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How Should God’s People Relate to Sons of Darkness?

ContraMundum

ContraMundum

Member
Male
[Eph 5:3-11 NKJV] 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but now [you are] light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose [them].

[2Co 6:14-18 NKJV] 14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among [them]. I will be their God, And they shall be My people." 17 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." 18 "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty."

My wife’s post has lead me to create this post for a more “Iron sharpens iron” environment. You can find that post here.

This question in various forms is one that I’ve been trying answer as I read The Scriptures and try to be a doer of The Word. There are many passages and scenarios that come to mind that I’m trying to fit together to produce a working framework for how I engage with the world. Here some basic principles that I find to be useful in doing so:
  1. Women and children are more easily influenced and susceptible to deception, which they need protection from by their covering.
  2. Light and darkness have no business being in fellowship. Same for the righteous & wicked.
  3. Faith without works is dead. I expect to know those with faith by their works.
  4. We should be a witness to the world (even by close contact), but are not to be of nor conform to the world.
  5. We are to be a holy, set apart/peculiar, people.
These principles produces in me a desire to be cautious of whom I connect with, and to what degree. Being responsible for my family’s care, I then believe I should discern the same things according to their needs.

Here is my initial framework for how this looks in reality:
  1. My house will not even have a meal with anyone who calls themself a brother that is sexually immoral, covetous, an idolater, a reviler, a drunkard, or an extortioner. (1 Cor 5:11)
  2. As much as I am able, I will keep my women and children apart from those that would encourage/influence them to sin while they are weak in the faith unless properly guarded. This would mean to keep my children apart from public/secular education, activities, & gatherings.
  3. My house will strive to only do business and build community with God’s people wherever possible.
  4. To the degree and fashion we are called, my house will preach the gospel and minister to those in darkness with the purpose of calling them to repentance and faith.
  5. Blood ties have no affect on this framework, so long as there is no commandment being broken. (Mat 12:46-50) Such as honoring your father and mother.
I am by no means settled on this and would be grateful for any feedback. I would also really like to know the framework of anyone that would like to share. I’d be happy to clarify anything further and provide further scripture for consideration.
 
Apparently the Son of God didn't have a problem hanging out with sinners.

Matthew 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' But wisdom is proved right by her deeds."

Matthew 5:13-16 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

I think there is a way to by an ambassador to the world but not of the world. We have a purpose to help those who are lost. Shying away from those in need I think defeats that purpose.
 
Cap said:
Apparently the Son of God didn't have a problem hanging out with sinners.

Matthew 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' But wisdom is proved right by her deeds."

Matthew 5:13-16 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

I think there is a way to by an ambassador to the world but not of the world. We have a purpose to help those who are lost. Shying away from those in need I think defeats that purpose.
Click to expand...
Cap said this so well. It is a conundrum, you want to be a good witness but you also want to protect your family.

My suggestion is to meditate on what @Cap said and ask the Holy Spirit to show you which family events to attend or not attend.
 
Cap said:
Apparently the Son of God didn't have a problem hanging out with sinners.

Matthew 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' But wisdom is proved right by her deeds."

Matthew 5:13-16 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

I think there is a way to by an ambassador to the world but not of the world. We have a purpose to help those who are lost. Shying away from those in need I think defeats that purpose.
Click to expand...

I'm not following your train of thought. What do you mean by "hanging out"? And in what way is this conflicting with anything I've said? I fail to see how what I've suggested keeps us from being ambassadors, helping those who are lost, or shying away from the needy.
 
Phillip said:
Cap said this so well. It is a conundrum, you want to be a good witness but you also want to protect your family.

My suggestion is to meditate on what @Cap said and ask the Holy Spirit to show you which family events to attend or not attend.
Click to expand...
It's a conundrum indeed. It's quite the task to be sure we not a walking contradiction. May the Holy Spirit lead us in truth, righteousness, and wisdom.
 
ContraMundum said:
I'm not following your train of thought. What do you mean by "hanging out"? And in what way is this conflicting with anything I've said? I fail to see how what I've suggested keeps us from being ambassadors, helping those who are lost, or shying away from the needy.
Click to expand...
I feel your heart on this brother. We are no longer set apart, a peculiar people. We need that sense of separateness again. We can minister to people without acting like we're not different. We are different. We can be in the world but not of the world. Jesus went to where the world was. He didn't necssarily bring in to His home. He kept Himself separate in that His close fellowship was with the 12.
 
