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Early Church Father's who don't condemn Polygany

yoderfamily

yoderfamily

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So I reached out to the Pastor who kicked me out of the ministerial alliance. And started a dialogue. His text.

Fact check:
Not my interpretation.
Polygamy has never been a tenant of the Christian faith, nor did any of the early Church fathers teach it. It is diametrically opposed to any of their teaching. Therefore, it is not a denominational teaching. St. Augustine, Athanasius, St. Francis of Assisi, St. John of the Cross, Fenelon, Guyon, George Fox, Edwards, Whitfield, Wesley, Matthew Henry, Clarke, Spurgeon, Finney, all of these and more have never taught Polygamy. All from various backgrounds but all in agreement that God's design for marriage was one man with one woman for a lifetime or until death.
Thus, a tenant of the Christian faith not a denominational matter at all.

Who can help me on resources
 
Tenants of the Christian faith are based on the rightly interpreted Holy Scriptures; not the consensus/majority opinion of men.

Indeed a marriage comprises exactly one man and one woman, but biblical polygamy (polygyny) implies the man has a separate and simultaneous "one man, one woman" marriage with each wife. This is a crucial distinction to make; the parties to a marriage, and the number of contemporaneous marriages that a man is permitted to have.

Knowing that "sin is the transgression of the law" (1Jo 3:4), and that "where no law is, there is no transgression." (Rom 4:15), and finding no law forbidding a man from having more than one marriage/wife at a time, I think we can say that, by definition; polygyny is not a sin. Also, "I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7). So, I think we don't know something to be a sin unless God gave a law against it (ex; "Thou shalt not").

Contrast that with how it is for a woman having multiple husbands; "if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress" (Rom 7:3). Men and women are fundamentally different, with different roles, therefore different laws apply to each.

We know that the patriarch Abraham fathered a child (Ishmael) with Hagar while his wife Sarah liveth, and after his passing God testified of him saying "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." (Gen 26:5). Straight from the mouth of God; polygyny is lawful, and statutorily permitted (comp Rom 7:3).

We know that King "Joash did that which was right in the sight of the LORD all the days of Jehoiada the priest. And Jehoiada took for him two wives" (2Ch 24:2-3). The divinely inspired narrator informs us that the king had two wives, and simultaneously did that which was right in the sight of the LORD. Polygyny is not only lawful, but it is also *right* in the sight of the LORD.

And some verses to cogitate on...
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it" (Deu 4:2).
"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Mat 15:9)
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Pro 14:12)
"Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes" (Isa 5:21)
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil" (Isa 5:20)
 
1 Samuel 2:8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

Thats all it took for me. Just needed God to say it was ok to have multiple wives but he did one better and said he would have given more wives had it not been enough. With that does it really matter what the early church fathers taught? Thats what I would ask the pastor.
 
@yoderfamily I don't have time right now, but there are holes in that pastor's list... off the top of my head, he sings hymns by children of polygynists in his church. And, a third of the older famous hymn tunes are by Rev. Martin Madan, famed defender if polygyny. He was an evangelist in Englad. Traveled with Wesley.

@Verifyveritas76 may have better references among the church 'fathers.'

Per @eye4them , you want to make him try to prove his position from Scripture. Do it by asking questions....
 
I agree with @PeterR, and I would add that searching for posts started by @Verifyveritas76 might provide fruit for you.
 
I know St. Augustine did not condemn Polygany. Just don't know where to find that.

I would like to find enough to shake him out of his security. Get him to dig into the maybe.
 
Well said @eye4them


Tertulian in “on monogamy” states something to the effect that monogamy only was a new revelation of the Holy Spirit that was given in his time and not given to the Apostles. He also states many Christians during his time were polygynists. He was against it but he no Scriptural argument against, just a claim of direct revelation in his own time.

I have heard, although i have not verified it, that Augustine said something to the effect that they had made polygamy a sin in his lifetime. Sorry, I don’t have the time to dig up the direct quotes, but i hope it helps you out.
 
yoderfamily said:
So I reached out to the Pastor who kicked me out of the ministerial alliance. And started a dialogue. His text.

