• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Fool Me Once, Shame On Me. Fool Me Twice.....

Doc

Doc

Member
Real Person
I thought I would start this topic to deal with a seldom talked about issue here within our growing community:

courting fraud

It is an issue that impacts both single people searching for companions (such as myself), and marriage partners looking to add to their current family situation.

I will be brave and step out here and confess that I have been a victim of courting fraud. More than a year ago I met someone online through a Christian dating site. Through a series of conversations, I discovered that she was open to the concept of plural marriage, and we had lengthy discussions concerning the subject.

She seemed sincere. She was knowledgeable about the Bible and Christian subjects in general. She seemed genuine in her faith. She had a testimony of faith that seemed legitimate.

But it was all fake. Every bit of it. To this day, looking back, I am not even sure who she was, or if she was even a woman. Sigh.

Apparently this person was able through online searches and public information to create a profile that would be an enticement. I fell for it, hook, line and sinker. When I discovered the truth, my heart was broken.

I wish that I could say that my case was unique, but after speaking with several families and individuals, I have discovered that I am not the only one to be fooled. I think what happens is that at times we are searching so hard to find that 'perfect match' that when someone comes along even generally meeting some of those qualities, we seem to suspend belief and sometimes just plain old common sense. We WANT it to be right, we BELIEVE it to be right, and then we are shocked to discover we have been fooled.

Believe me, I understand how difficult it is. For me as a single person, finding a companion that is open to just the CONCEPT of plural marriage severely limits the dating pool. In fact, I think it is easier for families to add a companion than for a single person to find another single person open to the concept. Maybe it is because the married man has already established that he is good marriage material by the fact that he is married! But that is another discussion......

I would like to hear from men and women, married and single about your experiences related to this subject. What were the warning signs for you? Did you get out before it was too late? If you had to do it again, what would you do differently? How do you prepare for the next courtship experience?

Thanks

Doc
 
I am glad that you realise now that you were not alone and that it has happened to many, many people! Whether through a desire to gain money from people or sheer maliciousness (some people are compassionate enough to infer that they must be sad and lonely, hence the deception but I am not so forgiving) some people create online personalities to fool unsuspecting people. I know some lovely people who have been fooled by them and they are crushed by the experience, it is awful.

All I can advise to people is not to commit anything, whether that would be feelings or finances, until you meet them or at the very least see them in chat, so you know that you are at least speaking to who you think you are.
This might not stop people from misrepresenting themselves anyway, I was talked to a couple (in your home State actually Doc) who claimed they were stable, after some time though they showed themselves to be highly unstable, mentally, materially and emotionally (the husband was prone to rages and the wife was medicated with anti's up to her eyeballs..) You really have to be SO careful on the internet.

Bels
x
 
Let me kick it off with a quote by one of my historical heroes, Ronald Reagan:

"Trust, but verify."

I want to be able to trust, and in the past, I have been willing to extend that trust without having to worry so much about verification. However, in this world today, the line of trust is much shorter than it used to be.

Things I have learned from courting fraud:

1. Never, never, never send money to anyone you have never met in person. Never. I know you will say, "I would never do that." I used to say that, too. I have the Western Union receipts to show you what 'never' looks like. When it happens to you, just remember that Doc told you "NEVER"!

2. Automatic red flag if they are hesitant to send a updated picture OR talk to you on a LIVE web cam. Even then, tho, a picture can be fake AND a live web cam can be faked....how do I know? I actually chatted with what I thought was a live web cam with a girl I was courting online. After my fraud was done, I actually was able to find a DUPLICATE video online of the girl. I am telling you, these people are good.

3. Another red flag is if they keep changing dates to meet you in person. "My child got sick, and I couldn't call", "My car broke down, and I had to deal with that", etc. Now, I realize that things do happen. My kids have been sick. My car has broken down. But if this happens several times, put the ball in their court: make them come to you. If they can't because of $$$, offer to buy them a plane or bus ticket (NEVER SEND MONEY: SEE RULE ONE). Make sure to purchase the kind that are transferable if they are a no-show, that way you can always use the ticket for yourself or to give to someone who could really use it.

4. If you decide to go and meet them, my advice is,"Don't go alone". If you are married, take your spouse. If you are single, take a friend. You can explain it to them that it is as much for their protection as for yours. For the first time, always meet in a public location, such as a restaurant, coffee shop, or maybe a park.....NEVER at a private address or a hotel. Trust me on this....two people on BF have been burned on this one. If everything goes well that first time, you can always have some alone time later. If you are married, and they are hesitant to meet your current wife on your first outing, then just keep on truckin'.

