Can you name 10 traditions Yeshua Hamashiach took issue with?

[IshChayil]

I believe in the Messianic/Jewish Roots/Hebrew Roots movement (if I can umbrella all of that),
there is a backlash happening against tradition and there is what I feel to be an unfounded generalization that the Messiah was somehow anti-tradition. So, I'd like to explore this a little bit and see if out of the 40,000 alleged Pharisaical traditions we can find 10 that Yeshua stood against.
I'll get us started:

1. Healers should not do healing on the Sabbath day
2. Breaking standing grain and munching on the Sabbath (not harvesting) is categorized as labor
3. One must say the purification prayer and ritually wash hands before eating

I'm sure we can find at least a few more. I'm curious if we can hit 10 or not. Note they need to be different issues; I'm not even sure if 1&2 should really be separate as they are both the same issue: categorized activities as labor, but I'll leave them up as 2 separate tradition issues to be a good sport.

Shalom, let's keep this fun and also be open and honest about his true stance.

 

[steve]

40,000 alleged Pharisaical traditions

Wow!
That’s a pile of ‘em!

I thought of numbers 2&3 when I saw the title, but other than that I got nuthin.

 

[PeteR]

I doubt you'll find 10... maybe if we include Peter's reprimand for not associating with non-Jews in Acts 10 and a couple other inferred apostolic pointers.

I have no problem with tradition (we have a few of our own) as long as the tradition isn't portrayed as or made to be mandatory. As soon as that happens it has been elevated to a place of equal or superior status to what God requires. It is then that I feel obligated to throw a flag and cry 'foul.'

IMHO, the tribes had differences in observances as evidenced by 'sibboleth' 'shibboleth' dialectic differences. At that time one tribe was testing, judging and eliminating another tribe with a difference that was not commanded. Rather, I believe Abba delights in variety... trees, flowers, rocks, people, etc. Similarly, i think He enjoys variety of observance. As long as we stay inside the basic Torah guidelines, we are good and should enjoy our differences, not seek to conform everyone else to our preferred or percieved 'perfect' standard.

Just my 2 shekels.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

The tradition of 'corban' replacing the obligation to honor the mother and father. (Mentioned right after the handwashing)

There were probably more than 10 things like this that existed (Many such things you do).

I know next to nothing about HR/MJ thought, so I won't be staying long, but it seems that God (in either testament) isn't 'against' tradition as long as it doesn't contradict His commandments. He honored the rechabites (sp?) for their tradition of living in tents and drinking no wine. He certainly never commanded them to live that way, but it didn't nullify any of His laws to do so, in fact this tradition very much honored their father who gave the original directive. It was a tradition made in harmony with the Word. (In my view)

 

[Verifyveritas76]

I’ll take a stab at it for a few minutes.

Respect of persons
Blowing a trumpet when giving alms
Praying to be seen of men
Baptism without repentance (ok thats probably a John thing but . . .)
Money changing in the Temple
Teaching doctrines of men as commandments of God
Seeking the highest seat or room at a feast
Robbing widows
Goal tending. Making someone a twofold child of hell.
Divorce for every reason
Calling one Lord, Master, Rabbi, Father

Ok thats as much time as Im interested in spending on this. It’s all you guys. Have fun.

 

[PeteR]

I’ll take a stab at it for a few minutes.

Respect of persons
Blowing a trumpet when giving alms
Praying to be seen of men
Baptism without repentance (ok thats probably a John thing but . . .)
Money changing in the Temple
Teaching doctrines of men as commandments of God
Seeking the highest seat or room at a feast
Robbing widows
Goal tending. Making someone a twofold child of hell.
Divorce for every reason
Calling one Lord, Master, Rabbi, Father

Ok thats as much time as Im interested in spending on this. It’s all you guys. Have fun.

Certainly, those are sins He called out, but are they all 'traditions' codified in Rabbinic law (halakah)? I'm not so sure.

 

[rockfox]

Certainly, those are sins He called out, but are they all 'traditions' codified in Rabbinic law (halakah)? I'm not so sure.

Some of those like praying to be seen might just be a common temptation/practice. But much of the rest were traditions nonetheless.

