Half arguments over at GCM

[The Duke Of Marshall]

Ok, I finally had to do it.

I think it's important to recognize the distinction between the Mosaic and Messianic covenants. They are most certainly NOT the same covenant, nor is the new an extension or an addendum to the obsolete covenant. God's moral law is certainly demonstrated throughout His Word and it applies equally to ALL men in ALL times, but unique law given to a specific people for a specific period and for a specific purpose is not universal law. I am no more required to sacrifice animals than I am to build an ark. Neither of these requirements were given to New Covenant Believers.

False logic: The ark was not part of the covenant/law.

Mat 26:28 “For this is My blood, that of the renewed covenant, which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Mar 14:24 And He said to them, “This is My blood, that of the renewed covenant, which is shed for many.
Joh 13:34 “A renewed command I give to you, that you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
1Co 11:25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the renewed covenant in My blood. As often as you drink it, do this in remembrance of Me.”
2Co 3:6 who also made us competent as servants of a renewed covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit, for the letter kills but the Spirit gives life.

The New Covenant did not alter the Old Covenant, it replaced it entirely. The Old has long passed away.

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets.1 I did not come to destroy but to complete."

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Gen 9:12 And Yahuweh said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Lev 3:17 It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be an Elohim unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Gen 17:19 And Yahuweh said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Yahuweh forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Yahuweh forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of Yahuweh? Yah forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Master, Master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Master, Master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. <-- (From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.)

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, Yahuweh: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Yah forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to Yahuweh, and do works meet for repentance.

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of Yah.

1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to Yahuweh, but under the law to Yahushua,) that I might gain them that are without law.


Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Master Yahushua unto good works, which Yahuweh hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great Elohim and our Messiah Yahushua;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works

etc, etc, etc

All I know is that I'm human and I'm stupid in the grand scheme of things. Yahuweh said don't eat it. I'm not going to assume that I'm smarter than Yahuweh and that he made a mistake that I'm smart enough to fix on my own. Yahuweh put it in place but never did come back and say "Well, ..........now it's alright" After all, What would Yahushua(Jesus) do? Or more specifically, what would Yahushua(Jesus) eat?


Matthew 22:48 "And on the third day Jesus went up with his disciples on the road to Galilee, and yea they did stop at the 7-11 for pork rinds and slim jims"

 

[Anonymous]

That's really more than I meant to say regarding Mosaic dietary law, so I'll stop there. However, I think it's important to recognize the distinction between the Mosaic and Messianic covenants. They are most certainly NOT the same covenant, nor is the new an extension or an addendum to the obsolete covenant. God's moral law is certainly demonstrated throughout His Word and it applies equally to ALL men in ALL times, but unique law given to a specific people for a specific period and for a specific purpose is not universal law. I am no more required to sacrifice animals than I am to build an ark. Neither of these requirements were given to New Covenant Believers. The New Covenant did not alter the Old Covenant, it replaced it entirely. The Old has long passed away.

Jesus did say that not one dot would pass away from the law until all is fulfilled, in relation to abolishing the law. The letters in the NT speak of a passing away, but not in the sense Jesus referred to it. Indeed, not all is fulfilled yet. There is still prophecy of what is to come later. There is still much yet to come. So, has it been made obsolete? Certainly not.

I have a very unorthodox/unpopular understanding of these passages related to the ending of the Mosaic law coinciding with the end of the nation of Israel (the covenant was given with the creation of the nation and the covenant ended with the conclusion of the nation), but that's a discussion for another time. Suffice to say, I agree that the entire Mosaic covenant was in full effect, to those to whom it was given, "till the heaven and the earth pass away", per Matt. 5:17-18, which I am convinced occurred during the seven year war of 66AD - 73AD. I am, however, in complete agreement with the gist of your conclusions, even though I have arrived there from a slightly different analysis. Since the first century, I believe there has only been one covenant with Him and it's the same for ALL men, regardless of their genealogy or blood lines. Any present-day Mosaic covenant still being in effect would seem to suggest an alternative way for non-gentiles that would still be acceptable to Him, which runs counter to numerous NT teachings. In light of how the Old Testament prophets used and understood the phrase "heaven and earth" as it relates to God's final judgment upon a physical nation, I see no reason to interpret Jesus' words any differently. YMMV.

