God not a polygamist?

[Keith Martin]

@Cap, you know I love you, but @PeteR and @steve have nailed this. The supposed dividing line between 'Old' and 'New' Testament is a false and arbitrary one, and pretty much all that not addressing a topic in the latter part of the Word of God means is that there is absolutely no reason to challenge it. God doesn't make mistakes. If, according to Him (and that's really all that matters) a change were in order, we should have no doubt that he would have eloquently articulated such a change. He did so, through His many prophets and His Son, on many occasions. The Torah is one of the first significant examples of that. Rules that hadn't previously existed were introduced. Some have subsequently been changed, but where they have been changes, those changes have been articulated later in the Word. That polygamy's guidelines were not changed or rescinded is all the evidence we need that it still obtains God's favor.

 

[Cap]

@Cap, you know I love you, but @PeteR and @steve have nailed this. The supposed dividing line between 'Old' and 'New' Testament is a false and arbitrary one, and pretty much all that not addressing a topic in the latter part of the Word of God means is that there is absolutely no reason to challenge it. God doesn't make mistakes. If, according to Him (and that's really all that matters) a change were in order, we should have no doubt that he would have eloquently articulated such a change. He did so, through His many prophets and His Son, on many occasions. The Torah is one of the first significant examples of that. Rules that hadn't previously existed were introduced. Some have subsequently been changed, but where they have been changes, those changes have been articulated later in the Word. That polygamy's guidelines were not changed or rescinded is all the evidence we need that it still obtains God's favor.

This is all rather odd and most be some type of asch experiment.

Jeremiah 31:31-34

The New Covenant

31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


In any event, still does not satisfy a good response to someone's opposition to polygamy being represented in the New Testament, whether one believes there is one or not. It's not represented in the SECOND part of the book. (You do realize that's kinda crazy)

So the death of Christ is not a dividing line?

Funny, we don't sacrifice animals in the second part.

 

[steve]

No it’s not crazy, it’s just not an important part of anyone’s storyline.
The OT is a history of Yah’s people, poly was often an important part of it. The NT is the intersection of Yeshua with that history. Poly simply wasn’t an important factor.

You have to ask an inquirer, where did Ya rule against it?

 

[Keith Martin]

@Cap, yes, Christ is a dividing line, but He is not a dividing line about everything. Everyone didn't start walking backwards from the time of His ministry. People did not start marrying animals or asparagus instead of each other. Hand holding is still permitted, but I can't remember where it is specifically addressed in the Kingdom or Gentile Gospels.

@steve's question immediately above is the only really relevant one to pose to those who challenge the non-existence of polygamy in the New Testament. The absence of something being addressed simply doesn't argue against it. The presence of an edict against it would be what would be required.

 

[Cap]

@Cap, yes, Christ is a dividing line, but He is not a dividing line about everything. Everyone didn't start walking backwards from the time of His ministry. People did not start marrying animals or asparagus instead of each other. Hand holding is still permitted, but I can't remember where it is specifically addressed in the Kingdom or Gentile Gospels.

Keith, come on man (taken from our new leader elect), where is the healing in the old part versus the new part. Where is the presents of the Holy Spirit, apparently that was something new. The first part was a contract between God and man where man had a responsibility. The second contract was all one-sided and God took responsibility on saving us.

You are seriously surprising me.

The old part is full of references to polygamous marriages, failures and all, the new, only speaks of marriage between a man and a woman. The rest is an assumption as our friend Frank would imply.

Think of this as you not trying to convince me, but someone who may not truly understand the depth of scripture you gentlemen may have.

(But I am started to wonder about you guys lately)

 

[PeteR]

I'm sorry I have no interest in reading a paper written by you, I already stated that.

Please restate your opinion here with the specifics we are talking about. Cut and paste if you have to.

That's a 'you' problem, not a 'me' problem. You asked a question and I told you where the answer was.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

@Cap, I would suggest you read it when you have time, and prepare your own paper to respond to it, or perhaps you have already written one that you can refer to him. That way, both of you can claim that you have written a paper on the topic.

 

[Cap]

That's a 'you' problem, not a 'me' problem. You asked a question and I told you where the answer was.

Most times when someone wants to give a reference to a subject they quote a recognized authority on a subject. I do not find you have that authority and I do not have time to read through your opinion. However I will listen to what you have to say here in a short explanation. Shouldn't take long if you understand your point.

