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How do you, the women of this forum get over the "unfairness" of patriarchy, especially polygyny?

raulus

raulus

Member
Male
I'm making this thread to try to understand a woman's perspective, men feel free to post as well if you think you have good advice for me, input, etc. I've looked around the forum and couldn't find a thread like this one. This has been one of the main issues I deal with with my wife. The whole difference in understanding women's and men's roles based on the bible, compared to how she's been taught her whole life. On one hand she says I misinterpret, but on the other hand this issue messes with her faith, she gets mad at God, in anger she speaks against the bible, says how disgusting it is, and wrong He is.

Here's some of the main points I deal with in dispute:

Obedience to your husband in everything, as unto the Lord as scripture says, seems unreasonable to her. She tends to always ask is everything really everything? Like rob a bank? Kill someone?

She hates that men can have more wives. That it is in their authority to do so. It is disgusting to her.

That they take wives for their lustful urges, and nothing else.

She feels that it renders her as simply nothing more than an object, which I assure her it does not, and especially not to me.

That she answers to me, even if I say I don't approve of a piece of clothing.

That the woman biblically belongs to the man, in marriage

That the bible seems to be written for men, and that God doesn't care about her.

How do you women(and men) tackle dealing with this issue that the Bible can be offensive towards you, the modern day woman? How do you come to terms with it? Did you also suffer with these issues?

My wife may very well read this, so you can even speak as if you're talking to her and not me. I personally don't know how to answer some of these questions. Knowing how a woman understands these things would really help me to gain perspective, and how to help my wife with what she is dealing with in reading the bible.
 
Because men and women are different. Not the same bodies, ways of thinking, etc.....different rules are needed for each sex to make each sex happy, fullfilled, good, etc...


And different rules are morally justified because there are different consequences for behaviour.

For stealing and similar consequences are same no matter which sex has done theft. And consences are different depending which sex has introduced new partner.

Why would you raise another man's child? So, she isn't allowed to cheat. But you creating baby with another women isn't and having to provide for more children isn't threat directly against her or her children.

So what if your wife is object. She is your special lovable object. ❤
 
raulus said:
That it is in their authority to do so.
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I keep running into this trope with patriarchal men who think that authority is something that is given to them. It is not.

Taking women out of the discussion for the moment let's look at authority of men over other men and how that works.

In the military a man might be commissioned as an officer and by a consequence of being an officer he has command over other men. That's nice but it still isn't authority. Authority is the outcome of credibility.

Credible officers have authority over their men. Officers who lack credibility will not have authority and instead will have to deal with varying degrees of mutiny, some overt and some subtle. In any case they most certainly do not have authority over their men.

Apply this principle to a family.

A man who provides for his first wife, takes good care of their children, his house is in order, his income is sufficient for the family he has and more.

That man's first wife will know he's a good man who cares about her and her kids and she'll know that there will be no horrible downside to taking in a plural. Because her husband is credible and she willingly submits to his authority.

The next man can't keep a job or the job he has barely keeps the family financially solvent. There are a lot of bills to pay. There are debts to pay. He's not involved with the children. He neglects his obligations around the house, he neglects his first wife. This man has no credibility and his wife does not willingly submit to or even tolerate his claimed authority. He tells his first wife he wants to take on a plural and his first wife questions his motives, she questions his ability to support another wife, and she refuses to simply go along with what is measurably a bad idea.

Too many of you guys just don't get it when it comes to God putting a mantle of authority on you. Authority from God is not a gift, it is a responsibility.

God demands that men of authority be better men than other men.

In the modern world a man who wants to take more than one wife must be an extraordinary man and not just your average man who works from paycheck to paycheck and is saddled with student loans, car loans, a mortgage, credit card debts, and etc.

The Parable of the Talents very much applies here. If you can make much of what God gives you then you will be trusted with more. If you can't handle what you have then why should you be trusted with more?

Good men have no problem with God's requirements of them. We have plenty of examples of good men on this forum and I recommend that any man who wants to add to his family first consult with these good men.

As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. - Proverbs 27:17

Seek out these Men of Iron and learn from them. Join them and become a Man of Iron and you'll no longer wonder about authority because it will simply become the natural outcome of your credibility.