Fact check:
Not my interpretation.
Polygamy has never been a tenant of the Christian faith, nor did any of the early Church fathers teach it. It is diametrically opposed to any of their teaching. Therefore, it is not a denominational teaching. St. Augustine, Athanasius, St. Francis of Assisi, St. John of the Cross, Fenelon, Guyon, George Fox, Edwards, Whitfield, Wesley, Matthew Henry, Clarke, Spurgeon, Finney, all of these and more have never taught Polygamy. All from various backgrounds but all in agreement that God's design for marriage was one man with one woman for a lifetime or until death.
Thus, a tenant of the Christian faith not a denominational matter at all.

Who can help me on resources
Click to expand...

1. Why does he define 'the Christian faith' by what a subset of Christian teachers believed and not the scriptures? What happened to sola scriptura?

2. His claim isn't true:
  • Augustine refused to call polygamy a sin, simply saying it was wrong for them in their culture.
  • Both Clement of Alexandria and John Chrysystom taught that Paul in 1 Cor 7:9 was speaking of polygamy; this is notable as no where else in the NT is polygamy condemned (which would contradict the OT).
  • Tertullian, the father of Latin Theology, acknowledges that neither Christ nor the Apostles condemned polygamy in his treatise On Monogamy. But he argued that monogamy was a new teaching from the Holy Spirit in his day. He also lamented the popes refusal to condemn polygamy.
3. The NT scriptures, our rule of faith, does not condemn polygamy. Instead it teaches (Romans) that the law informs us what is sin (and the OT never called polygamy sin either, but rather regulated it). On the other hand, the NT does condemn serial monogamy (Matthew 19:9) and those who prohibit of polygmay (1 Timothy 4:1-3). Prohibiting polygamy is a doctrine of demons, not of Christianity.

I got information in #2 from the master threads on early church fathers comments about polygamy; which can be found here and here. If you're going to get in a quote war, best to familiarize yourself with the texts. But long story short, monogamy came from Greek influence, not scripture.
 
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https://www.righteouswarriors.com/questions/q27.html
"Jacob, the son of Isaac is charged with having committed a great crime because he had four wives. But there is no ground for a criminal accusation: for a plurality of wives was no crime when it was the custom; and it is a crime now because it is no longer the custom. There are sins against nature, and sins against custom, and sins against the laws. In which, then, of these senses did Jacob sin in having a plurality of wives?...The only reason of its being a crime now to do this is because custom and the laws forbid it." - St. Augustine (from "A Selected Library of Nicene and Post-Nicine Fathers of the Christian Church", Philip Schaff, Vol III, pg. 289)

"Now indeed in our time, and in keeping with Roman custom, it is no longer allowed to take another wife, so as to have more than one wife living" - St. Augustine (from "A Selected Library of Nicene and Post-Nicine Fathers of the Christian Church", Philip Schaff, Vol III, pg. 428

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https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Polygamy
Saint Augustine saw a conflict with Old Testament polygamy, and wrote about it in The Good of Marriage (chapter 15, paragraph 17), where he stated that though it "was lawful among the ancient fathers: whether it be lawful now also, I would not hastily pronounce. For there is not now necessity of begetting children, as there then was, when, even when wives bear children, it was allowed, in order to a more numerous posterity, to marry other wives in addition, which now is certainly not lawful." He declined to judge the patriarchs, but did not deduce from their practice the ongoing acceptability of polygamy. In another place, he wrote, "Now indeed in our time, and in keeping with Roman custom, it is no longer allowed to take another wife, so as to have more than one wife living [emphasis added]."
 
Do not let him get away with making a non-biblical argument. Force him to show you from the Scriptures, because the church fathers may have some things that can help us, but their writings are simply those of men and are not divinely inspired Scripture.
 
rockfox said:
1. Why does he define 'the Christian faith' by what a subset of Christian teachers believed and not the scriptures? What happened to solo scriptura?

2. His claim isn't true:
  • Augustine refused to call polygamy a sin, simply saying it was wrong for them in their culture.
  • Both Clement of Alexandria and John Chrysystom taught that Paul in 1 Cor 7:9 was speaking of polygamy; this is notable as no where else in the NT is polygamy condemned (which would contradict the OT).
  • Tertullian, the father of Latin Theology, acknowledges that neither Christ nor the Apostles condemned polygamy in his treatise On Monogamy. But he argued that monogamy was a new teaching from the Holy Spirit in his day. He also lamented the popes refusal to condemn polygamy.
3. The NT scriptures, our rule of faith, does not condemn polygamy. Instead it teaches (Romans) that the law informs us what is sin (and the OT never called polygamy sin either, but rather regulated it). On the other hand, the NT does condemn serial monogamy (Matthew 19:9) and those who prohibit of polygmay (1 Timothy 4:1-3). Prohibiting polygamy is a doctrine of demons, not of Christianity.