Also:
all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments
depriving parents of support via Corban
swearing by the temple/alter
tithing herbs
ritual washing of dishes
paying honor to the prophets/righeous

Many of those came from Matthew 23, which alone had 9 or 10 condemned traditions; depending on how you want to count it, maybe more. And Christ was quite vitriolic in his condemnations too.

 

[mrwill]

The problem with traditions (IMO) is that they cloud the issues. Many of them start as a way of providing a buffer for obedience (the line is here, so let's make a new line that's a bit closer). That restricts the freedom that is a gift of God, while also potentially creating legalism and inviting temptation. A great example was the first instance in the garden. Adam was told not to eat the fruit. Eve was told not to touch it. But touching it wasn't a sin. They could've touched it all day. The sin was in the eating. When Satan made it clear that the rule Eve was living by wasn't a real rule, it made it easier for her to move on to the eating.

 

[frederick]

Eve was told not to touch it. But touching it wasn't a sin.

I often pondered this and wondered if Eve wasn't wrong in what she said as God prohibits even touching in e.g. Lev. 11:26.
Traditions aren't so much the issue as is upholding the authority of holy scripture. When people replace or compromise on the one with the other, there is a failure to honor and obey God. It seems to me that was what Jesus repeatedly confronted.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Certainly, those are sins He called out, but are they all 'traditions' codified in Rabbinic law (halakah)? I'm not so sure.

You may be right. I’m not sure I’m interested enough in the subject to research the codified traditions.

But if you wanna and show us what you found . . . ?

 

[IshChayil]

I doubt you'll find 10... maybe if we include Peter's reprimand for not associating with non-Jews in Acts 10 and a couple other inferred apostolic pointers.

I have no problem with tradition (we have a few of our own) as long as the tradition isn't portrayed as or made to be mandatory. As soon as that happens it has been elevated to a place of equal or superior status to what God requires. It is then that I feel obligated to throw a flag and cry 'foul.'

IMHO, the tribes had differences in observances as evidenced by 'sibboleth' 'shibboleth' dialectic differences. At that time one tribe was testing, judging and eliminating another tribe with a difference that was not commanded......(stuff removed till later)
Just my 2 shekels.

I greatly appreciate your involvement Pete, but this is the viewpoint we all know already, I'm a bit exasperated to read it yet again in this thread; it sounds a bit like a mantra to me whenever I hear it. (I won't engage the dialect issue of shibboleth as that's way off).

This is the point I'm trying to make people think about by starting this thread. I'm gently challenging the Hebrew Roots dogmatic opinion that in general Jewish tradition is bad, needs to somehow be challenged/ignored "just to show it doesn't matter, etc".
The point of the challenge is I don't think of the 40k traditions we can find even TEN in the basorot which Yeshua challenged. So far from the other posts I may have seen 1 additional tradition listed.
Others listed (as you correctly called out Pete) stuff that's just sinful or prideful but certainly not tradition.
I'll address one of those shortly.

Perhaps part of the problem some folks are having is that the current use of the word "tradition" is not specific enough. In the scope of scripture guys, we're talking about "ways to obey commandments of G-d which are passed down from our Torah-keeping ancestors".
Not things like, "I noticed grandma throws salt over her shoulder for good luck".

**** less related to my point in general but I wanted to take the time to address your issue of varying traditions I'll handle in another post to keep this terse****

 

[IshChayil]

Rather, I believe Abba delights in variety... trees, flowers, rocks, people, etc. Similarly, i think He enjoys variety of observance. As long as we stay inside the basic Torah guidelines, we are good and should enjoy our differences, not seek to conform everyone else to our preferred or percieved 'perfect' standard.

Yes, but you're neglecting the fact that we already have wide variances in our traditions within our tribes which have survived. Azhkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrachiy, Yeminiy, Falashan (sp?), Bukhari, and many more. This is a consistent, reasonable perspective applied even within mainstream Judaism. If one asks a Rabbi how to do xyz, he will ask of the familial tradition of the asker. As such, Sephardi (jews kicked out of Spain) have different ancestral traditions than German Jews have.

I hope folks will start to see what I'm calling the "Yeshua principle" in examining mitzvot cuts both ways.
I would say to many who will read this, "why do you with your disdain for your ancestors torah traditions and your attempts to do what is right in your own eyes violate the literal command of G-d to honor your parents!"