ZecAustin said:
I feel your heart on this brother. We are no longer set apart, a peculiar people. We need that sense of separateness again. We can minister to people without acting like we're not different. We are different. We can be in the world but not of the world. Jesus went to where the world was. He didn't necssarily bring in to His home. He kept Himself separate in that His close fellowship was with the 12.
Click to expand...
It also seems that we forget that we are all members of His body with different functions from one another. I find myself too easily calling people my friends more than calling them to repentance and faith.
 
Our family went though this many years ago. Due to our beliefs a separation occurred between us and the rest of the family. Sure in many ways that separation could be seen to have been a protection for us when we were kids, but, the rest of the family just saw us as nutters and due to that they would not discuss the scriptures with anyone. they simply didn't want to be involved due to the divisions created within our family.
John 17: 15 puts it well " I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one."
If our family does not have interaction with others within the family then how do our children learn to stand up for Christ, or even themselves? How do they make their own beliefs solid for themselves?
The world is a big and sometimes a nasty place and the pressures are many. Even though we can see the issues within our own family, it is still a safer place to train our children rather than insulate them, then throw them to the wolves when they get older.
Think of Noah, or even Lot. they lived among those God was about to destroy but they stayed loyal and true to their God.
We can either isolate our family from the rest of our family, or we can use those same people to teach our children and help them to be strong in their faith. Even with all of their flaws our extended family will be kinder and at least have a love for us that is not to be found outside the family.
The reward comes when we see our children stand up for themselves and their beliefs with members of our own family, for then we can be sure that they will stand firm with all other opposes.
They way I see it from my family history is this, you have an opportunity to train your children in a controlled environment, its possibly a good idea to not waste that opportunity.
I have seen other families where the children were kept totally separate from others and the results for those families, in the long term were not good.
Think on it some. Discuss it with your wife and then even with the children as a family, but do so with prayers and supplication and the decision you make as both a family head and indeed a family will be right for you.
 
My husband is the sort that would love nothing better then to live way out and just be a family.
If it wasn't for his work bringing him in constant contact with others, he would have very little interest in social contacts.
We made the retreat in Tucson last year in April and that was really an answer to prayer for me. My three manly escorts enjoyed it, but they were all out of their comfort zone, even with other wonderful believers!

I appreciate your desire to protect your family. Hubby and I have tried to guard our children too by home schooling, and being cautious about outside influences, especially for the younger children.

Our older children have had more involvement outside the home, in the community and our sons in working with their dad. The compliments and praise we get from others is encouraging, and makes me think they are being light and salt, and are old fashioned young people in a modern world.

It's not easy or pleasant to be around people that are lost and have no moral foundations, it is certainly easier to fellieship with like minded folk. But like it is with a online search, if the search parameters are too narrow you get no matches.
I think some other believers we would have befriended had that issue with us, and excluded us because our world view was not in complete harmony with theirs.
Probably a loss for both families.

I really feel that true faith enables us to reach others, even in places we didn't think we would go, but fear makes us ineffective. We each have a sphere of influence, and they vary.
We were friends for years with a man our children called uncle, he even worked with our family for years, and ate here on Thanksgiving. But he got bitter after his wife left him, and changed from professing christianity to telling our children there was no God. Hubby shut that down immediately. Our adult sons still have some contact with him, but it is minimal now. Our oldest was quite shocked when he realized this "uncle" was not a believer. He saw that for himself, as we had not talked the uncle down, or expressed that at that time.

It looks like there are many replies that are thoughtful and well written. This is just my half a cents worth of thinking in print.
 
ContraMundum said:
I'm not following your train of thought. What do you mean by "hanging out"? And in what way is this conflicting with anything I've said? I fail to see how what I've suggested keeps us from being ambassadors, helping those who are lost, or shying away from the needy.
Click to expand...

Then I'm not following your thought either. It sounded to me like you are trying to separate yourself and your family from the world. Maybe I miss understood.