5. The phone. Red flag if they are hesitant to talk to you (or your spouse) on the phone. This seems like a no-brainer, but sometimes potentials will chat up a storm on Yahoo or AIM, but when you move to talking on the phone, suddenly they get shy. Watch out!

6. The phone part 2. Don't be fooled by the phone. Unless you have met them in person, you really know very little about them. Be wary to give out too many personal details. Control your phone conversation....especially guys: do not fall into the sex chat trap....it is an easy snare to fall in to. If this person is that important to your life in the future, guess what? The sex can wait. Sex is for marriage, and unless you BOTH have a commitment, run from this trap. Your heart will be broken, my friend. More importantly, do not fall in love over the phone....trust me on this one, too.

7. Beware of crisis: Your potential calls/IMs you, "I need $500 today or I will be evicted." SEE RULE NUMBER ONE.

8. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. I know this may be a bit cynical, but it is based on experience.

9. Don't get in a hurry. I know that whenever you are in a new relationship, you want to see things proceed, and you want things to happen. SLOW DOWN! Think about your situation. Talk to somebody about this new person in your life, and have them ask you hard questions. "I know what I am doing!" Yeah, right. My friend, when you are in a new relationship, you are not thinking clearly. Chemicals are being released in your system that suspend belief. Do you remember being a teenager in love? Our bodies may be older, but we deal with these emotions the same way. Take it slow. If you lose that person by taking it slow, then so be it.

10. If you are in Florida, and your potential is in Seattle, be realistic: are you REALLY going to be able to maintain a long-distance relationship using chat and phone, and be willing to go broke to see someone for a date? International relationships are even more tricky: you need to consider things like visas, extended family, the cost of caring for a potential in another country, etc. That is not to say that these can't work, but I think in all honesty you need to ask some very hard questions of how much of your time, energy and financial resources you are willing to give up to keep the relationship.

11. Ask questions. Lots of questions. Lots and lots of questions. Bunches of them.

These are just a few things I have learned. Any others?
 
I never seem to get past rule 2. I heartily agree with it! I'm curious how do they fake a cam chat? Your going to have to explain that one to me! So I can defend against it.
 
Just to make sure I understand, all it can do is prerecorded msg? It's not virtual interactive where it can modify/improv a users conversation? So as long as I derail the conversation (which I'm a pro at) The prerecorded movie will not be effective? It's only if the "video" was leading the conversation and nothing specific and unexpected occurred?
 
Thx, Doc. And Bella. Sorry for your bad experiences, ut appreciative of the good advice that came from them.
 
Okay so I as a single woman found this insightful as well. Let me explain something. I will not name any names however I was chatting to someone for a little over a week. He and I were chatting back and forth and even on the phone.He assumed that because we were talking that I could not talk to any others and that we were going to get together. Okay a woman does have the right to change her mind and also if there is no contract made she is not under any obligation to be committed to talking to one person only. I found it rather disheartening that he would assume that I would just drop everything to come live with him with no form of commitment and then when I tell him no,he wants to chew me out and tell me I need a monogomous relationship not plural marriage because I am insecure. I was really taken a back by that seeing as how he did not know me in person to make that kind of judgement.

I just feel like hey I do have the choice to say no to any situation that I feel is not for me.Just how I feel and pray that this dosen't offend anyone as this was not my intention.
Liz
 
Dear Liz,

I think you are totally correct! It is appalling to me that a man who is looking for another wife believes he has the right to demand essentially engagement "rights" to a woman he barely knows. In this day and age of the internet you can easily be told lies (as this thread talks about) by anyone. I am not saying that there are not well meaning people out there on the internet but there are, unfortunately, those who are not. But even if this man was sincere in his desire to make you a wife and care for you, he was wrong to believe that he had any rights over you after just talking on the phone and internet.

What a foolish woman you would have been to let him have authority over you when you have not even been in his presence!! Adding another wife to the family TAKES TIME and LOTS OF IT! How in the world can you find out if you fit into the family if you don't spend time with the family? A single lady MUST see a potential husband with his family to find out if he is actually a good husband and father. She must observe this not for a week but for many, many months. She must develop a relationship with the other wife or wives, also. All of this TAKES TIME. In my opinion, any man who commits himself to a lady without building these relationships first is a foolish man! Plural marriage is hard enough in a society that does not accept us why in the world would you want to start it off with even more difficulties??