In His love,
David

 

[The Revolting Man]

Let me preface this by saying that if I misunderstand you I apologize. I am glancing at these posts in the wee hours of the morning on my way to bed so I could easily have missed the main points.

The problem I'm having with Sadan and David both is not your conclusions necessarily but how you're arriving at them. You seem to be implying, or at least someone could draw the implicaton from your posts, that large parts of the Old Testament law do not apply at all to non-Jews. David you keep talking about the old covenant vs. the new but my understanding is that the covenant was the sacrifices and path to atonement. The law is separate. I know I'm not quoting scripture but I'm almost tempted to ask what good is quoting scripture if you can cherry pick what of it applies to you. I know that's not what you two are doing but its what it leads to. Especially since the dietary laws applied to all Jews as well as those who converted into Judaism, not just Levites.

Now I don't believe the dietary laws are still in effect, Peter's dream with the formerly unclean animals on the sheet effectively dealt with that, but we still have to be careful how handle these things. As my father used to say, live by the Curly shuffle, die by the Curly shuffle. If we wave magic wands over scripture and make it do what we want, even if our conclusions are correct, someone else will follow our lead with incorrect conclusions. And then we will have led our brothers astray, not with food or doctrine but simply with an incorrect approach to Scripture.

 

[Anonymous]

God's moral law is certainly demonstrated throughout His Word and it applies equally to ALL men in ALL times, but unique law given to a specific people for a specific period and for a specific purpose is not universal law. I am no more required to sacrifice animals than I am to build an ark. Neither of these requirements were given to New Covenant Believers.

False logic: The ark was not part of the covenant/law.

I agree that the command to build an ark was not part of a covenant. My point was that any command not given to me is not applicable to me. I was not commanded to build an ark. I was not commanded to pay tithes to the sons of Levi. I was not commanded to sacrifice an animal at the temple. Those who were given these commands have long since died.

The New Covenant did not alter the Old Covenant, it replaced it entirely. The Old has long passed away.

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets.1 I did not come to destroy but to complete."

No arguments there. Either He completed or He didn't complete. Either He did what He said He would do, WHEN He said He would do it, or He didn't.

"The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)

"There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)

"This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

"If anyone is ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His Father’s glory with the holy angels.” And He said to them, “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Kingdom of God come with power." (Mk. 8:38-9:1)

"This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Mk. 13:30)

"This generation will not pass away until all things take place." (Lk. 21:32)

"This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days...'" (Acts 2:16-17)

Everyone can decide for themselves if he did what He said. I've found hundreds of proof-texts in the Old and New Testaments to support my position that He did exactly what He claimed He would do, precisely on time, precisely when Daniel said the seventieth week would occur. I believe God knows how to tell time and His Word lines up with historical facts. My point is not to convince anyone of anything, but merely to demonstrate why I believe that He came not to destroy, but to COMPLETE the Torah and the Prophets. I believe it has been completed, right on schedule.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Correct. God's universal law preceded anything mentioned in the Mosaic covenant and this same law was given to all men, not just a select group. Sin is the transgression of the law, NOT the unique Mosaic covenental law given to national Israel for a season. When I made a covenant with my wife, she agreed to be mine. My covenant with her does not extend to all women everywhere, but only to her specifically, and then only until Rom. 7:1-4, at which time she is freed to enter into a better covenant.

Gen 9:12 And Yahuweh said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:

Notice the passage you quoted is only nine verses after He just finished saying, "Every moving creature that lives is food for you. I have given you all, as I gave the green plants." (verse 3). If anything, this reaffirms that God's second dietary law (the first was just green plants, the third was given to Israel alone) was given to all gentiles for all time.

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Lev 3:17 It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be an Elohim unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Gen 17:19 And Yahuweh said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Well, if we look closely at these terms like "perpetual", "everlasting", and my personal favorite, "throughout their generations" in the Old Testament, we can get a better understanding of what was being discussed...