All I know is that we are to be disciples and bring the Good News to the world. I know it's not easy. And I could easily identify with @Joleneakamama statements about her male family members, but still finding comfort in my own home all the time, does seem to limit the filing of my cup with what God would have for me. And I agree with @Aussies, it's a good challenge, it keeps you on your biblical toes.
 
ZecAustin said:
We can be in the world but not of the world. Jesus went to where the world was. He didn't necssarily bring in to His home. He kept Himself separate in that His close fellowship was with the 12.
Click to expand...

The Son of God didn't have a home. And there are many places He would go without the close fellowship of the 12.
 
Aussies said:
Our family went though this many years ago. Due to our beliefs a separation occurred between us and the rest of the family. Sure in many ways that separation could be seen to have been a protection for us when we were kids, but, the rest of the family just saw us as nutters and due to that they would not discuss the scriptures with anyone. they simply didn't want to be involved due to the divisions created within our family.
John 17: 15 puts it well " I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one."
If our family does not have interaction with others within the family then how do our children learn to stand up for Christ, or even themselves? How do they make their own beliefs solid for themselves?
The world is a big and sometimes a nasty place and the pressures are many. Even though we can see the issues within our own family, it is still a safer place to train our children rather than insulate them, then throw them to the wolves when they get older.
Think of Noah, or even Lot. they lived among those God was about to destroy but they stayed loyal and true to their God.
We can either isolate our family from the rest of our family, or we can use those same people to teach our children and help them to be strong in their faith. Even with all of their flaws our extended family will be kinder and at least have a love for us that is not to be found outside the family.
The reward comes when we see our children stand up for themselves and their beliefs with members of our own family, for then we can be sure that they will stand firm with all other opposes.
They way I see it from my family history is this, you have an opportunity to train your children in a controlled environment, its possibly a good idea to not waste that opportunity.
I have seen other families where the children were kept totally separate from others and the results for those families, in the long term were not good.
Think on it some. Discuss it with your wife and then even with the children as a family, but do so with prayers and supplication and the decision you make as both a family head and indeed a family will be right for you.
Click to expand...
I agree with inoculation, which seems to be generally what you are promoting here, but I find it easy to confuse that with pure exposure. Training our children up in the ways of YHWH is spoken of and elaborated on in scripture. I am trying to craft an understanding that first and foremost recognizes His instructions as sufficient for making my children a complete man of God and thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim 3:16-17) Even inoculation takes a back seat to me if there is no precept behind it and instances that warrent concern for it. I've witnessed and heard of many occasions where a family tries to "hide" their kids from the outside world only to find them torn apart by wolves when they throw them in their den. What I've noticed about these families is they were never truly training their children, setting them apart, nor properly directing them toward a future. They even give their daughters away or allow thier sons to leave to a den of wolves.

I will say also, I do not pursue the kindness nor the "love" of those that are blood related. The enemies that kiss you are more dangerous than the ones outside. (Prov 27:6) Family sounds like an insidious backdoor for letting our guard down and ignoring that they are still our enemies too. (James 4:4)

Even if I tend to think a bit differently, I do thank you for the encouragement.
 
Joleneakamama said:
My husband is the sort that would love nothing better then to live way out and just be a family.
If it wasn't for his work bringing him in constant contact with others, he would have very little interest in social contacts.
We made the retreat in Tucson last year in April and that was really an answer to prayer for me. My three manly escorts enjoyed it, but they were all out of their comfort zone, even with other wonderful believers!

I appreciate your desire to protect your family. Hubby and I have tried to guard our children too by home schooling, and being cautious about outside influences, especially for the younger children.

Our older children have had more involvement outside the home, in the community and our sons in working with their dad. The compliments and praise we get from others is encouraging, and makes me think they are being light and salt, and are old fashioned young people in a modern world.

It's not easy or pleasant to be around people that are lost and have no moral foundations, it is certainly easier to fellieship with like minded folk. But like it is with a online search, if the search parameters are too narrow you get no matches.
I think some other believers we would have befriended had that issue with us, and excluded us because our world view was not in complete harmony with theirs.
Probably a loss for both families.