 

[PeteR]

Most times when someone wants to give a reference to a subject they quote a recognized authority on a subject. I do not find you have that authority and I do not have time to read through your opinion. However I will listen to what you have to say here in a short explanation. Shouldn't take long if you understand your point.

Hilarious.

You're not going to find a 'recognized authority' on polygyny. Anybody with half a brain knows the mere mention of the subject is a career ender, particularly if they are in ministry. Ask me how I know... so, 'recognized' is out the window.

'Authority' is equally hard to find. I can count on one hand the number of Masters or PhD level guys writing from a positive perspective on the subject.

So, having the credentials and having published several books as well as dozens of articles in the field, on the subject, I have no problem pointing you to a paper that answers your question. That you are so obtuse is quite funny.

Find your own 'recognized authority.' Let me know who it is so I can add their material to my library. smh

 

[Cap]

Hilarious.

You're not going to find a 'recognized authority' on polygyny. Anybody with half a brain knows the mere mention of the subject is a career ender, particularly if they are in ministry. Ask me how I know... so, 'recognized' is out the window.

'Authority' is equally hard to find. I can count on one hand the number of Masters or PhD level guys writing from a positive perspective on the subject.

So, having the credentials and having published several books as well as dozens of articles in the field, on the subject, I have no problem pointing you to a paper that answers your question. That you are so obtuse is quite funny.

Find your own 'recognized authority.' Let me know who it is so I can add their material to my library. smh

This is where I back out with my discussion with you because it usually ends bad for me.

I'm still interested in finding out if anyone has good response to those who bring up polygamy is not on the NT.

 

[Keith Martin]

I've been wanting to add this all day:

1. I write this one from the perspective of being a writer: I'm always disappointed in people who say, don't point me to something you've written, because you may as well say the following: Please reinvent the wheel right here in front of me, and then I will not only know it's a wheel but will trust that you produced it. What is it, do you think, that should compel someone who has taken the time to research, prepare, edit and publish something elsewhere to feel the need to prove to you that they have authority just because you demand a quick summation that will convince your skeptical mind without inconveniencing you? Why, after a person has already proven themselves willing to step out on a literary and/or scholarly limb by taking the time and effort to produce a comprehensive publication (even if it's just a published article), does such a person have anything else to prove to someone who can't even be bothered to read the published article, book, etc.?
2. @Cap, I'm becoming increasingly confused about the stance you're taking in this thread. I can't figure out from one post to the next if you're being sincere in your statements or if you're just performing the role of devil's advocate. Or are you trying to persuade the rest of us to provide you with whatever ammunition you might need in having a contentious discussion about polygamy in the New Testament with some outsider you know whom you'd like to convince of the continued legitimacy of polygamy? One would think that forum threads with such advice are already legion on this web site. At moments, though, you sound like you are having your own serious doubts about the legitimacy of polygamy in our present day. If so, please just say so, because requesting help wouldn't come across like trying to pick a fight.

 

[FollowingHim]

@Cap, the Old Testament and Apocrypha both include many books of history, containing personal accounts of the lives of many people. For this reason, we see lots of marriages described in various levels of detail, both monogamous and polygamous. The New Testament however contains only five books of history, four of which are specifically focussed on the life of a celibate man (Jesus), and only one of which (Acts) is specifically about the lives of regular people. That is so focussed on missionary trips that it barely mentions anybody's marriage, except Ananias and Sapphira, maybe others I forget this minute.

Surely the marriages of the early church leaders are of great interest to us - but the only reason we even know Peter was married is because his mother-in-law is briefly mentioned because Jesus healed her, we know absolutely nothing about his wife.

Or wives for that matter - there's absolutely nothing in the New Testament to even tell us Peter or anybody else for that matter was monogamous. We just assume people are monogamous unless we specifically read clear evidence that they were polygamous. Does the New Testament only talk about celibate and monogamous men? Or do we just think it is written about monogamous men because we assume they were monogamous, making this circular reasoning?