Circumcision – Gen 17:9-10: "And Elohim said to Abraham, "As for you, guard My covenant, you and your seed after you throughout their generations. This is My covenant which you guard between Me and you, and your seed after you: Every male child among you is to be circumcised."

Holy feast days – Exodus 12:14: "And this day (Passover) shall become to you a remembrance. And you shall observe it as a festival to Yahweh throughout your generations – observe it as a festival, an everlasting law." Leviticus 23:21: "And on this same day (Firstfruits) you shall proclaim a set-apart gathering for yourselves, you do no servile work on it – a law forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations." Leviticus 23:31: "You do no work (Day of Atonement) – a law forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings." Leviticus 23:41: "And you shall observe it as a festival to Yahweh for seven days in the year (Tabernacles) – a law forever in your generations. Observe it in the seventh month."

Animal sacrifices – Exodus 29:42: "a continual burnt offering for your generations at the door of the Tent of Meeting before Yahweh, where I shall meet with you to speak with you." Exodus 30:10: "And Aharon shall make atonement upon its horns once a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonement – once a year he makes atonement upon it throughout your generations. It is most set-apart to Yahweh."

Incense – Exodus 30:8: "And when Aharon lights the lamps between the evenings, he shall burn incense on it – a continual incense before Yahweh throughout your generations."

Holy anointing oil – Exodus 30:31: "And speak to the children of Yisra’el, saying, ‘This is a set-apart anointing oil to Me throughout your generations."

Sabbath observance – Exodus 31:13-17: "And you, speak to the children of Yisra’el, saying, “My Sabbaths you are to guard, by all means, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, to know that I, Yahweh, am setting you apart. And you shall guard the Sabbath, for it is set-apart to you. Everyone who profanes it shall certainly be put to death, for anyone who does work on it, that being shall be cut off from among his people. Six days work is done, and on the seventh is a Sabbath of rest, set-apart to Yahweh. Everyone doing work on the Sabbath day shall certainly be put to death. And the children of Yisra’el shall guard the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant."

Levitical priests in the tabernacle – Exodus 40:15: "and shall anoint them, as you anointed their father, and they shall serve as priests to Me. And their anointing shall be for them an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations." Numbers 18:23: "because the Lewites shall do the service of the Tent of Meeting, so they themselves bear their crookedness. A law forever, throughout your generations: that among the children of Yisra’el they are to have no inheritance,"

"Everlasting", "throughout their generations", "forever", "throughout your generations". Whatever else we might categorize all of these Torah provisions as, one thing is absolutely certain. All of these practices were to endure for the same length of time – throughout Israel’s generations. Circumcision, holy feast days, animal sacrifices, incense, anointing oil, Sabbath observance, and the Levitical priesthood in the tabernacle.

If any of them have ceased, then they must have all ceased, since they were all to endure for the same length of time. These all continued as long as Israel’s special relationship to God continued, and all would end when that special relationship ended.

All I know is that I'm human and I'm stupid in the grand scheme of things. Yahuweh said don't eat it. I'm not going to assume that I'm smarter than Yahuweh and that he made a mistake that I'm smart enough to fix on my own. Yahuweh put it in place but never did come back and say "Well, ..........now it's alright" After all, What would Yahushua(Jesus) do? Or more specifically, what would Yahushua(Jesus) eat?

As He was under the Mosaic covenant, He would no doubt have eaten only those things permitted to the nation of Israel. But do you really think God made a mistake originally and He simply kept correcting that mistake? First, only eat green plants. Then, eat green plants and all that moves. Then, only eat clean animals. Maybe the distinction between clean and unclean animals was a type and shadow of something for a specific purpose? Something that Israel was to understand about being distinct and set-apart? The natural is the type, the spiritual is the anti-type.

If you believe the reason that Israel was not to eat unclean animals was due to a HEALTH reason, you've missed the whole point. By all means, eat healthy (whatever we think healthy might be) and avoid eating unhealthy food. That's just good stewardship of God's property. But don't mistake healthy eating as somehow having anything to do with the command for national Israel to only eat clean animals for the duration of the covenant. That suggests God intended gentiles to eat unhealthy, yes? Is that really what we walk away with when studying these passages?