I really feel that true faith enables us to reach others, even in places we didn't think we would go, but fear makes us ineffective. We each have a sphere of influence, and they vary.
We were friends for years with a man our children called uncle, he even worked with our family for years, and ate here on Thanksgiving. But he got bitter after his wife left him, and changed from professing christianity to telling our children there was no God. Hubby shut that down immediately. Our adult sons still have some contact with him, but it is minimal now. Our oldest was quite shocked when he realized this "uncle" was not a believer. He saw that for himself, as we had not talked the uncle down, or expressed that at that time.

It looks like there are many replies that are thoughtful and well written. This is just my half a cents worth of thinking in print.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your thoughts. Your anecdote sounds similar to what I have in mind from the limited details you've shared. I do want to emphasize that I by no means am trying to avoid people that are not easy or pleasant to be around. Nor is fear a driving force behind me. I desperately want to discover what is expedient and best emulates what the whole of Scripture presents me with. Refining my understanding prior to having kids is important to me so I do not get caught unprepared and without The Word being a lamp to my feet or light to my path. I also do not think those whom my house would fellowship with must be in complete harmony with our worldview. This is not the exclusion I am seeking, though I am not willing to compromise what is important to find a match.
 
Cap said:
Then I'm not following your thought either. It sounded to me like you are trying to separate yourself and your family from the world. Maybe I miss understood.

All I know is that we are to be disciples and bring the Good News to the world. I know it's not easy. And I could easily identify with @Joleneakamama statements about her male family members, but still finding comfort in my own home all the time, does seem to limit the filing of my cup with what God would have for me. And I agree with @Aussies, it's a good challenge, it keeps you on your biblical toes.
Click to expand...
That's okay. You may think that by separate I mean total isolation. Perhaps you could use an example to better understand what I'm sharing.

I go out and buy a plot of land with some brothers with simlar values or on my own. Or maybe I join a community who has already done so. We prepare our land and begin growing food, then we build our houses. Our houses fellowship and gather together to praise the most high. The men then, according to their gifts, go out and try to make disciples starting with those closest to them. They may meet people in their homes, diners, parks, malls. They minister to the needy, preach the gospel, and make themselves known. This is all backed by the wives and children caring for the domestic affairs at home. As seems fitting, wives and/or children may accompany them in these excursions.

Maybe I'm missing some things, but I hope that gives you a better mental image of what you think I'm considering.
 
Cap said:
The Son of God didn't have a home. And there are many places He would go without the close fellowship of the 12.
Click to expand...
This is good to remember. Paul too went from place to place and didn't seem to have a home either. This is why I mention that we are different members with different functions. It seems there may still be those called to a "nomadic" life to spread the gospel as widely as possible. The question then becomes, are men with families to support called to this mission? I would think not given that it seems impossible to satisfy your duty as a husband and father while at the same time not having a home.

Saying that Yeshua's close fellowship was with the 12 is not saying he never went to places without that fellowship. I find that you might be reading into some things I've said and it seems you may be doing the same here. Just something to look out for.:)
 
ContraMundum said:
That's okay. You may think that by separate I mean total isolation. Perhaps you could use an example to better understand what I'm sharing.

I go out and buy a plot of land with some brothers with simlar values or on my own. Or maybe I join a community who has already done so. We prepare our land and begin growing food, then we build our houses. Our houses fellowship and gather together to praise the most high. The men then, according to their gifts, go out and try to make disciples starting with those closest to them. They may meet people in their homes, diners, parks, malls. They minister to the needy, preach the gospel, and make themselves known. This is all backed by the wives and children caring for the domestic affairs at home. As seems fitting, wives and/or children may accompany them in these excursions.

Maybe I'm missing some things, but I hope that gives you a better mental image of what you think I'm considering.
Click to expand...

OK I get what you are saying and can see your point. I can see that as reasonable (not that what I think matters) and yes as @ZecAustin eluded to, as times get worse, more separation of certain family members from that evil may be necessary. But, I would still consider family as part of the field we are to try and harvest first. And if they are willing to be around you there may be a reason. I have found that sometimes individuals that are lost do find some kind of peace in our home because we allow the presents of the Holy Spirit to operate at will, and some how they feel it not knowing what it is and they like being there even if we disagree on such matters.

Edit: I said that we allow the Holy Spirit to operate in our home, I think I should have said, we are open to His workings. I'm not in the position to 'allow' God's Spirit to do anything.
 