 

[Cap]

I've been wanting to add this all day:

1. I write this one from the perspective of being a writer: I'm always disappointed in people who say, don't point me to something you've written, because you may as well say the following: Please reinvent the wheel right here in front of me, and then I will not only know it's a wheel but will trust that you produced it. What is it, do you think, that should compel someone who has taken the time to research, prepare, edit and publish something elsewhere to feel the need to prove to you that they have authority just because you demand a quick summation that will convince your skeptical mind without inconveniencing you? Why, after a person has already proven themselves willing to step out on a literary and/or scholarly limb by taking the time and effort to produce a comprehensive publication (even if it's just a published article), does such a person have anything else to prove to someone who can't even be bothered to read the published article, book, etc.?
2. @Cap, I'm becoming increasingly confused about the stance you're taking in this thread. I can't figure out from one post to the next if you're being sincere in your statements or if you're just performing the role of devil's advocate. Or are you trying to persuade the rest of us to provide you with whatever ammunition you might need in having a contentious discussion about polygamy in the New Testament with some outsider you know whom you'd like to convince of the continued legitimacy of polygamy? One would think that forum threads with such advice are already legion on this web site. At moments, though, you sound like you are having your own serious doubts about the legitimacy of polygamy in our present day. If so, please just say so, because requesting help wouldn't come across like trying to pick a fight.

Let's consider literature work in the form of monetary value. Are you going to waste you time with something that has no value to you? Let me be blunt, I find no value in what @PeteR has to say. I am not really asking for his opinion. I have no interest in reading what he wrote. That's just the facts.

"At moments, though, you sound like you are having your own serious doubts about the legitimacy of polygamy in our present day"

I have personal reasons I am interested in this discussion and I am sure that you realize that the way I am treated here, not trying to position blame, why I am not really interested in revealing at this time. However, I will say that from my experience with polygamy in the present it doesn't appear to be a positive thing. You tell me about any good relationships that have developed within the recent time period that have come from a polygamous relationship. Do you know of any positive relationships? How many sincere people have you met that want this life style,? Where are all the polygamous families that frequent this site? So yes, I am wondering about present day polygamy but that is not the whole of it. I understand the principal of plural marriage, what I am trying to find out is the practical application for it today, because I have important people to me asking.

 

[Cap]

@Cap, the Old Testament and Apocrypha both include many books of history, containing personal accounts of the lives of many people. For this reason, we see lots of marriages described in various levels of detail, both monogamous and polygamous. The New Testament however contains only five books of history, four of which are specifically focussed on the life of a celibate man (Jesus), and only one of which (Acts) is specifically about the lives of regular people. That is so focussed on missionary trips that it barely mentions anybody's marriage, except Ananias and Sapphira, maybe others I forget this minute.

Surely the marriages of the early church leaders are of great interest to us - but the only reason we even know Peter was married is because his mother-in-law is briefly mentioned because Jesus healed her, we know absolutely nothing about his wife.

Or wives for that matter - there's absolutely nothing in the New Testament to even tell us Peter or anybody else for that matter was monogamous. We just assume people are monogamous unless we specifically read clear evidence that they were polygamous. Does the New Testament only talk about celibate and monogamous men? Or do we just think it is written about monogamous men because we assume they were monogamous, making this circular reasoning?

"eisegesis".

Samuel, this is all an assumption. Just because something is not mentioned doesn't make it a continuation. Animal sacrifice is not mentioned and I don't believe actually ever told to stop but, the idea is given that it is not necessary anymore because something greater has come. Polygamy not mentioned anymore doesn't necessarily mean that it is to continue. But maybe that's not really the issue, maybe the issue is that it's not really relevant any more. The idea of patriarchy is what is meant to be understood for families, but polygamy is outdated. It's not that polygamy is wrong it just doesn't serve a universal form of reality in today's world. I am seriously asking, were is the proof of its existence today? All that you wrote seems to me to be wishful thinking. The old testament is full of polygamous references. The new testament has its references to family and marriage, but yet polygamy is left out. Why? The God of the old testament had two wives. Divorced one and then only has one. The Son of God marries a singular bride, but somehow that becomes two. Which only satisfied the desires of those who aspire to a polygamy relationship established here on earth. When the focus has changed to a spiritual relationship with God in heaven. Where is polygamy in heaven?

Only Mormons have that answer, but that is not acceptable.

 

[FollowingHim]

You tell me about any good relationships that have developed within the recent time period that have come from a polygamous relationship. Do you know of any positive relationships? How many sincere people have you met that want this life style,?

