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GRR... I am annoyed at two of our more public voices
- Thread starter Man_in_the_Middle
- Start date
yes. A hit dog barks.
So it had nothing to do with you singling me out for disagreeing with you or with you viewing my profile prior to making the "feminist" post? I will say I do feel flattered thoughyes. A hit dog barks.
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Alright, it’s getting personal. Let’s reel it in. @Man_in_the_Middle you’re claiming for yourself a mantle that no one here knows that you deserve.
We haven’t spent enough time with you to know if you’re qualified to teach other men or to criticize members who have been here longer and been far more engaged than you.
@leastofthese disagrees with you on some things. That’s not especially surprising. She disagrees with a lot of people on a lot of things. That doesn’t make her a feminist; in fact it could be a sign of her acceptance of Patriarchy.
Remember that Patriarchy isn’t about the authority of men over women but rather the appropriate authority of specific men over specific women. I have authority over my wife and unmarried daughters but I am nothing whatsoever to @leastofthese or @Maia .
They could spit in my face and it would have no bearing on whether or not they’re feminists or if they accept the Patriarchy. There is no version of Patriarchy wherein I am a patriarch to them. The same goes for you. You are not, nor will you ever be, a patriarchal authority to them.
Disagreeing with you reveals no information about their worldview.
We haven’t spent enough time with you to know if you’re qualified to teach other men or to criticize members who have been here longer and been far more engaged than you.
@leastofthese disagrees with you on some things. That’s not especially surprising. She disagrees with a lot of people on a lot of things. That doesn’t make her a feminist; in fact it could be a sign of her acceptance of Patriarchy.
Remember that Patriarchy isn’t about the authority of men over women but rather the appropriate authority of specific men over specific women. I have authority over my wife and unmarried daughters but I am nothing whatsoever to @leastofthese or @Maia .
They could spit in my face and it would have no bearing on whether or not they’re feminists or if they accept the Patriarchy. There is no version of Patriarchy wherein I am a patriarch to them. The same goes for you. You are not, nor will you ever be, a patriarchal authority to them.
Disagreeing with you reveals no information about their worldview.
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yes, I did go back and read many many of your posts to try to understand how you think. I have done that with many members here. As the new guy I do not have the benefit of experiencing many of the prior conversations in real time so if I am going to try to gain an understanding of where someone is coming from, I have to spend time reading their prior remarks.So it had nothing to do with you singling me out for disagreeing with you or with you viewing my profile prior to making the "feminist" post? I will say I do feel flattered though
Your remarks in the past are consistent with how you have presented yourself here in this thread. There are others though where I thought that they made a wild statement and as I looked back at their many statements I realized where they were coming from and understood their current posts in a different way. I think it is fair of me and does not reflect poorly on me that I would make that kind of an effort.
I have not made any statements indicating that I think I have authority over any women here. The statement you are making is a straw man to make it appear that I have indicated that I believe I have authority over them and thus call me out to back off. Be honest, that never happened!
Their own words are what establishes their world views. This is an exchange of ideas and as they present their own words, it is from them that I am able to understand what they believe. They have not spit in my face but in the words that they use while having this discourse, their world view is on full display. Please note, they themselves have not argued that I misunderstood their views. They have simply doubled down.
And now you're purporting to know our entire world views based on a few interactions via the internet?
You're going to assert that you understand our entire world views based on how we interact in a male-dominated environment? Where men such as yourself throw out the word feminist over simple disagreements and proceed to make cringe worthy threads over us. Give me a break, lol
You're going to assert that you understand our entire world views based on how we interact in a male-dominated environment? Where men such as yourself throw out the word feminist over simple disagreements and proceed to make cringe worthy threads over us. Give me a break, lol
Keep reaching! I never said your entire world view... But yes, as we discuss things back and forth, our world view is revealed to others.
For example, I bet you now know, based on words that I have shared here, that I am against feminism and for patriarchy. Yeah?
