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Faith vs Obedience
- Thread starter steve
- Start date
Not to mention that lack of works is generally a reflection of insufficient faith.
The works don't produce salvation, but if one's faith has any depth, it's only natural that one's behavior will reflect the gratitude one has to feel to one's Creator for not only salvation but the privilege of being part of His creation.
The works don't produce salvation, but if one's faith has any depth, it's only natural that one's behavior will reflect the gratitude one has to feel to one's Creator for not only salvation but the privilege of being part of His creation.
I would go a step further and say that obedience most likely will lead you to faith.
I disagree. On another site someone mentioned Billy Graham talking about how faith and faith alone is what truly matters. He said that works are a fruit of faith but that some religions and some religious people mistakenly think they're a requirement of salvation. He said that if a man was to find himself on a desert island and then come to Christ and then to live out his life and die on that island without ever doing any works wouldn't he be saved? Then works are not a requirement of salvation, but instead they are something people want to do when they are saved.
Yes, faith and faith alone saves; most assuredly. But the faith that saves is not alone; is produces good fruit. That's what James wrote his epistle about; he wrote saying, that faith without works is dead. A living faith is a fruitful faith. Shalom.
I would go a step further and say that regeneration will lead to both faith and obedience, as the Lord said to Nicodemus in John 3.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”" John 3(6-8) esv
The Holy Spirit causes us to be born again, and the evidence that this has happened is both faith and obedience.
It is a fascinating thing. Faith produces obedience, and obedience also causes our faith to grow. Yet in the final analysis, salvation is the gift of God.
Philippians 2:12 KJV Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Proverbs 28:18 KJV Whoso walketh uprightly shall be saved: but he that is perverse in his ways shall fall at once.
If works are not a "requirement of salvation", then why do we need to....
Matthew 24:13 KJV But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
and
Philippians 2:12 KJV Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
AMEN!!
Not just any works but GOOD works are the fruit of salvation.
The instructions from Paul to the Philippians are to those who are already "in Christ"; i.e. redeemed saints. Phil. 1:1, Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi.
Those already redeemed ought to be living a life consistent with their union "in Christ". Shalom
To @Edward and all others here, I have an acknowledgment to make: I did note when I read the original post from @steve that this was posted in the Hebrew Roots section, and my comment wasn't intended to stir up any trouble; at the moment I wrote it, in fact, I thought I was just being supportive of the general proposition, but I see now that I've created some polarization. That wasn't my intention, and I want to emphasize that it simply is not my place to take sides in any intra-Hebrew-Roots discussions, nor do I have one ounce of desire to challenge the Hebrew Roots mindset. You are my brothers, but this is your playground, and it simply isn't my place to walk into your playground and stir up trouble.
I pray you will all forgive me for stepping out of line.
Be well, my brothers in Christ.
@frederick I am NOT trying to take a cheap shot so please don't take this personally.
But that's a no-brainer as bad works won't "inherit the kingdom of God".
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Also, I'm not sure you noticed the BIBLE verses I put up?
Me personally, I did not take your comment as trying to "stir up any trouble;".
You're nor stirring up trouble. The 'works v faith' debate has been going on for 2000 years. It won't be settled here..
Acknowledgment and pursuit of Torah, by definition, causes us to be percieved as, if not actually, heavy leaners toward works as evidence of salvation/belonging to Yah's people.
Love ya, bro!
As far as my understanding goes, no one needs to wear a yellow star when posting/responding in this particular section.
The sole reason that I put this in the Messianic area was because I felt that someone could easily interpret “obedience” as obeying the OT and restarting the same old worn out fight.
I appreciate EVERYONE’S contributions to this discussion. We see things nuanced somewhat differently, but we ALL see a responsibility towards our Savior and his Father.
Iron sharpens iron, as long as we don’t start a forest fire with the sparks.
ps. I guess that I should have hit the meat button after all.
Not taken personally at all. My point is that good is defined by God and those works (e.g. plural marriage) are consistent with His attributes. Those who have experienced the new birth will begin to demonstrate His life in them. The change will begin from within, like the spring growth that we see on a plant, and the fruit will be Spirit produced. By their fruits you will know them.
I’m not sure what you are specifically referring to, but I’m assuming that all you can do is request an explanation.