Anyone who thinks there aren't vast differences in observances among Jews has not really investigated Judaism.

*** edit ****
an example of how tolerance of varying Torah traditions is common is how we apply such traditions in my own Kehal. I'm of Azhkenazi decent (German Jewry) but Jews in the Philippines were Sephardi traders during Spanish rule. So, during Passover I don't impose the Azhkenazi traditional interpretations of what is allowed as it is super strict (no rice, beans, etc) but I suggest the Sephardic tradition which is more in keeping with the region and less strict. Also I'm not sure how Filipinos would survive without rice
Do you see where I'm coming from?

 

[IshChayil]

You may be right. I’m not sure I’m interested enough in the subject to research the codified traditions.

But if you wanna and show us what you found . . . ?

The point Verify, is that I don't think we will be able to even find a measly 10.
Listing general sins like pride and arrogance is quite the red herring.

 

[IshChayil]

I’ll take a stab at it for a few minutes.

Respect of persons
Blowing a trumpet when giving alms
Praying to be seen of men
Baptism without repentance (ok thats probably a John thing but . . .)
Money changing in the Temple
Teaching doctrines of men as commandments of God
Seeking the highest seat or room at a feast
Robbing widows
Goal tending. Making someone a twofold child of hell.
Divorce for every reason
Calling one Lord, Master, Rabbi, Father

Ok thats as much time as Im interested in spending on this. It’s all you guys. Have fun.

Pete already handled this but I want to chime in.
I think if you're fair you'll cede that many of the points you listed you maybe just wrote down very quickly without considering if this was something taught as a way to observe commandments right?

Still, I'll address each item you listed out of respect for you. Verify's examples of Torah keeping traditions are numbered marked in bold followed by my considerations.
1. Respect of persons
You'd be hard pressed to prove this as a generally bad principle as far as showing some level of respect. The only traditions regarding respecting persons have to do with Torah scholars. Often Yeshua is responding to a mixed crowd and the trouble makers in those situations happen to be the guys who know stuff. It's not like the illiterate fellows are gonna argue with Yeshua as well they can't even read let alone argue Torah. As such, Yeshua calls them out, "You Torah teachers [in this crowd, you are the one's I'm talking to...]". I think if Yeshua himself did not show the proper respect when he attended synagogue and read from the Haftarot that'd have been a thing. Anyway this term is covers a large range of behaviors. Our oral traditions teach against giving more honor to a rich man when he enters a congregation than a poor yet a Torah scholar receives honor because of the "Torah that is within him". People vie to have him stay at their home, etc. I know you can pick other examples which will run contrary to this as many of the Shamaite Pharisees were huge hypocrites (as the Talmud also records).

2. Blowing a trumpet when giving alms.
Not sure which halakhic interpretation says to do this. Orthodox today teach that the best giving is when there is absolute anonymity. In fact there is a hierarchy of "how to best do the mitzvah of tsedaqah". It starts on the lowest level with the receiver knows the giver is giving and the giver knows the receiver. It ends on its highest level where there is 2 way anonymity. Neither knows the other. A famous orthodox Rabbi today points out what a mistake it is when someone gives millions to a synagogue to request a plaque with their name as it reduces the force of their mitzvah.

3. Robbing widows
Note sure what you were thinking when you wrote this one down. Did you expect to find in the Mishnah tractate Yebamot x:y "So you shall steal from widows whenever possible, this is the way of our fathers..." Come now be serious.

4. Baptism without repentance (ok thats probably a John thing but . . .)
Your statement misrepresents what historical Baptism (Mikveh) as defined in the Torah was all about.
For those unaware of Torah reading they may be convinced by this but anyone who knows what a Mikveh is for (purifying someone who was impure: i.e. a woman's menstruation was over or a guy had a wet dream, etc). Not really sure in what way you expect a woman to "repent for her menstrual cycle ".
In short, this point is not really intellectually honest (though probably you just jotted these down in a hurry, I'm not calling you dishonest by any means).

5. Money changing in the Temple
There is not ancestral interpretation from Torah that this is OK. Seems Yeshua is correcting bad behavior, not something one's Fathers taught as a good way to observe a commandment. @Kevin have you ever seen anything in the shulchan arukh that talks about the need to money change in the beis miqdash? I'm less knowledgeable on this one so my rebuff of your statement is not a strong one.