I do understand that for some families that God has made things really clear about who is to join their family. I would still say that, even for these families, taking time to go slow and build a solid foundation between the family and the potiental wife is still a very wise thing to do. If it is truly ordained from God then she is not going anywhere and the relationships can be built in a less stressful way than her thrown into the family and expected to "work it out" as you go.

I know that the entire BF's board is very concerned about protecting the single woman God has brought to this site. We believe that every single lady looking to join a family should have a mentor or a person to be accountable to regarding potential families that she is talking with. It is for her protection and the families as well. Liz, I would encourage you to find such a person here on BF or somewhere else. I would be happy to talk with you about his thru a PM.

I am thankful that you were so wise and took the time to pray about this relationship. Good for you!

With hope for the future,
Julieb
 
Sadly Liz some who have adopted patriarchy have adopted a form of it called "Fundamentalism Patriarchy" which is different than "Evangelical Patriarchy."

There is no way to go into all of the differences here but both have differing theologies underlying them.

I'll give you the two biggest differences here:

Fundamentalism Patriarchy believes that a woman is inferior, something to be used just for an end goal, that a woman should not speak, give any thoughts, input, or ideas to the relationship.

Evangelical Patriarchy believes that woman is a complementarian mate who can be an aid and help, that she can give ideas, and share to a degree some responsibility in the development of the relationship both in its beginning and throughout all of life's phases.

In your case you did exactly what the woman in the Song of Songs says to do: you did not stir or awaken love to soon. You can read about this in 2:7; 3:5; and in 8:4.

As a woman you must take take responsibility and not place yourself in any position that would be counter to the goal of the gospel in your life. NOTE I did not use the word where you would experience any problem. Someone once said: "I do not want to hurt this man." I replied: "Then don't join with him because you will hurt him at some point and he will hurt you at some point. That is stark reality. But the goal is to be with those who know the ultimate answer to the reasons why we have hurts, those who know, believe, and live out the gospel in their daily lives. Those who are "Evangelical," which is where get the concept of the gospel or good news. A person of good news is a person of the gospel who understand the life, heart, love, and leadership perspective of the Lord because they are living an evangelical (gospel) centered life.

Thus, our objective is to find people who we can work with together for the cause of the gospel and when finding those that is when it is safe to let love be stirred and awakened. Until then neither the man nor woman ought to stir that passion and love for it is not yet ripe and mature in the gospel of grace.

Stay the course sister, there are men out there who love the gospel, are willing to live for it, and in that process to take along with them a companion and partner that seeks to be an aid in advacing that gospel. But do beware of those of the Fundamentalism Patriarchy ideology. It is counter to the goals of the gospel and to the goals Christ has for you.
 
Thank you all for your support in this matter and I have moved on and am going on with life.I am not about to let this get me down.I am running along and learning as I go and am praying to have wisdom and guidance and asking God for His provision.I will not rush into any convenant with anyone about anything.Bless you all for your words of wisdom and encouragement.
Liz
 
DocInFL said:
If you are married, and they are hesitant to meet your current wife on your first outing, then just keep on truckin'.
Click to expand...

I totally support being safe about meeting someone but I have to disagree with the above comment.
Due to some very negative experiences with a few couples, I have established a strict "No First Wife On The First Meeting" policy. Before I meet any family members, I need to know if the gentleman and I have a real chance at developing a relationship. Once that has been decided, then I can meet the family. I learned the hard way on this....I've encountered some very dominating first wives. I know everyone has there own idea of what they want but this is the way that works best for me.
Blessings,
Fairlight
 
Re: Fool Me Once, Shame On Me. re Fairlight.

Fairlight and I usually disagree, but I agree with her on this one. Unless both you and the prospective family members have grown up in the poly tradition, like the Kody family, I see it as a real two stepper, first meet the man and see if there is potential, then meet the wives and see if the potential can be achieved. Having a dysfunctional poly family I know that even in my situation that if my current ladies don't want another wife in the family, it is definitely time to go slow and seek God's clear guidance. Each of my ladies came on board without the consent of the previous or current wives, often due to circumstances beyond my control. The only way it works is that each lives in her own dwelling, in her own town and relates primarily to her own children and grandchildren without my involvement. That's possible in old age poly where you join up with pre-existing families. I have little to do with their children and grandchildren, and that is just the way it works. Their children see me as a part of their mother's life and not as a part of their life. My ladies are so different, have such different tastes and preferences and life styles, and don't even speak the same language, that the only element that keeps us all together is our shared love of and desire to obey Jesus, our King and Savior. Given the following the logic of Fairlight's preference to meet the potential husband first makes perfect sense. Of course the Kody family arrangement is the ideal, but for most of us who don't live in polygynous communities, the ideal is quite often unattainable.