There you go, my world view on display for you to see. My entire world view? Hardly! But then again, I am not reaching....
Alright, put your cards on the table. How have you demonstrated patriarchy in your life? Because it’s not an idea. It’s a way of behaving. What about your life qualifies you as patriarchal?
You appear to be very young. I would like to be an encouragement to you and help you develop on this path to patriarchy you’ve chosen. But you’re going to have to accept that there are people here don't completely agree with you and that’s okay. You’ll have to accept that.
I’m going to wave my moderator wand and say that any more accusations of feminism get deleted. Engage around the ideas. Show how the ideas are wrong, but if that requires you to label something feminist then I’m going to delete it.
I don’t think you really know what the word means. Now you’re going to accuse me of white knighting and that’s fine, I don’t think you really know what that phrase means either. But you can go after the ideas as hard as you want. I won’t try to protect anyone.
I’m taking one word away from you. You use it as a crutch and a club and it’s stunting your conversation.
I'm not understanding how you have come to the conclusion that I have an issue with patriarchy. I believe if done so correctly, it would be a huge relief and comfort to most women. What woman wouldn't want the guidance and covering of someone they admire and respect?
The issue lies with the fact that many men simply aren't good leaders...I understand men naturally have the desire to lead; however, many don't have the skill set to back it up. More times than not, they put the cart before the horse. Maia has expressed examples of this happening at school. I can't even begin to tell you how often I've experienced such things in my life, particularly in a work environment. Sometimes I'm simply expressing my grievances with such men. It's only natural for women to be vigilant and careful. Having our defenses up, questioning opinions, and being vigilant doesn't equate to hating men or patriarchy in general. The skepticism we hold is something that most men should want the women in their lives to have when it comes to random men.
One of the best things that ever happened to me was letting my guard down around a man whom I admired and respected. But you know what this man didn't do? He never screeched the word "feminist" towards me when we disagreed. He never used the word "patriarchy," and he certainly never demanded that I submit to him. My natural instincts as a woman kicked in, and I couldn't help but carry myself in a softer, more agreeable manner because of his actions.
Men online spend 90% of their time discussing how women should behave, how we should submit, and how we are brainwashed by society and culture. While I do empathize with men, it's simply not my place or responsibility to teach men how to be men that women desire to follow. It's also not our obligation or burden as women to be on the receiving end of the angst and frustration that comes from men's lack of success in that department. Perhaps spending more time engaging with other men and discussing ideas of how to be better leaders would be more beneficial to the patriarchy cause? If enough men backed up all of this talk with actions, even the most "feminist" of women would get in line to follow.
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Your answers are always so good, so right on. And they seem to always be correct because they agree with my opinion and what better arbiter of reality is my opinion? I am now too old it appears ever to be blest with even one wife, let alone the 2 or more I seek and need. But I CAN counsel others. I wish I had even suspected polygyny was right and acceptable and good in the eyes of God and I would have sought nothing else. But in agreement with you, I think the man should discuss with anyone contemplating marriage with him, that he will be desiring to add a wife or two or ten as the months and/or years go by. To fail to be honest about that "up front" would be as wicked as my wife was to me, who did not desire to mate AT ALL, except to produce two children. Her dishonesty to me, a man far too super-sexed, has provided me with a lifetime of hurt and need. How wicked can one person be? But similarly - a man to spring this on a wife without giving forwarning would be just as cruel as she was to me.
If a man is only interested in sex, then he shouldn't get married even once.
Wrong.
1 Corinthians 7:8/9
Now to the unmarried and widows I say this: It is good for them to remain unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
However, one cannot help but get the impression that some here are not looking for a biblical wife, they are essentially looking for a sex slave. There was even someone here who was romanticizing war brides.
I guess..... for some people the line between a slave and a wife is very undefined indeed.
Well, a lot of them are volunteer plants.