6. Praying to be seen of men
There is not ancestral interpretive command that I'm aware of that teaches to do this.
There are, however, communal prayers incorporated for miqraot qodesh (Holy convocation) where the community must repent, etc. but I'm sure you'll agree this is not what Yeshua was addressing.

7. Teaching doctrines of men as commandments of God
This is simply a more generalized restatement of the examples I started the thread with. You can't take my specifics then generalize them and in turn list that generalization as yet another specific example.

8. Seeking the highest seat or room at a feast
Now I think you may have something here. This is a practice at modern synagogues where someone will "Buy a seat". Not all sects do it, but I've always hated it. I'm not sure that this really qualifies as a Torah-keeping tradition that's taught but I'll still cede this point because it may be listed somewhere and I just haven't seen it. @Kevin I'd be interested to hear your perspective on this one as I'm not sure if it qualifies or not. For now I'm willing to list this as a 4th example added to my list of 3.

9. Divorce for every reason
This one example proves the opposite of what you intend. Divorce for any reason is actually what the written Torah permits, as long as the woman is paid her Ketuba when receiving her gett. Yeshua Hamashiach actually alligns with the Hillelite Pharisaical tradition here which further restricts valid reasons for divorce; Yeshua adds to (as some might say) by adding hedges around the written command. In short, he sides with the Hillel tradition on this one against the Shamaite Pharisees.

10. Goal tending. Making someone a twofold child of hell.
I'm not familiar with this phrase "Goal tending", excuse my ignorance. the "making someone a child of hell", however, has to do with the Shamaite interpretations which were then laid on new converts, complete with their errant legal interpretations (overthrown by the Hillelite Pharisees after Yeshua's death and resurrection. So nobody today is teaching Shamaitism and loading up his errant interpretations on new converts. In point of fact, Jews don't even search for people to convert any more; Judaism is a non-proselytizing religion today. In short, Yeshua seems to be attacking a n0w-extinct Shamaite process (teaching them the wicked ways we enumerated in my points 1-3 in the original thread post and perhaps point 4 I'll add).

11. Calling one Lord, Master, Rabbi, Father
I'm not sure what to do with this one. This is actually a topic I've lacked clarity on for years so you may be right on it; if so in the spirit of the comment I think we have to add "pastor", "elder", "deacon" or any other honorarium. Maybe someone else can speak more to this issue. My take on it has been that it's about attitude (like many of the other issues you mentioned, people lacking wrong motivation when doing something). For example, I have a title thru ordination but I never use that title when I introduce myself, on a business card, etc. I have seen people pounding on their chest about titles bestowed by men before and I want to guard myself against that. I know I'm capable of going down that road if I'm not careful and I really don't want to become like that. At the same time, we live in the real world and I needed that title in order to open up certain doors and avenues of ministry, etc. So sometimes people will call me by that word and I don't shoot them down for it because I understand this teaching of the Messiah to be about attitude. "Don't call yourself a certain title so that you can belittle those around you or feel superior because you're not superior and you may not even know more". Does that make sense? In short it seems a restatement of "Don't try to rule over others as the Gentiles do". Maybe we will need to add this one to our list. I'd like to float it on the brain trust here first before I agree to that.

Summary
Most of the things you listed as examples of Torah-keeping traditions which Yeshua attacked, I've heard modern Orthodox Rabbis attack the same behaviors; that being the case it is in my estimation mostly as @PeteR summarized, not really Torah traditions under attack in your list.

שלום

 

[IshChayil]

Some of those like praying to be seen might just be a common temptation/practice. But much of the rest were traditions nonetheless.

Also:
all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments
depriving parents of support via Corban
swearing by the temple/alter
tithing herbs
ritual washing of dishes
paying honor to the prophets/righeous

Many of those came from Matthew 23, which alone had 9 or 10 condemned traditions; depending on how you want to count it, maybe more. And Christ was quite vitriolic in his condemnations too.

I'm out of time but I want to hit your list fast Rock.