Food for thought. :lol:

Always in His love,
David

 

[Anonymous]

The problem I'm having with Sadan and David both is not your conclusions necessarily but how you're arriving at them. You seem to be implying, or at least someone could draw the implicaton from your posts, that large parts of the Old Testament law do not apply at all to non-Jews.

Actually, it's worse than that. Large parts of the Old Testament law (specifically, the Mosaic covenant) does not apply to ANYONE AT ALL today, whether Jew or gentile. At least, that's my position. That covenant has ended, along with its associated curses. People are certainly free to try to follow as many of those laws as they possibly can, given we have no Levites, no temple, no animal sacrifices, etc, but a modern-day Jew has about as much to gain from such rituals as a modern-day gentile would. That entire system was completely and decisively ended by God Himself almost 2,000 years ago. Paul was quite correct when he said it was ready to pass away, and when the temple finally burned to the ground, the covenant was over. God's judgment, prophesied by so many over so many years, had finally been carried out.

Keep in mind that those OT laws which were eternal, universal law, those given to all mankind...those laws naturally still are applicable, just as they were applicable to gentiles during the period of national Israel. They existed for all men before, during, and after the Mosaic covenant. Jesus summed them up quite well. But if similar or identical laws ALSO happened to be codified in the Mosaic covenant, it is immaterial. One has nothing to do with the other. All we can be certain of is that God would never command anything immoral, whether as part of a strict covenant code or not.

As it issue relates to polygyny, God's definition of marriage has not changed. Adultery is still adultery. Marriage is still marriage. His Word demonstrates conclusively that a man is permitted to take more than one wife, just as he is permitted to have more than one child. The obsolete Mosaic covenant even required a man to take another wife if the need arose, and we know God would never require something that is sinful. Now the requirement is simply to love God and love man. Relationship has always been the very heart of God.

David you keep talking about the old covenant vs. the new but my understanding is that the covenant was the sacrifices and path to atonement. The law is separate.

The Mosaic law was an integral component of the Mosaic covenant. They could not be separated. The entire system could only work as a whole. I can provide Scripture to demonstrate if you like, but I don't want to overload this conversation, and many of these rabbit trails probably deserve their own topics.

I know I'm not quoting scripture but I'm almost tempted to ask what good is quoting scripture if you can cherry pick what of it applies to you. I know that's not what you two are doing but its what it leads to. Especially since the dietary laws applied to all Jews as well as those who converted into Judaism, not just Levites.

This is why we need to study and check our theology against what Scripture actually says. Not just the parts that agree with what we already think, but even all the verses that suggest an alternate understanding. It's true that many Christians read the NT without any consideration to what the OT says, but then we have Messianics that fall in the other ditch and try to force every NT verse through the lens of Moses, making absolute gibberish out of many plain sense passages in Romans, Galatians, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, etc., to the extent that Paul himself wouldn't recognize what he was supposedly meaning to communicate. We need to take a balanced approach and understand that the OT prophesied that which the NT fulfilled. There is no conflict between the Old and New Testaments, but the Old Covenant is NOT the New Covenant, and we seriously miss the mark when we try to force them to say the exact same thing.

Now I don't believe the dietary laws are still in effect, Peter's dream with the formerly unclean animals on the sheet effectively dealt with that

And with dietary law goes animal sacrifice, physical circumcision, tithing, Sabbath observance, Levitical priesthood, etc. Some will try to get you back into bed with Hagar if you give them a chance, but NT Scripture is clear on these points. Paul's primary concern was the Judaisers coming in and stealing away the sheep from the Shepherd. If nothing else, that's a good enough reason to study this material carefully to make sure we're not being deceived.

Try to get some rest. Be blessed!