There should be a story in the bible about checking if the tares are not in fact gold mines. We have have found that a plant that the majority of farmers absolutely despise in fact contains saponins with desiderable traits of an extremely high purity. We grow fields of these "weeds."
Sex is one of those endlessly fascinating topics for me. The social complexities attached to it I often fail to understand but sometimes I see them more clearly than most people do.
I agree that for some men if sex is their only motivation in a relationship then they're best avoided.
For some others it is an expression of their love for their wife. <<< This is the modern day ideal in the West.
For some men sex is a tool that leads them to a goal. The same can be said of women.
I allow that while the Gift of Sex from God may be misused it isn't always wine and roses when it is used properly.
Way back when I was a young woman who wanted a family and a safe home and sex was what I did to obtain what I wanted.
I met Steve and he wanted me, he wanted me to give him babies, and he wanted me to be in his home.
We definitely did not get married for love. Yet the end result was IMHO Godly.
I'm just saying that a good man can have sexual desires and then act on them in a Godly way.
For me Sex, and a husbands desires are actually the least of my concern - although that might be a naive miscalculation on my part- and I can accept that marriage and sex are intertwined to an extent that if I give a consent to a marriage that this also includes a consent to sex. For me my life apart from Sex, and defining, and crafting that to reach my goals is more important. Basically I have a bucket list of things I want to do.
The husband does not need to take much interests in my hobbies and goals, however he cannot impede it either.
BiblicalLiteralist
Member
This a very modern way of thinking, and is conflicting with the very nature of patriarchy. Seek first the kingdom of your husband and all these things will be added on to you, or maybe they won't?
That is something a husband must wrestle with in seeking the kingdom of Yah. What are the motivations, is a reward expected? We know he will give good gifts, but should we expect a gift for every deed? Should we be satisfied with what we get and is accomplishing the goal enough of a reward? Knowing we satisfied and fulfilled should be enough, shouldn't it? See Romans 9.
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Let's say you want to chase your dream of being a professional athlete. The husband is busy with work, so he can provide for his family. He makes the executive decision that you're to abandon that dream, and stay home taking care of the kids. Would you reject such a command?
I imagine it's not much different that a CEO telling his employees you must return back to the office to work. No more working from home doing close to nothing.
Or - ofc - the Almighty telling you to drop everything and come follow him. Or to leave Sodom and Gomorrah and don't look back to long for it. Everyone has a choice - free will - but choices have consequences as well.
How is it conflicting? The definition of a biblical marriage is submitting to your husband's will. As long as she is upfront and honest about her goals to begin with there should be no conflict with her future husband, if he is accepting of her terms and preferences prior to marriage. We all have preferences, that's the purpose of dating, to seek compatibility. Many men are perfectly fine with their wife/wives having goals of their own and even go so far as to help achieve them.
BiblicalLiteralist
Member
The statement that the husbands desires are the least of her concerns, pretty much sums it up. It means her goals are her priority, you cannot serve two masters. Having goals and wants are not the issue, it is placing them above her husbands that is the conflict. I agree it would suit her best to find a husband who shares interest in the same goals for the least friction, but the understanding needs to be that the priority should be the goals of the husbands as that is a part of patriarchy. Following the mans lead.
Imagine a husband saying the same thing to YHWH. Would you respect a man who felt that way towards YHWH? Would YHWH want someone around who preferred their own thing? Lots of examples in the bible about how YHWH feels about that kind of thinking.
There is nothing wrong with having our wants and desires, its the order in which we place them on our prioity list that becomes the problem. Seek first the kingdom of YHWH...Matthew 6:33
Imagine a husband saying the same thing to YHWH. Would you respect a man who felt that way towards YHWH? Would YHWH want someone around who preferred their own thing? Lots of examples in the bible about how YHWH feels about that kind of thinking.
There is nothing wrong with having our wants and desires, its the order in which we place them on our prioity list that becomes the problem. Seek first the kingdom of YHWH...Matthew 6:33
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