I'll list your points 1 by 1.
1. all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments
Yes, I thought about this one but tefillin (phylacteries) and tallisot/tallitot (prayer covers) are available in all kinds of sizes so I'm not sure this really qualifies of an ancestral command. The dimensions of the box of the tefillin have restrictions but the thickness of the leather straps well heck, I own 3 pair of Tefillin:
A-My college tefillin with thick ass straps. I actually felt bad about this when they were delivered because of the exact point you are making. I had asked my old rabbi for small tefillin with small straps and I think he just interpretted that as "Ish is a poor college student, I'll subsidize these". Basically they were hundreds of dollars and I only had to pay $150.
B-My travel tefillin - very thin straps, ans small boxes. Perfect for carry-on on an airplane.
C-My super small emergency tefillin - These guys are mega tiny, from WW2 era. I don't use them but I bought them because they were used by an Israeli soldier in the war for independence and I wanted to preserve them, maybe pass them down to my son.

Nobody today really does this (that I've ever seen) "look how great I am with my big tefillin". It's usually a boolean, people either do it (lay tefillin) or they do not. In college I had an experience of putting them on the street with people watching but that was because there are Missionary type rabbis who look for Jews on big college campuses because they want them to do this commandment. The rabbi grabs you, "are you Jewish?", "Yes", "did you lay tefillin today?" "no", "let's do it!". It's a joyous, awesome, guerrilla mitzva happening, not to "be seen of men" and I love those guys. Alternatively, there are always people among us with the attitude who seek men's attention when supposedly doing something for Hashem. Seems to me more of an attack on this way of doing things among all peoples in general. Is that fair?

2. depriving parents of support via Corban
Yes, I had this in mind when I made my list. I think it's already covered in my list by the tradition they were doing which then nullified the command.

3. swearing by the temple/alter
This is a good point, but the Jewish tradition i.e. Talmud, teaches against this as well and against all forms of swearing by Hashem in general as extremely dangerous and foolish. So this was not a Torah-keeping tradition taught; it's a bad habit some people did.
***edit*** to be techincally accurate there is permitted swearing in court cases; the idea being because tradition teaches how foolish it is to swear the religious person going before a religous court should be too scared to swear realizing the danger and will just confess.

4. tithing herbs
This is a Torah written commandment (2nd ma'aser) which the Messiah did not negate. The point of his "you sift out the gnat and swallow the camel" is often missed on those who don't keep Torah. His point is that CAMEL is NOT KOSHER and you are eating that big thing; i.e. you are trying not to do a small sin and you end up doing a big sin. He goes on to teach that we should do the big commands and also "not leave the little things undone" i.e. don't eat gnats OR CAMELS. There's a reason he didn't say "sift out the gnat and swallow the cow". So keep on tithing the mint as commanded (little command) and ALSO don't violate a big one.

5. ritual washing of dishes
Purity washing ritual I already covered this in my initial post.

6. paying honor to the prophets/righeous
Not sure what Torah-keeping tradition you are referring to here. Can you expand on this please?

 

[IshChayil]

The problem with traditions (IMO) is that they cloud the issues. Many of them start as a way of providing a buffer for obedience (the line is here, so let's make a new line that's a bit closer). That restricts the freedom that is a gift of God, while also potentially creating legalism and inviting temptation. A great example was the first instance in the garden. Adam was told not to eat the fruit. Eve was told not to touch it. But touching it wasn't a sin. They could've touched it all day. The sin was in the eating. When Satan made it clear that the rule Eve was living by wasn't a real rule, it made it easier for her to move on to the eating.

Thanks for chiming in William.
Please note, the scope of the thread is: "can you find even 10 Torah-keeping traditions which the Messiah rebuffed"? Not a general "tradition is bad m'kay...m'kay"

The argument about Adam and Eve is a standard polemic made against hedging though really quite inappropriate for a site full of Patriarchs as the reasoning then goes like this: Adam may have told his wife not even to touch the fruit, therefore she sinned and ate it (because the devil was able to show her the hedge was incorrect and she interpreted the hedge as the actual command). No, she ate it because she wanted to sin against G-d. Anyway, that argument is usually used against hedging commandments in general not against honoring one's parents by keeping their commands on how to obey G-d's commands.

 

[Pacman]

@IshChayil I don’t want to derail your thread and I think it’s quite good. One question though if you don’t mind indulging my curiosity...