In His love,
David

 

[steve]

Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

in other words;
lets not encumber the new converts with the entire law from day one, but that they start by avoiding idols, fornication, things strangled and blood. the rest of the law of moses is taught in all of the synagogues on every sabbath and in every city. they can get up to speed as they learn the truths

 

[Faithful Servant]

Hey Guys,

Hope ya don't mind me jumping in here. I still have allot of studying and growing in the Lord myself to do, so I don't wish to be disrespectful or any kind of a hindrance. I also have been studying these very issues off & on over the last year, and still have more studying to do as I continue to seek Yeshua's will above all else. So with having said that, I'd just like to share a few scriptures that I've been in prayer about, to get your opinion on.

For Starters I'm going to refer to Colossians 2:9-15; For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him your were also circumcised, in the putting of of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hand of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15: And having disarmed the powers and authorities , he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Okay so my first set of questions would be, what are the written codes with their regulations do you think is being spoken of, that Yeshua himself said that He canceled them by taking it away & nailing it to the cross?

So moving along, my next set of scripture is from Matthew 15:10-20; Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand, what goes into a man's mouth does not make him unclean, but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him unclean." Then the disciples came to him and asked, "do you know that the pharisees were offended when they heard this?" 13; He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots, leave them;they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." 15; Peter said, "explain the parable to us." 16; Are you still so dull? Jesus asked them. "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man unclean. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man unclean, but eating with unwashed hands does not make him unclean. Would these scriptures also be referring to to the old dietary laws and how they're unnecessary for us today through the new covenant ?

Hebrews 8:1-13; The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man. Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain. But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with the first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 9; It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. To save space & time, moving ahead to vs 12; For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more. 13; By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Again I don't profess to be " a know it all," as I'm still studying, seeking Yeshua's will above all else and growing. As I will never claimed that "I've arrived either," as those who do make such claims usually have the furthest to go. Just sharing what I've been studying and asking your shared insights & nuggets of Godly wisdom with which we can all encourage, support, challenge one another, and grow together as Brothers & Sisters in Christ. I do have more scripture to share with more questions. However I don't wish to be a rude hindrance and thus hog the forum here. Thanks guys for letting me jump in on this discussion. Go forth in His Might, Power, Love and a Sound Mind. Being a blessing & help on the path that Yeshua has placed you on. Being blessed in return according to the True/Noble motives of your hearts.

FOR HIS GLORY ALONE!
Faithful(not perfect)Servant

 

[Mark C]

I'm going to echo Todd's concern above and suggest that the elements which might become "divisive" be avoided where possible, so I'll try to be specific here and avoid issues which might seem too much like "doctrine".

In general, my contention is and will be that Churchianity (to paraphrase Peter's warning in II Peter 3:15-16) has so TWISTED the Scripture over at least seventeen centuries that "evil" is now called 'good', and vice-versa. Most her have come to recognize how Satan has managed to twist what YHVH Wrote about marriage; surprise! he wasn't through yet.

Hey Guys,

Hope ya don't mind me jumping in here. I still have allot of studying and growing in the Lord myself to do, so I don't wish to be disrespectful or any kind of a hindrance. I also have been studying these very issues off & on over the last year, and still have more studying to do as I continue to seek Yeshua's will above all else. So with having said that, I'd just like to share a few scriptures that I've been in prayer about, to get your opinion on.

For Starters I'm going to refer to Colossians 2:9-15:

... He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15: And having disarmed the powers and authorities , he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Okay so my first set of questions would be, what are the written codes with their regulations do you think is being spoken of, that Yeshua himself said that He canceled them by taking it away & nailing it to the cross?

But FS has asked THE key question, and I want to try to answer it here as honestly as possible without being too critical of those 'blind guides' who have for so many centuries taught against Him. After all, Peter has already warned that the "unlearned and untaught" have been twisting or "wresting" Paul's writings, "and the rest of Scripture", too - "unto their own destruction", which echoes the earlier warning of the prophet Hosea (4:6).

Satan is sometime referred to as the "Adversary"; a teaching that I find instructional in discussions like this one is take a hint from the Book of Job and then note that he may also be thought of as "a company man". Think of a slick, suit-wearing prosecuting attorney whose mission is to ENTRAP people and then convict them. The "handwriting of ordinances against them" is in effect an indictment. And it's an indictment for REBELLION against God... (he should know!)


