" unless they are in agreement.

Often I find that my own comments concerning multiple Brides at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb are equally 'unpopular' -- ESPECIALLY on fora where people have never thought about the implications of the nature of EVERY relationship that God describes between Himself and His PEOPLE (or even peopleS)!

But I think every man who has ever taken up the challenge of headship to more than one wife (or even in many cases more than one individual, as in large families) can understand aspects of your contention. How can a man lead a 'congregation' if he cannot even lead his own house, much less come to terms with variations of 'doctrine'?

People are different, because God simply made them that way. They do not see His creation in the same way. Even wives who very much love their husband, and seek to follow him, and seek to follow God's Word and honor Him in the process, will have different and wonderful relationships to that same loving man.

Is it any wonder, then, that people in "denominations", or even 'home churches' would seek out those with similar understanding...and that there inevitably MUST be more than one Bride when He returns to take those who have been filled with the 'oil' of His Ruach Hakodesh ('Set-apart Spirit')?

The miracle is not that we can love more than one wife, and certainly not that He can. Those with "eyes to see" will accept this Truth. But the real "mystery" that Paul referred to was how "many" can become "echad" in one House, through one true Husband.
 
OK...coming back on topic a bit here......I have found an easy way of not only telling my family but my friends as well. I do not, though I have in some ways, come right out and tell them face to face.....but......(speaking of face ) I have posted it on my profile on Facebook as well as Myspace. I had an old school friend who asked to be my friend on facebook ask me about it. He tried to preach to me about it in an e-mail. Just told him I am willing to agree to disagree and then directed him to BF. Have not heard a word from him about it any more but he has not locked me out of being his friend. Same way on Myspace. I have family who are "friends on both sites and it is all there to read about me supporting polygany. No one has asked about it and we still all do things.....so this might be a way of letting family and friends know in a round about way and it could be a way of opening the door for some "friendly" discussion with them all.

Just a thought from out in the Gulf.
 
Yeah Dapastor, I've come to see denomination in general as good things which represent legitimate differences among believers. Of course some denoms are ruthlessly unfaithful, but they arn't too hard to spot. Biblical Families becoming a denom would be a full fledged disaster though, acceptable differences in denominations are differences of opinion, and what we are talking about here is not a mater of opinion but something Chisitians eventually need to understand to further their walk with God.
 
Tlaloc said:
Yeah Dapastor, I've come to see denomination in general as good things which represent legitimate differences among believers. Of course some denoms are ruthlessly unfaithful, but they arn't too hard to spot. Biblical Families becoming a denom would be a full fledged disaster though, acceptable differences in denominations are differences of opinion, and what we are talking about here is not a mater of opinion but something Chisitians eventually need to understand to further their walk with God.
Click to expand...

Hello,

Whether one is involved with a home group or a denomination - neither guarantee doctrinal faithfulness. I would never recommend that BF become a denomination. There are too many doctrinal differences. Agreeing to disagree keeps everything on a very surface level. Theologically, it is called "Latitudinarianism". On the other hand, a denomination that embraces polygyny while being unified in many other doctrines could be a real blessing.
 
Oooookay!

2 institutions come to us from the Garden. The Sabbath and Marriage. Or so I've been taught. No-one seems to mention fashion ...

Anyway, Sir BumbleBerry just said:

Phooey on the Seventh-day Adventists! I'm officially starting a new denomination, the Seventh-day Polyginists, claiming roots Aaaaaaaalll the way back! All together now, "Give me that OOOOLD Time Religion, it's good enough for me."

:lol:
 
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