My understanding of the word “honor” in scripture is that it primarily means “value” and not necessarily “obey” so my application of this has always been that depending upon the relationship status with my father/ parents it may or may not include obedience... when I was living under my fathers roof and financial support I was expected to obey and live by his rules. And actually when I was still living at home I distinctly remember my father telling me that when I had my own house it would be my choice about how to do things, but until then I was expected to do things as he wished... so I do still value my father and mother and I respect their advice but ultimately I don’t obey every instruction that I was raised with...

Do you view this as an appropriate application of this? If not why?

Genuine question I’m not trying to be argumentative and feel free to split this off into another thread if you don’t want to address it here...

 

[PeteR]

I greatly appreciate your involvement Pete, but this is the viewpoint we all know already, I'm a bit exasperated to read it yet again in this thread; it sounds a bit like a mantra to me whenever I hear it. (I won't engage the dialect issue of shibboleth as that's way off).

This is the point I'm trying to make people think about by starting this thread. I'm gently challenging the Hebrew Roots dogmatic opinion that in general Jewish tradition is bad, needs to somehow be challenged/ignored "just to show it doesn't matter, etc".
The point of the challenge is I don't think of the 40k traditions we can find even TEN in the basorot which Yeshua challenged. So far from the other posts I may have seen 1 additional tradition listed.
Others listed (as you correctly called out Pete) stuff that's just sinful or prideful but certainly not tradition.
I'll address one of those shortly.

Perhaps part of the problem some folks are having is that the current use of the word "tradition" is not specific enough. In the scope of scripture guys, we're talking about "ways to obey commandments of G-d which are passed down from our Torah-keeping ancestors".
Not things like, "I noticed grandma throws salt over her shoulder for good luck".

**** less related to my point in general but I wanted to take the time to address your issue of varying traditions I'll handle in another post to keep this terse****

Thanks for your thoughts and I am sorry the position exasperates you. Seriously. That is instructive in how I converse with other Jewish brothers.

You already know but maybe don't take into account several things. First, the Hebrew roots movement is at most 50 years old with the real growth and acceleration in the last 20 years. We are very young and have hardly had time to learn to stand, nevermind walk or run. Expecting the baby that still burps on itself to develop a halakah is a bit ambitious.

Secondly, we have all come out of religious tradition. Tradition failed us and we know it. We are loath to grab traditions that we know nothing about. (And, those few who do very often end up barreling into Judaism headlong and deny Yeshua... I know several, personally.)

Third, Judaism's 40,000 traditions (your guestimate) developed over 2500 to 3000 years is a bit overwhelming. I feel certain in time, like maybe 200 years, we'll begin to have our own streams of thought that coalesce into 'traditions' but even then, having learned what I learned, I pray they not become binding.

I love and enjoy hanging with and learning from my Jewish brothers, particularly the ones who know Yeshua. It is rich communion when we can interact. But, I don't want to be Jewish. I am fully convinced that I am from the northern kingdom and believe I not only know which tribe, but the very region. It is where I am drawn every time I go to Israel... to fully walk in that, my full reliance is on the Master and learning/drinking directly from the Word.

Be not offended if I choose not to take on Jewish tradition or if I chide others entering this walk not to. It is bot devaluing you or Jewish tradition. Rather, it is recognizing that the Father has more for the whole house of Israel and we need to pursue Him until the Mashiach comes and gives clear direction.

A possible exception is, after I see a broad swath of Judaism boldly proclaiming Yeshua as the Messiah, then I will know they have reevaluated the minefield of tradition and can guide me through it without laying burdens I am not supposed to bear.

I love you, brother.

שלום

 

[IshChayil]

@IshChayil I don’t want to derail your thread and I think it’s quite good. One question though if you don’t mind indulging my curiosity...

My understanding of the word “honor” in scripture is that it primarily means “value” and not necessarily “obey” so my application of this has always been that depending upon the relationship status with my father/ parents it may or may not include obedience... when I was living under my fathers roof and financial support I was expected to obey and live by his rules. And actually when I was still living at home I distinctly remember my father telling me that when I had my own house it would be my choice about how to do things, but until then I was expected to do things as he wished... so I do still value my father and mother and I respect their advice but ultimately I don’t obey every instruction that I was raised with...