I will close with this: Every man I have ever known who complains about how no one recognizes his authority has none.

Men of Iron who hold authority never complain about it because the people around them see it and readily accept it. It is simply a fact and not anything up for discussion or debate.
 
It is pride that makes us shirk our God ordained place. It is pride that says, "I don't like this position, it is not fair, it is disgusting, it is disparaging, it is too low for me." It is pride that says, "I am capable of more, I should be allowed to do more, I am above this menial lowly work."

God gives us lessons and tests. We fail and fail and fail. He keeps giving them, until we learn the lesson. And when we think we've learned the lesson, He gives the test. If we fail it, we are back to learning our lessons. If we pass it, we get a break, but usually He comes back around to test us on lessons previously learned.

It sounds like your wife is being taught humility and is not learning. You cannot humble her. God will continue to try to humble her. She needs to humble herself.

The line of thought that most helped me early on and I still refer to occasionally is this: what right does the clay have to question the Potter? The Potter makes dishes and pots and objects for His own purposes. We are but clay. We do not even have the depth of understanding to comprehend His plan, even if He were to lay it all out for us! We ask why - and if He were to answer us in detail, we would be more confused than when we asked. It is *impossible* for us to truly fathom the goodness of His design.

Sometimes He does give us a sliver of understanding, if we ask in earnest and have a heart to obey. That understanding helps us obey. However, He does not owe us an explanation any more than the Potter owes the clay an explanation.

After that humility is gained, then there is understanding to be learned in the specifics you mention. Your wife will not comprehend submission to earthly authority until she accepts submission to her Heavenly Father. She will not understand that she, as the woman, is an image of the Church, and you, as the man, are an image of Christ, until she understands the roles and functions of the Church and Christ. The reflection is blurry for her because the actual picture is unclear. First, she must understand the picture, then the reflection will make more sense.

Once that is understood, then one can begin to consider that everything is a double-edged sword. There is no authority without responsibility. Yes, the husband has authority. He also has *responsibility*. It is controversial here, but I believe that yes, the husband has authority over his woman in ALL things. He also has responsibility over her. Yes, she may suffer for his poor decisions in this lifetime. That is unfortunate. Her eternal soul should be of more importance to her. If she be saved, then her submission in earth stores heavenly treasures in her eternal life to come. Those are bigger concepts and more difficult to comprehend. If we are too concerned with this physical life in earth, we women will never truly be submissive. But we can't get there at all without submitting first to God.
 
raulus said:
She tends to always ask is everything really everything? Like rob a bank? Kill someone?
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The man has authority because it is unfair to have him responsible for his family and accountable to God, yet not give him the authority to make decisions that guide the direction of those in his household. I understand what Megan is looking at. To me that man has credibility with the woman when she can see that his decisions are made with the good of the family in mind. If the man demonstrated selfishness, and made choices in the interest of his own ease or pleasure it might be harder to see him as looking out for his family, but it wouldn't change the fact that he is authorized to make those decisions and even negate his wife's decisions in the day that he hears them. This again is because he will answer to God for his household.
There are limits to his authority. God has not authorized man to over rule His law, so theft and murder are not within the man's scope of authority.
raulus said:
That they take wives for their lustful urges, and nothing else.
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Lustful urges are why men cheat. Taking on another wife is a huge responsibility. It's what good men do that blesses others and let's the women who have been used but not valued have a stable home and husband.

Men just satisfying lustful urges are like hunters, men that take other men's women are poachers, a husband is like the good shepherd and actually cares for those in his care.
raulus said:
She feels that it renders her as simply nothing more than an object, which I assure her it does not, and especially not to me.
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It is feminist thinking that objects to this idea.....but is usually ok with a man just "taking" a willing woman without talking to her father or doing anything to prove his sincerity. Jacob worked seven years for his wife. Modern men want a women to "put out" after a couple cheap dates.
Jacob/Israel had 4 wives and didn't divorce any of them. Modern men will divorce a wife of 20 or 30 years to be with someone new. Which approach actually treats a woman with respect and values her?
raulus said:
How do you women(and men) tackle dealing with this issue that the Bible can be offensive towards you, the modern day woman? How do you come to terms with it? Did you also suffer with these issues?
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I always believed that the truth makes us free. As a wife I have been loved and provided for. I have had the security of knowing my man looks forward to spending his life with me. He thought it was neat when he found the first silver hair on my head....because that dream of growing old together was being realized a day at a time. I have been blessed to be able to be a mother and be present with my children at home.