So let's start by looking at what I submit is a poor rendering of a text (Col. 2, esp. 14, but also similar references like Eph. 2:15, etc) that was/were almost certainly NOT written originally in the Greek which survives. More importantly, however, it is the concept of LAW ("torah" in Hebrew does NOT equal "nomos" in Greek, much less the common legalistic meaning in English of "law") which has been "twisted".

It is the CURSE which has been "nailed" -- not His "teaching and instruction"! (compare even the English renderings among multiple versions of the text)

It is the "handwriting of the INDICTMENT" which has been "done away with", NOT His Word.

We have been forgiven for the sin of deliberate, willful REBELLION against Him, and redeemed by our Kinsman-Redeemer from the "wages of sin", which is Death.

"But shall we sin more, that grace might abound? YHVH forbid!" (the whole POINT of Romans chapter 6)

There is FAR more to the discussion than one single post can contain. (And the more 'divisive' elements I will avoid for now.) But there are TWO other things which must be understood.

1) There are MANY types of "sacrifice" outlined in the Torah, from "tresspass offerings", and "peace offerings", to the sacrifices of the scapegoats for UNintentional sin. But nowhere is those descriptions of such "sacrifices of bulls and goats" is there EVER a specific mention of a sacrifice for INTENTIONAL sin. (aka "rebellion", which "is as the sin of witchcraft", or idolatry.) Such a Sacrifice IS described over and over again in His Word, of course, but perhaps never more beautifully than in Gen. 22:8:
And Abraham said, My son, Elohim will provide Himself a Lamb for a burnt offering...

That is why Paul and the other Apostles CONTINUED to offer OTHER sacrifices in the Temple even after His Perfect Sacrifice, but recognized that the ONE Sacrifice of our Kinsman-Redeemer was "ONCE, for all".

2) The "law" that in fact WAS "done away with" was NEVER what God Himself Wrote! Is was what MAN wrote (the "oral torah", the "traditions of the elders", the commands of the Pharisees, and later the Popes...the whole idea of "teaching as doctrine the commandments of MEN" that Yeshua made an "open spectacle of" and "triumphed over") that He without question DID AWAY WITH.

Note that Yacob was (as has been correctly noted) a "Jew", or a "Levite" (his twelve sons become the fathers of those tribes). But he WAS a "Hebrew" like His father Abraham, and -- most importantly -- YHVH Himself changed his name to Israel.

It is Israel which we ("whosoever will" choose to be, thankfully) CAN be "grafted in" to! There was "one law" for all, including the 'stranger who dwells within your gates". It was a "mixed multitude" which "came out of" Egypt (Mitzraim). Those who CHOSE LIFE, and sought to be "grafted in", were allowed to come with Moses. (Caleb, who the Bible notes was a polygynist, as well as the only other elder besides Joshua to walk into the promised land, was a "stranger" - yet he CHOSE to become obedient to God, and was "grafted in" to the tribe of Judah for his inheritance.)


The question we must answer for ourselves is, "do I want to be grafted in, too?"

Yeshua said it this way: (John 14:15, and in MANY other places, too)

"IF you love Me, keep My commands."

Not that we can "earn salvation" by keeping the "works of the Torah". But because it is our "reasonable service", if we really love Him, and as a result wish to serve Him, we should also keep His commandments. (Not the 'traditions' or 'laws of man', whether of Pharisees or Popes, but His commands.) All of 'em that we can, as best we can.

"As for me and my house, we will serve YHVH."

Blessings in His service,

Mark

PS> Re-read His teaching about the Pharisee's "ordinances" about hand-washing in Matt. 15 with that understanding. What makes men unclean is rebellion to YHVH, not breaking the traditions of "blind guides".

 

[jay c]

I believe the "handwriting of ordinances that were against us" might refer to the curses written against the woman suspected of adultery in Numbers 5.