Do you view this as an appropriate application of this? If not why?

Genuine question I’m not trying to be argumentative and feel free to split this off into another thread if you don’t want to address it here...

I think your comment is right on subject Pacman.
So in Hebrew, the word which we usually translate "to honor" is כבד kibbeyd which in a very literal sense means "make heavy/weighty". This is illuminated a bit when we see that Ya'aqov is told by G-d "מקללך אאור" m'qol'lekha a'or usually translated "those who curse you I will curse" but if we look at the word "those who curse you" it literally means "those who belittle you/treat you lightly". This is how I personally translate this statement b/c Hashem intentionally uses 2 different words you can see the Hebrew is quite different than saying in English "those who curse you I will curse". This is of course the extreme danger that comes with unjustly maligning Ya'aqov Avinu as calling someone a "liar,deceiver,cheat" is much closer to belittling than it is to cursing.
So I bring this up because it's useful when understanding a word to at times investigate it's opposite.
So the question is "how does one make another person weighty?"

I would also like to remind you that the Torah does not only command to "make your father and mother weighty" but it also commands as we saw in last week's torah portion, Q'doshim, "you shall fear/revere your mother and father". So there is a principle in Torah interpretation which says mitzvah gereret mitzvah something like "commandment clarifies commandment". So we take these direct commandments which relate to our mothers and fathers: make them weighty and fear/revere them.
The assumption is that our fathers are righteous torah keepers and teaching us how to keep those commands. In this case, yes, even when we are old we shall not depart from their instruction as informed by Mishlei (Proverbs) "My son do not depart from my discipline or the Torah of your mother".

So how do we make our fathers and mothers (multiple generations) weighty? The only way they have any weight (i.e. relevance) to us at all is by keeping their instructions (aside from the obvious passing of genes to us).
In your case, your father seems to have actually released you from following all of his instructions so that's a bit trickier. This is actually perfect because it really frees you to obey your adopted fathers' instructions.

To be certain there is more involved in making someone weighty than just doing Torah commands the way they taught you to do them. We must defend our ancestors if they are unfairly maligned, defending their honor as it were. There is an innate sense of this in children who will fight if 1 child maligns another child's parent, grandparent, etc. But surely what they say matters and is deeply considered when we make them weighty even if in the end we decide to not follow 100% in their ways. My concern is that the process of even considering what our fathers have taught is so quickly cast by the wayside without so much even considering how generations have honored those before them in keeping the commands in such and such a way. That's not making them weighty in any real sense. Sorry if I rambled a bit, many distractions right now (upset baby for one whho wants his daddy [he darned well better lay tefillin the way I'll teach him and not say "oh that's just a metaphor dad!"]

 

[IshChayil]

Thanks for your thoughts and I am sorry the position exasperates you. Seriously. That is instructive in how I converse with other Jewish brothers.

You already know but maybe don't take into account several things. First, the Hebrew roots movement is at most 50 years old with the real growth and acceleration in the last 20 years. We are very young and have hardly had time to learn to stand, nevermind walk or run. Expecting the baby that still burps on itself to develop a halakah is a bit ambitious.

Secondly, we have all come out of religious tradition. Tradition failed us and we know it. We are loath to grab traditions that we know nothing about. (And, those few who do very often end up barreling into Judaism headlong and deny Yeshua... I know several, personally.)

Third, Judaism's 40,000 traditions (your guestimate) developed over 2500 to 3000 years is a bit overwhelming. I feel certain in time, like maybe 200 years, we'll begin to have our own streams of thought that coalesce into 'traditions' but even then, having learned what I learned, I pray they not become binding.

I love and enjoy hanging with and learning from my Jewish brothers, particularly the ones who know Yeshua. It is rich communion when we can interact. But, I don't want to be Jewish. I am fully convinced that I am from the northern kingdom and believe I not only know which tribe, but the very region. It is where I am drawn every time I go to Israel... to fully walk in that, my full reliance is on the Master and learning/drinking directly from the Word.

Be not offended if I choose not to take on Jewish tradition or if I chide others entering this walk not to. It is bot devaluing you or Jewish tradition. Rather, it is recognizing that the Father has more for the whole house of Israel and we need to pursue Him until the Mashiach comes and gives clear direction.