@Cap, you are well aware of many successful modern-day polygamous families, because you know them in person and they know you personally. What are you trying to achieve with such statements? It sounds like you are trying to make casual readers think that we're all about hypothetical talk and not real action. Obviously not everyone here is polygamous, but you know very well that there are multiple families in this ministry who have been successfully polygamous with marriages lasting >10 years, and more who have married more recently than that. What is your purpose in that line of talk?

Samuel, this is all an assumption. Just because something is not mentioned doesn't make it a continuation.

... or a cessation. You have been arguing that because polygamous marriage is not directly mentioned in the NT, it must have ceased to be relevant for today. You are making an argument from silence. I am pointing out that an argument from silence is irrelevant - by speculating in the opposite direction to demonstrate that speculation from silence can go both ways, therefore neither argument from silence is valid.

polygamy is outdated

That is your assertion. You have failed to demonstrate it from scripture, other than the above-mentioned argument from silence. Can you actually find a direct reference that supports this assertion?

 

[Cap]

@Cap, you are well aware of many successful modern-day polygamous families, because you know them in person and they know you personally. What are you trying to achieve with such statements? It sounds like you are trying to make casual readers think that we're all about hypothetical talk and not real action. Obviously not everyone here is polygamous, but you know very well that there are multiple families in this ministry who have been successfully polygamous with marriages lasting >10 years, and more who have married more recently than that. What is your purpose in that line of talk?

I am not really focused on what casual readers think here. I am trying to find the truth. I have been on a path to try and promote polygamy and I do believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that polygamy, or better yet, the structure of patriarchy is well established family structure that God has established as a principle. I have for all of my past almost 9 years have been spent focusing my attention on preaching the gospel of polygamy. I can with in a few short verses in the OT completely feel comfortable in relaying that information to someone else and know that I am correct. I have pushed the NT version of polygamy, 10 virgins, multiple brides in the Bride of Christ, saying that its not condemned in the NT so it most be real mantra. But, I have recently come to a situation, one I would rather not describe here, that leads me to really want to find out the practicality of polygamy in today's world. Patriarchy, yes with no hesitation. Polygamy, not so much. I am hoping someone her can provide the link I need. Maybe some have the verse, or verses that I need. Maybe they know of a work done by an recognized person who has done a study, (William Luck, anyone in that caliber) I am not going to be easily pushed over by those of the legalistic slant, or the route of "because its not condemned in the NT its real". If it is really suppose to be lived today it should be obvious.

In my almost 9 years, I have met and got to know 3 positive plural families. Two vaguely, one relatively closer for a time. That was years and years ago. Today, I have no association with them at all. They are all no longer here. They also were completely established plural families when I met them. I know of no new families created in that 9 years. But, I have seen tremendous failures. Been involved personally with three myself. I have met the most insincere people one could ever meet trying to get know other people. I have seen countless failures of other families here that have tried to live this lifestyle. You are correct that not everyone is going to live this lifestyle, but there has to be a percentage of positive to make it real. I know about just as many gay relationships that work out as I do plural ones.

There use to be regular additions to this site from people wanting to really know about polygamy. That number has dwindled significantly. People use to come and stick around and add to the group. The use to stay. Most of the ones who held contradicting view points to the current majority are slowing dissolving away. There is hardly, hardly any polygamy talk anymore. Even that polygamy shows on TV or going away. It all seems to be just a flash.

I have seen more family destruction than birth, been through it a number of times myself. I am now at a place of being asked, where is it in the NT. I can explain it for, the OT point of view and even to the point of explaining the significance of a Godly patriarchy family, and the facet of plural marriage that goes with it, but to say that someone should pursue it as a lifestyle today, not so much. It's the principle that matters, and how it affects the core husband and wife relationship, which I know is the greatest thing that comes from it.

Where is it in the NT?

... or a cessation. You have been arguing that because polygamous marriage is not directly mentioned in the NT, it must have ceased to be relevant for today. You are making an argument from silence. I am pointing out that an argument from silence is irrelevant - by speculating in the opposite direction to demonstrate that speculation from silence can go both ways, therefore neither argument from silence is valid.

That is your assertion. You have failed to demonstrate it from scripture, other than the above-mentioned argument from silence. Can you actually find a direct reference that supports this assertion?

continuation. ... or a cessation. " an argument from silence is irrelevant - by speculating in the opposite direction to demonstrate that speculation from silence can go both ways, therefore neither argument from silence is valid."