I won't say that as a wife and woman we always feel understood by our husband....but we need to keep in mind that just as he may not understand in a personal way what our side of marriage feels like, we don't understand the heart of a man in a personal, can relate, kind of way either.

My men folk THRIVE on doing big things, moving large objects, tackling big projects that I don't even want to watch. I would be stressed just thinking about ....what is no big deal to them.

I can understand your wife struggling with some aspects of marriage roles, but there is a lot of beauty in it when you do get it right. What some call power exchange is when you build him up by your willing submission to him. When you treat him like a worthy leader, do things that cause him to feel supported by you, he is encouraged. ....of course in that you will also feel more appreciated by him, more desired, more feminine, and that means you feel more satisfied and confident in your relationship to him. As women our strength lies in being what we were made to be. If we challenge our man by contending with him and making him convince us his ideas are good we are in an adversarial role and not the supportive one that lets him trust we are on his side.

I know each relationship is unique. I had no brothers and my dad was more like a friend then authority to me. I have had my own struggles in seeing the strength in letting my husband be my strength....in leaning on him and asking for guidance. ...but that is where the joy is.
I hope she can catch a glimpse....get a taste....and then has the courage to choose that life the world of feminists hates. That life of truly building a man's house.....with him.
 
Joleneakamama said:
If the man demonstrated selfishness, and made choices in the interest of his own ease or pleasure it might be harder to see him as looking out for his family, but it wouldn't change the fact that he is authorized to make those decisions and even negate his wife's decisions in the day that he hears them
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I agree and these men typically don't need to worry about taking on a plural because a potential plural will see what a mess this man's house is and she'll look elsewhere. Also, Biblical laws notwithstanding, such a man's first wife is free to divorce him.
 
Joleneakamama said:
It is feminist thinking that objects to this idea.....but is usually ok with a man just "taking" a willing woman without talking to her father or doing anything to prove his sincerity. Jacob worked seven years for his wife. Modern men want a women to "put out" after a couple cheap dates.
Jacob/Israel had 4 wives and didn't divorce any of them. Modern men will divorce a wife of 20 or 30 years to be with someone new. Which approach actually treats a woman with respect and values her?
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heart1.jpg
 
MeganC said:
In the military a man might be commissioned as an officer and by a consequence of being an officer he has command over other men. That's nice but it still isn't authority. Authority is the outcome of credibility.

Credible officers have authority over their men. Officers who lack credibility will not have authority and instead will have to deal with varying degrees of mutiny, some overt and some subtle. In any case they most certainly do not have authority over their men.
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I'm sorry, but this is an oversimplification and is essentially wrong. I worked for the Air Force for 32 years. A military officer does not need credibility to have authority. Authority is granted to him by the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ - basically military laws). Each enlisted person also swears a solemn oath to obey the orders of all officers before they enter the military. So whether they like it or not, they follow orders. If they fail to follow orders, they receive punishment such as Article 15 punishment, court martial, discharge from military, etc. This is the way the US military is set up. There is no "mutiny". As long as it is a lawful order, they follow it, regardless if they think it's "credible", or the officer is credible.

Credibility does not equal authority in the military. Authority is given to the officer by the UCMJ.
 
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NBTX11 said:
Again, I served in the military for 32 years. Active duty and Civil Service. I know how the military structure works. I don't need Wikipedia articles to tell me how it works.
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Except competence is part of credibilty.

@MeganC is right, if soldiers believe commander will kill them all, commander will get fragged.

Better risk court martial than certain death.

Authority given by other is never enough. It must be earned by results.
 
MemeFan said:
Except competence is part of credibilty.

@MeganC is right, if soldiers believe commander will kill them all, commander will get fragged.

Better risk court martial than certain death.

Authority given by other is never enough. It must be earned by results.
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Notice I said a LEGAL order. Any order that doesn’t violate the UCMJ is legal. Regardless or not the officer is “credible”

32 years experience.
 