A possible exception is, after I see a broad swath of Judaism boldly proclaiming Yeshua as the Messiah, then I will know they have reevaluated the minefield of tradition and can guide me through it without laying burdens I am not supposed to bear.

I love you, brother.

שלום

Hey Pete,
the 40k traditions is a number I got from a Hebrew Roots teacher, Michael Rude, who selectively attacks most tradition while keeping a handful himself (ie. blessing bread and wine) and keeping his pet alleged Karaite who doesn't believe in Yeshua at his side to take swipes at Jews whenever he can.
Since he's one of the most anti-Messianic teachers out there, I just adopted his claim; likely it's false but that doesn't hurt my position.

The thing is brother, even if you are from another tribe it's not just Judah that agrees with our traditions; it's the Levites as well and they were dispersed among all the tribes; heck that may even be one of the reasons Hashem did that so we'd have a certain continuity between the tribes for observances. Also we have Benjamin and Simeon small as they are assimilated into the Jews of the diaspora. Granted, 8% are Levi and most of the rest are Judah still those other tribes are represented. Now Menasheh has been found and they have agreed to follow Judah as the leader, incorporating our ways into their worship as they are brought back to the land.
Perhaps this is an additional meaning to the scepter shall not pass from Judah. You may very well be from a Northern tribe but Judah is in charge and the Levites and the Cohanim are in full agreement so respectfully I'd challenge your thought process on that. Especially since your tribes' distinctive ways are lost and unknown to us so in short we're your next of kin.
Maybe your tribe made some horrible mistakes with their traditions and that's even why Hashem allowed those traditions to be lost.
Either way, it's not a good excuse to say "I choose no tradition in place of those who have kept Torah for millenium because my distinct flavor of tradition is lost ... oh and those guys didn't accept Yeshua because G-d said they wouldn't so that the goyim can get saved, but still they didn't!".

Hebrew roots is not 50 years old. Hebrew Roots came out of the modern Messianic movement, in large part replacing the Jewish leadership with newbies hence the plethera of leaders.
Now I've been amazed by the movement and I've always suspected that anyone who is drawn to Torah probably has some Jewish ancestor they are unaware of. That jives quite well with what you shared so I'm not surprised.
I hope you understand the thrust of concern. You mentioned development of "new halakhah" etc. but again, "the scepter shall not pass from Judah".
We're here to help. You have a nice curious nature about you which is refreshing but not the norm. I often hear from Hebrew roots friends, and people I minister with sometimes, "the anti-Torah Christians won't provoke Jews to jealousy, who'd be jealous of defiling the Sabbath?!" or other rhetoric like that. I'm sympathetic to the argument but I'd say, "people keeping Torah in ways that would seem silly to Jews won't provoke them to jealousy any more than those who don't keep Torah at all." Choosing different calendars than all the Jews worldwide keep, cooking on Sabbath, paying Tithes on the Sabbath day, writing off serious commandments which are in Yeshua's list as "most important" (i.e. tefillin) as just a metaphor etc... that's not gonna provoke anybody to jealousy for sure.

A possible exception is, after I see a broad swath of Judaism boldly proclaiming Yeshua as the Messiah, then I will know they have reevaluated the minefield of tradition and can guide me through it without laying burdens I am not supposed to bear.

Again, calling righteous tradition and honoring of our fathers, and apparently yours by the revelation you shared a "minefield of tradition" reveals your heavy bias against the native olive tree.
Maybe your tribe isn't around for a reason? You seem sincere so perhaps you could make this change for me (since you love me):
Stop using loaded words which make Jewish tradition seem dangerous to young minds and others (i.e. minefield).
Especially since you have been unable to come up with even 10 which Yeshua stopped living by and taught others to stop living by and we have the continuity of Rav Shaul who after believing in Yeshua already "lived by the traditions".
Don't worry about the minefield of Jewish traditions teaching how to keep Torah, but maybe worry about the minefield of walking after our own ways ... the way we walk is "halakhah", that's the meaning of that word I'm sure you know...

*** I reread what I wrote, I hope you'll receive it in the spirit it is intended. I want to be helpful and challenge this wreckless way of thinking that Jewish tradition is somehow dangerous. I enjoy many of your posts Pete, please keep that in mind ****