 

[welltan]

I usually avoid such a discussion, because as far as I remember I have never seen anyone change their position based on anything said here about the Torah, the law, and what Christ did or did not do as regarding both. I would like everyone to do a little object lesson though.
In the top right of the screen (not the internet search engine) you are probably now on type in "Torah" and do a forum search. There are so many that the search engine will not report. Type in "law" and you will get the same result. However if you type in "vail" it is none found. If search for "veil" you will get like 15 or so (count will change after I post this). Did we know that "veil" and "vail" are different words? Also if you look at all of these "veil" posts. None of them address or use

II Cor 3:13
13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

And none of our posts use "vail" and leave out the following scriptures (or "veil")

I Cor 3:
14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

My point is that all our discussion is polarized between two positions, and leaves out the vail completely. The third chapter of II Cor may have been referenced generally, but there is no discussion of the vail. The vail adds a third element..

The vail exists. Vail and veil are different words and have Greek and Hebrew form.
The vail is in place whenever the Old Testament is read
When the heart is turned to the Lord the vail is taken away. This is something that needs to be done.
The Lord is the Spirit and brings Liberty.

There is some small mention or discussion of the curtain rent at the time of the crucifixion, but is not applied to the area of Christ and the Law. Surely as mentioned in Scripture this has more meaning then just to say that something broke during an earthquake.

 

[steve]

Surely as mentioned in Scripture this has more meaning then just to say that something broke during an earthquake.

true,and i will not spend the time right now to write what i see in this, but in my understanding it does not have a bearing on the present discussion.
please let us know what you see in this situation

 

[Mark C]

I believe the "handwriting of ordinances that were against us" might refer to the curses written against the woman suspected of adultery in Numbers 5.

Excellent point, Jay. I have no doubt there is at least a good lesson there, because there is SO MUCH that is taught by that one particular parable, including about marriage and adultery.

...The vail exists. Vail and veil are different words and have Greek and Hebrew form.
The vail is in place whenever the Old Testament is read
When the heart is turned to the Lord the vail is taken away. This is something that needs to be done.
The Lord is the Spirit and brings Liberty.

And also a good point. (although I don't agree with the "vail in place whenever the Old Testament is read" point -- at least as stated -- because I see a lot of vail, and even twisting, of the "New" one as well. But "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?" He gave it ALL to us, and taught "with authority", for a reason. It's "EVERY WORD" which proceeds from His mouth that matters.)

I have no problem with good teaching which says that His teachings, His Words, His parables might mean "this, or that". Scripture often - if not ALWAYS - has more than one level of meaning. (While we're doing the Google thing - look up 'sod', 'drash', 'remez', and 'paschat' levels. Most scholars -- including Torah scholars like Paul -- have recognized for millennia that His Word has at least four levels of "Truth" -- and that one of them is called "hidden", or, as Paul is translated, a great 'mystery'!)

The only place where I get up tight is where people try to teach that His Word is somehow "done away with" when He says so clearly otherwise. Yes, there are things He did, and is STILL, teaching us that have been there in His Word ALL ALONG*. By His perfect sacrifice, we have been washed clean in His blood from the curse. But "shall we sin more, that grace might abound? YHVH forbid!" We can, indeed, do "all things" through Him - but NOT in rebellion to Him, or in ignorance of His "teaching and instruction".

He warned those who would seek to "add to" or "subtract from" His Word (as Eve did, in Gen. 3:3, just the tiniest bit!) that teachers are held to a higher standard (Matt 5:19):
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Sounds like an easy choice to me.

The warning He gives in Matthew 7:23, however, is far more sobering. Those who are "without torah", "lawless", or "work iniquity" (take yer pick) are told by Yahushua (literally Yahu-our-Savior) "I never knew you."

The lesson, it seems to me, is to be EXTREMELY careful to avoid teaching things that look like "additions to" or "subtractions from" His Word. (Again, Deut. 4:2, Deut. 12:32, and others, up to and including the End of the Book) Since He didn't change "one yod or tiddle", neither will I.

So I summarize it this way, speaking for me personally.

I do NOT teach that eating pork or shellfish is good for you, because they are not. But were I to be stranded in the wild, starving, and see that He gave me a squirrel or rabbit to eat and thus survive - I would receive it with prayer and thanks...because His Word says to "choose life!"