I got information in #2 from the master threads on early church fathers comments about polygamy; which can be found here and here. If you're going to get in a quote war, best to familiarize yourself with the texts. But long story short, monogamy came from Greek influence, not scripture.
Click to expand...
Excellent post!! Do you mean sola scriptura?
 
yoderfamily said:
Thus, a tenant of the Christian faith not a denominational matter at all.
Click to expand...

In addition to Tertullian mentioning a group that practiced polygamy, here I document that the Ethiopian church practiced polygamy as late as the 11th century. So that's a 1000 years of Christian polygamy.

I believe some of the books that discuss the history of this issue also discuss evidences of early christians practicing poly. The Jews, being polygamous, means that many early Christian converts were likely polygamous. This is notable because if the Christian church was monogamous, this would have been an issue and something the scriptures would have mentioned. Yet they don't. Well they do actually, limiting an elder to those with only 1 wife. But for the laity, they have no such restriction.

Asforme&myhouse said:
Excellent post!! Do you mean sola scriptura?
Click to expand...

Fixed. Thanks.

eye4them said:
"Now indeed in our time, and in keeping with Roman custom, it is no longer allowed to take another wife, so as to have more than one wife living" - St. Augustine (from "A Selected Library of Nicene and Post-Nicine Fathers of the Christian Church", Philip Schaff, Vol III, pg. 428
Click to expand...

That's a damning quote, right up there with Tertullian; Augustine makes it plain and clear where monogamy came from, and it wasn't scripture but pagan social norms. Might as well lead with that one.
 
You could also make the point that polygamy is not a tenant of the Roman Catholic christian faith, as it was Catholicism that outlawed it, along with priests being eligible for marriage.

The same group that says he cant be married are the ones that outlawed polygamy.
 
Also the one man one woman argument from Matthew is more accurately translated as the beginning/first of the family/flesh instead of one flesh. It reads in the Greek, eis mia sarx, compare to the mention of when Christ rose from the dead on the eis mia sabbaton. The beginning of the family compared to the beginning of the week. The first of flesh, versus the first of seven. This is (I believe) a similar reference to a familial phrase used in the Old Testament for the firstborn, the beginning of strength, or first of strength. Just as the firstborn was the beginning of strength, the wife of his youth was the beginning of family or flesh.

A simple statement that the presence of a first day of the week does not exclude the other six, but rather identifies its position in the sequence. It’s kind of impossible to begin a family without the first wife. Same goes for the week.
 
With reference to Israel and Judah, in Jer. 31:31-32, "...I was a husband to them says the Lord." Tell the man to read his Bible and not to base his faith on the words of men. Shalom
 
Here is a page that has the full quote from Augustine concerning "in keeping with Roman custom...".

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1309.htm
"And yet it is not allowed; and now indeed in our times, and after the usage of Rome, neither to marry in addition, so as to have more than one wife living"

The topic he is discussing is more marriage and adultery than polygyny, but I think the plain anti-poly meaning is there in the original, so I think one can use this quote honestly.
 
yoderfamily said:
All from various backgrounds but all in agreement that God's design for marriage was one man with one woman for a lifetime or until death.
Click to expand...

I like to point out right away the polygamists agree with the above. Polygamists also believe that marriage is between one woman and one man for a lifetime, or until death. The wives are not married to each other, otherwise this would be group marriage not polygamy. In practical terms this means if David dies his wives all can marry other men. They have no obligation to stay together. They are not married to each other.

The only different is that polygamist that men can have more than one marital relationship. Romans 7:2 and 1 Cor 7:39 prevent women from having more than one husband, and it is significant that these verses apply to wives and there are no corresponding similar verses for men.

So the classic Christian position on marriage as he states above is agreed to by Christian polygamists.

Martin Luther was famously a supporter of polygamy, so it is not a far fetched idea.

You might find more information or links here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy_in_Christianity
 
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