Wife B came on board after wife A left me. Wife C came on board after Wife B had kicked me out in hopes it would shock me into doing things her way. Didn't work. Wife B and I were separated on and off for 5 years, sometimes deliberately sharing me with Wife C. Wife C said she wouldn't change counties and live with me and Wife B gave me a year to shape up before she divorced me. So I found myself once more under 1 Cor 7:1-9 command to marry and asked wife D if she wanted to come on board and she said "Yes." Then Wife D got so seriously migraine sick I feared for her life and foolishly thought I was to blame and decided to back off to a friendship level with her. God showed Wife B her destructive codependency in time for us to reconcile and reunite 3 months before her deadline. For two years Widow E rented her room to me while I served as volunteer chaplain at a prison in her county on weekends. Toward the end of the first of the two years she made it clear to me that she needed to obey 1 Cor 7:1,2,8,9 and 1 Tim 5:14. There was no other eligible Christian brother available and I seeing the need and having the ability to meet the need (1 John 3:16-18) took her on as Wife E. Wife E is a very devout Christian lady, deaconness, prayer warrior and Bible student so she was okay sharing me with wife B. Wife B accepted Wife E because she was so obviously a godly woman. The I realized that I was still bound by my covenant with Wife D, even though I rashly and foolishly told God I would back off and be just a friend if He healed her. Since she never stopped wanting to be with me as wife (1 Cor 7:11,12) I realized my error and reunited with her, over the strong objections of her adult military sons. This really bothered Wife E because Wife D was either not a Christian or a spiritual babe or very carnal.
Then the pastor of Wife D told her that polygyny was an OT phenomenon and not for today, so Wife D scaled us back down to being just devoted friends. So that leaves me with Wife B and Wife E , but with wife?D? involved but not maritally. I wept when I saw how far we are from the Kody family ideal, saw the love of the wives for each other, the love of the children for all the mothers/wives, and Kody doing his level best to love all of them wisely and well. It sure helps to start young and grow polygynously together in the Lord.
 
Elkanah,

After reading all of that I had to go take some medicine for sea-sickness, not because of what you said but in trying to keep up with all of what you were saying in going back and forth :shock: I felt like I was watching a tennis match with all of the letter symbols being bounced back and forth. Whew!
 
Dr. K.R. Allen said:
Elkanah,

After reading all of that I had to go take some medicine for sea-sickness, not because of what you said but in trying to keep up with all of what you were saying in going back and forth :shock: I felt like I was watching a tennis match with all of the letter symbols being bounced back and forth. Whew!
Click to expand...


Yes, I think he has that effect on many people.............
 
Yes, do take your time! I wish I had listened to that advice. I've heard it a million times before, but I was so sure I knew what I was doing. Well, I rushed into it and married into a family that I now know I don't belong with. All I can do now is pray that God will fix the mess I've made.

A family that is in a hurry to move you in or a single person that needs to be married right away.. never a good sign. Like someone said.. if you are all sure that God has put all of you in the same path, then you are going to be together anyway, so take your time and enjoy the courting process.
 
Yes Isabella,
and that is why I am careful not to visit Biblical Families often, and why I don't attend Biblical Families Conferences.
It's not quite like throwing pearls before swine, but who needs rejection and criticism not based on Scripture.
 
How about coming on here more often and lay off the story telling a wee bit? That way you might get to engage with people.
This message above was perhaps the most comprehensible message I have EVER seen posted by you, which is worrying since I have seen plenty of your posts around for the past year or more, do you actually want to engage with others or are you happy just to repost the same thing over and over again despite the fact that no one ever answers it?

You have about 40 different Yahoo groups about Polygamy where you are pretty much the only member....doesn't that seem a bit...indulgent?

Because I have to tell you Mr.Tyler, it is getting a bit boring to tell you the truth. Yes, in a world where consensual sexual activity equals a binding lifetime marital contract I believe the majority of men in the world are Polygamists, however, it my world (where I am quite prepared to live on by myself thank you very much) a woman must agree to this being the case before it becomes a marriage and therefore, to me, you haven’t had five wives, you are a man who has a history of a) playing away without consent and b) refusing to accept that some women have chosen to leave you.

Please stop torturing us with this story….it is the same story over and over and over again.

Sorry for breaking the wall of silence over this but someone had to tell him…good grief.

Bels
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top