MemeFan said:
Authority given by other is never enough. It must be earned by results.
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Maybe in other aspects of life, but in the US Military, this is false. Authority is not earned, it is given under the UCMJ and MUST be followed (unless it's an illegal order).

Competence has nothing to do with it. If the officer has been commissioned, he is assumed to be competent to give orders. If he gives bad or unlawful orders, his superiors will deal with that up until being removed from command.
 
MemeFan said:
Except competence is part of credibilty.

@MeganC is right, if soldiers believe commander will kill them all, commander will get fragged.

Better risk court martial than certain death.

Authority given by other is never enough. It must be earned by results.
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You all are getting authority and and respect tangled together. Respect can be earned by being competent and an authority who is incompetent is going to have a hard go of it making said authority more likely to get fragged or divorced by a rebellious subordinate. An incompetent authority has authority until the one who delegated the authority removes them from the position.
 
Responsibility without authority is slavery. Which is why God has given us men authority in our homes. Nitpicking over words aside, I understand what Megan was saying and it is accurate. If you aren’t trustworthy, your wife will not trust you. If you are not leading your wife she will not follow. From the woman’s perspective, biblically, she ought to follow her husband regardless. But people are what people are. I think Megan was giving extremely practical advice.
 
phaedrus said:
Responsibility without authority is slavery. Which is why God has given us men authority in our homes. Nitpicking over words aside, I understand what Megan was saying and it is accurate. If you aren’t trustworthy, your wife will not trust you. If you are not leading your wife she will not follow. From the woman’s perspective, biblically, she ought to follow her husband regardless. But people are what people are. I think Megan was giving extremely practical advice.
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Yet, who in the culture at large will tell women that if they aren't lovable, their husbands won't love them? 🤔 I mean, people are what people are, right? A man ought to love his woman regardless, but can you really blame him for not loving a surly, provoking, nagging woman? 🤔

I posit no one will say such a thing to any significant audience of even Christian women, much less, non-believers. It seems everyone focuses on the men and their lack of leadership, and no one wants to highlight women and their lack of submission or "lovable-ness".

Here is some practical advice for women: be in subjection to your husbands, be lovable, be desirable, be the kind of wife he can easily and joyfully lead. 🙂
 
NVIII's Babe said:
Yet, who in the culture at large will tell women that if they aren't lovable, their husbands won't love them? 🤔 I mean, people are what people are, right? A man ought to love his woman regardless, but can you really blame him for not loving a surly, provoking, nagging woman? 🤔

I posit no one will say such a thing to any significant audience of even Christian women, much less, non-believers. It seems everyone focuses on the men and their lack of leadership, and no one wants to highlight women and their lack of submission or "lovable-ness".

Here is some practical advice for women: be in subjection to your husbands, be lovable, be desirable, be the kind of wife he can easily and joyfully lead. 🙂
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Don’t disagree with you about most women. I’m only responsible for mine though.
 
NBTX11 said:
Exactly what I just said. If he hasn't been removed from command or authority, he has the ability to give orders that must be followed.
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And sometimes these people are removed from command by the actions or inactions of their subordinates. Welcome to reality.

True authority comes from credibility.

Too many men run around claiming authority but doing nothing to be credible leaders and then they whine about why no one respects their authority. It's because no one respects them at all.

I've known men who have complained that no women will even look at them. Yet Scripture told them they were supposed to be in charge and that women have to submit to them. They don't even understand that they have no authority over a woman who isn't even married to them. :rolleyes:

I've seen them come and go on this site. Mostly single men who go on and on about the authority they claim over women who won't even date them. I applaud them for their sense of authority and I hope they enjoy celibacy.

I know this is a Biblical site and we focus on God's Law but the reality is we live in a world where even fundamentalist, Torah Keeping Christians can go to court and get a divorce. Lots of divorced men out there who will also testify to how their wife didn't obey them.

That's nice. Because guess what? In reality she doesn't have to.

So since you live in a country where you can't beat your wife, you can't have a judge behead her for disobedience, you pretty much can't force her to do diddly for you then all that's left is persuasion.

Plenty of men on this site have this figured this out. And not only does one woman love them there's often one or more who do too.

Be one of these men.
 
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