And I don't teach that those who eat things He said were "unclean" and thus not "food" or "meat" will "go to hell" -- because He most certainly did not say that.**

But I do teach that He said He "changes not" and that He keeps His Covenants -- all of 'em -- because He says so. And I teach that He says, "If you love Me, keep My commands", because I do.

Blessings,

Mark











-----------------------------------------

* "Grace", for example, is literally ALL OVER the "old" testament. Just ask David.


** Yeah, I can't resist my own old joke:

"Eating pig won't necessarily affect what happens to you when you die...only how long it may take."

 

[The Revolting Man]

I would like to take a minute and tell both David and Sadan thank you. They challenged my faith and my knowledge and have spurred me to deepen both. While these issues are important I do not put them under the heading of "points of fellowship" so I hope both of them will continue to challenge me and add to the richness of the forum.

 

[welltan]

And also a good point. (although I don't agree with the "vail in place whenever the Old Testament is read" point -- at least as stated --

I Cor 3:
14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Ok, then it must be dependent upon who is reading. Granted, Christians should be able to read without a vail. As long as they don't keep slipping it back on everytime Christ slips it off.

 

[Mark C]

That still sounds suspiciously like Peter's comment to me, (II Pe 3:15-16). I can't help but think that whenever ANY of the Bible is read, in far too many cases and far too many "churches", that "vail is upon their heart". To that extent, there is still really "nothing new under the sun".

 

[Anonymous]

2 Tim. 2:14-15: "Remind them of this, earnestly witnessing before the Master, not to wage verbal battles - which is useless - to the overthrowing of the hearers. Do your utmost to present yourself approved to Elohim, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly handling the Word of Truth."

Acts 17:10-11: "And the brothers immediately sent Sha'ul and Sila away by night to Beroia, who, having come, went into the congregation of the Yehudim. Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonike, who received the word with great eagerness, and searched the Scriptures daily, if these words were so."

In His love,
David

 

[Edward the Elder]

Ecclesiastes 1

9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah 42

9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.

Isaiah 43

18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

Isaiah 48

6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.
7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.

Jeremiah 31

21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities.
22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

So who was right... YHVH or Solomon?

 

[Mark C]

So who was right... YHVH or Solomon?

Solomon was the wisest MAN who ever lived, so I won't try to dispute either of them.

And why can't it be BOTH, of course!

The essence of His creation is cycles...darkness and light, night being reborn into morning, life and death and rebirth...

and even those who are "old" can be "new creations" in Him. Besides, He "knew the end from the Beginning", and has "all things" worked out for our good, regardless. I'm thankful for all of that, and don't see any contradiction.

Blessings,
Mark

 

[Memphis Dwight]

To whomever endorsed preterism: I totally agree. The nation of Israel ended in 70 AD. I am Preterist.

 

[Edward the Elder]

So who was right... YHVH or Solomon?

Solomon was the wisest MAN who ever lived, so I won't try to dispute either of them.

And why can't it be BOTH, of course!

The essence of His creation is cycles...darkness and light, night being reborn into morning, life and death and rebirth...

and even those who are "old" can be "new creations" in Him. Besides, He "knew the end from the Beginning", and has "all things" worked out for our good, regardless. I'm thankful for all of that, and don't see any contradiction.

Blessings,
Mark

GOOD POINT... The principle of "both" is something that is all too often overlooked; but how does one reconcile "no new thing" with a "new thing"? It's like trying to reconcile matter with anti-matter, or an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. Surely something has to give. I would think that the words of the Creator would supercede the words of Solomon as even the wisdom of Solomon had limits. That said, the wisdom of Solomon was inspired of GOD. Perhaps the answer is found in "time lines" or "dispensations", but then that would be to suggest that there are things in scripture that do not apply to this era.

AFTER THOUGHTS

I apologise for taking so long to respond. The duties of domestic life coupled with my other online undertakings have been keeping me rather occupied. Currently doing a work on the word "mia"... As the saying goes, "How do you eat an elephant? A: One bite at a time." http://fullbibletruth.ning.com/forum/to ... e=activity

QUESTION

What is GCM anyway?