My point exactly, where's the beef?

 

[steve]

that leads me to really want to find out the practicality of polygamy in today's world.

I can speak to that.
It’s not practical if you are trying to walk with Yah, but you are not able to withstand tremendous attacks of the enemy. Nothing that I have ever experienced puts you more in his crosshairs than does poly.
He hates it.
He fears it.

 

[Cap]

I can speak to that.
It’s not practical if you are trying to walk with Yah, but you are not able to withstand tremendous attacks of the enemy. Nothing that I have ever experienced puts you more in his crosshairs than does poly.
He hates it.
He fears it.

'He' I am assuming is Satan.

There is a fine line between trying to decide whether Satan is at fault or God has placed a flaming sword in you path.

 

[steve]

That’s not much of a fine line to me.

 

[FollowingHim]

Thankyou for sharing more of where you're coming from @Cap, and honestly, I can actually empathise with your concerns.

I have for all of my past almost 9 years have been spent focusing my attention on preaching the gospel of polygamy.

May it be that you have been too focussed on polygamy, to the neglect of the more important aspects of the Gospel? I say that not just as a criticism of you, I think the same criticism could be levelled at many of us for at least a period of our time walking with God.

It is common for people to become overly focussed on one issue, and even when that issue is itself right, the over-focus on it can become a problem. I can think right now of people over-focussed on the errors of Catholicism, on abortion, and on the world being flat, to the point where it gets in the way of them reaching others with the Gospel. Two of those issues are correct in my view, but it's not about correctness or error. All three can become too singular. Polygamy is just another issue that people get too focussed on.

Maybe God is telling you it's time to walk away from preaching polygamy, because He has other work for you to do.

But you don't need to change everything you know to be true in order to move away from it. You may just need to change your focus.

This entire discussion may actually be you continuing to debate the very distraction (polygamy) that God is trying to get you to move away from. Maybe you won't know what His actual next plan for you is until you stop trying to argue either for OR against polygamy today?

I have seen more family destruction than birth

So have I.

I see the purpose of this ministry being to promote good marriages, not promote polygamy specifically.

Our first job is to help AVOID that family destruction that we have sadly all seen. I have spent more time telling people "slow down" or "don't go there" than promoting polygamy. People promote polygamy to themselves (sex is attractive). When you've seen both successful and unsuccessful families, you know the differences and you can see the warning signs.

Our second job is to provide support for existing polygamous families - including both those that are fundamentally sound but need support with details, and those that probably shouldn't have begun in the first place but did anyway and are now in a mess they need assistance to rebuild into some semblance of positive marriage. This also includes supporting people in the fallout from unsuccessful polygamy, such as abandoned wives.

There are many people who need our support, and that is precisely because polygamy is difficult and does often result in family destruction when attempted in the modern day. Even if this ministry did not exist, men would sleep with more than one woman - they have done so throughout all generations. Our job is to meet people where they are at today (which may be monogamy, polygamy, or even a mess of interlocking relationships they struggle to describe), help them to see this situation through God's eyes, and steer them in a positive direction from this point forwards.

Where is it in the NT?

There are plenty of marriage ministries that believe polygamy is not valid for today. They have their place. This ministry specifically exists for those people who believe it is valid for today. This is a niche sector of Christianity that is not served by the existing marriage ministries.

Even if you, personally, shift to believing that polygamy is not for today (and you are welcome to change your mind on that), there will still be many Christians who do believe it is valid for today (even if you believe they are wrong). Some of them will get themselves in situations where they need support from a ministry that is willing to see them from a non-judgemental perspective and work with them to find God's will for their life from this day forward. This ministry exists to support these people.

If you no longer hold this view, that's absolutely fine. But if so, you may find there is little point in you working in this area of ministry, and God may have work for you elsewhere.

But, I have recently come to a situation, one I would rather not describe here, that leads me to really want to find out the practicality of polygamy in today's world.

I think you have had sufficient exposure to both positive and negative examples of polygamy that you can probably answer that question for yourself, in the context of a specific situation. It may well be that in the specific situation you have in mind, polygamy is not practical. Every specific situation is different. Obviously I can't say any more than that without knowing more of the situation.