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ContraMundum said:
Here is my initial framework for how this looks in reality:
  1. My house will not even have a meal with anyone who calls themself a brother that is sexually immoral, covetous, an idolater, a reviler, a drunkard, or an extortioner. (1 Cor 5:11)
  2. As much as I am able, I will keep my women and children apart from those that would encourage/influence them to sin while they are weak in the faith unless properly guarded. This would mean to keep my children apart from public/secular education, activities, & gatherings.
  3. My house will strive to only do business and build community with God’s people wherever possible.
  4. To the degree and fashion we are called, my house will preach the gospel and minister to those in darkness with the purpose of calling them to repentance and faith.
  5. Blood ties have no affect on this framework, so long as there is no commandment being broken. (Mat 12:46-50) Such as honoring your father and mother.
I am by no means settled on this and would be grateful for any feedback. I would also really like to know the framework of anyone that would like to share. I’d be happy to clarify anything further and provide further scripture for consideration.
Click to expand...

My thoughts on each:

1) Great God almighty if the church ever took this seriously, it would have solved a great many problems before they ever cropped up.

2) I see that as your prerogative. In practice I'm not much different. I also believe that we are meant to be salt and light, and that women and children can and should join this war. I was called at an early age and served alone in my home and alone in my public school in the bay area. The devil is in those schools, true. So are his victims, whom we must rescue. I say this not to dissuade you, but to consider another perspective on the question.

3) Once again: Your prerogative. Also again, in practice I'm not much different. I have friends who are unbelievers, but we have so little in common these days. I believe that there is potential to have good friends and community with unbelievers, and that's part of how the gospel gets spread. It's just not something that I have done with any success.

4) Well for sure!

5) I don't really know what this means?
 
Cap said:
OK I get what you are saying and can see your point. I can see that as reasonable (not that what I think matters) and yes as @ZecAustin eluded to, as times get worse, more separation of certain family members from that evil may be necessary. But, I would still consider family as part of the field we are to try and harvest first. And if they are willing to be around you there may be a reason. I have found that sometimes individuals that are lost do find some kind of peace in our home because we allow the presents of the Holy Spirit to operate at will, and some how they feel it not knowing what it is and they like being there even if we disagree on such matters.

Edit: I said that we allow the Holy Spirit to operate in our home, I think I should have said, we are open to His workings. I'm not in the position to 'allow' God's Spirit to do anything.
Click to expand...
I sympathize with the desire to share the gospel with family first, as I think it is only natural since we have a bond with them that we do not have with strangers.
 
Slumberfreeze said:
2) I see that as your prerogative. In practice I'm not much different. I also believe that we are meant to be salt and light, and that women and children can and should join this war. I was called at an early age and served alone in my home and alone in my public school in the bay area. The devil is in those schools, true. So are his victims, whom we must rescue. I say this not to dissuade you, but to consider another perspective on the question.
Click to expand...

This is actually how I used to think, though I question now if it is a good idea to intentionally place someone in that situation. God may be able to teach a lesson by directly telling Hosea to marry a harlot, but I would advise anyone to avoid adding one into his family unless God has made it clear to do so. As for rescueing kids in public school, I would think the best way to do that would be to rescue their parents rather than have strangers participate in training my children.

Slumberfreeze said:
3) Once again: Your prerogative. Also again, in practice I'm not much different. I have friends who are unbelievers, but we have so little in common these days. I believe that there is potential to have good friends and community with unbelievers, and that's part of how the gospel gets spread. It's just not something that I have done with any success.
Click to expand...

This too is how I used to think. I question this now partially because of the lack of success I have had and seen in others. Perhaps we are trying to come up with our own ways to spread the gospel and some of the tools presented in the Scriptures are being left underdeveloped. I think people should want to be a part of what we have, but in order for that to happen they have to NOT be part of what we have. It seems to me Yeshua and His people are like an exclusive club; where the members are passing out invitations to everyone they meet and discipling those who show up with ears to hear. But everywhere I go many people walk into a building every sunday to be a part of a "community" but are just as lost as the next guy.

As for number 5, perhaps I've been confusing on that one. I simply mean that whether someone is blood related or not makes no difference to me in terms of my degree of involvement with them. I don't care if someone is my brother by blood, I will decide how to engage with them based on the Scriptures.
 
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