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How West was born

MemeFan said:
I'm commenting secular works of Puritans, not their faith.

And we can apply same criteria for all faiths because universal truth in economic matters is within reach of mankind. Faith is different because we can't use same scale of "measurement", not have objective measures.
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You are free to choose to operate by the social economic philosophy (and comprehensive worldview) of libertarianism if you wish.

I also went through a libertarian phase, and still have strong libertarian leanings and sympathies. I think it is one of the better functionally atheistic worldviews. It seems preferable to Marxism and Feminism.

On the other hand, I actually believe that the God of the Bible is real, that He became a Man, walked among us, died in our place, rose again, ascended to heaven, and will someday return, raising the dead, judging the world, condemning the ungodly, and giving eternal joy to those who belong to Him.

This is a comprehensive worldview based on the Bible, and I intend to have the Man Jesus Christ as the absolute functional foundation of my life and not an any particular philosophy. I am sincerely persuaded that that Man is the Absolute Reality with us, YAHWEH in the flesh, Emmanuel.

The Reality of Jesus Christ changes absolutely everything.

One of my favorite authors Joel Salatin refers to himself as a Christian Libertarian Environmentalist Capitalist (and in that specific order of priority). That makes quite a bit of sense to me.
 
MemeFan said:
Christianity can easily be used to support tyranny. Europe did have absolute monarchies. Just forbid freedom of conscience to save souls, drill Romans 13 into population to absolutely obey ruler.
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Within a largely Christian cultural context, those promoting tyranny will use (twisting and perverting) Scripture to try to support their actions. I don't think we can blame that on Christianity. Wicked men will do wicked things. Their father the devil used Scripture when tempting the Lord Jesus.

When discussing Romans 13, we have to consider the entire passage, as well as all the rest of the Bible, and not rip the first couple verses out of context, ignoring the rest, as tyrants attempt to do.

Romans 13 tells us that governing authorities are servants of God, that they are devoted to promoting good, and punishing evil. God and His Law are high above them, and they are required to serve Him, for our benefit, and not seek their own selfish interests.

Tyrants who seek their own benefit, punishing good, and rewarding evil are not legitimate civil authorities. They are rebels, and will fall under the wrath of the Lamb.

All earthly kings are mere vassals and servants of the King of Kings.

It was Protestant Christians (like Samuel Rutherford author of "Lex Rex") who showed that the Bible doesn't support absolute monarchy, and that the Law of God rules over earthy kings.
 
Bartato said:
Famous puritan John Bunyan was an itinerant repairer of basic household tools (tinker) who was imprisoned by the State for many years for preaching the Bible without authorization. That hardly sounds "elite".

Oliver Cromwell on the other hand 🤔
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I had to google John. I'm not suprised. He was Puritan in England where his kind wasn't welcome.

I should mentioned I dislike New England Puritans. Guys from run from religious persecution in England only to practice same in New England. Go figure.
 
Bartato said:
You are free to choose to operate by the social economic philosophy (and comprehensive worldview) of libertarianism if you wish.

I also went through a libertarian phase, and still have strong libertarian leanings and sympathies. I think it is one of the better functionally atheistic worldviews. It seems preferable to Marxism and Feminism.

On the other hand, I actually believe that the God of the Bible is real, that He became a Man, walked among us, died in our place, rose again, ascended to heaven, and will someday return, raising the dead, judging the world, condemning the ungodly, and giving eternal joy to those who belong to Him.

This is a comprehensive worldview based on the Bible, and I intend to have the Man Jesus Christ as the absolute functional foundation of my life and not an any particular philosophy. I am sincerely persuaded that that Man is the Absolute Reality with us, YAHWEH in the flesh, Emmanuel.

The Reality of Jesus Christ changes absolutely everything.

One of my favorite authors Joel Salatin refers to himself as a Christian Libertarian Environmentalist Capitalist (and in that specific order of priority). That makes quite a bit of sense to me.
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Why people here when they run into my libertarians leanings start to write how they are Christians? I don't get it.

Libertarianism isn't nothing more than non-aggresion principle and all it's (numerous) aplications or (my favourite) legal theory about valid usage of force.

As such it's not comprehensive worldwiev. It's says literally nothing on marriage except spuse beating is bad and marriage should be voluntary.

By the way, integration of libertariasm with Christianity is dead simple. You are allowed to beat murders, thiefs and kindnappers. For rest of sins only punishement not allowed is violence without explicit permission of all affected persons (exile is also option).That's literally all.
 
MemeFan said:
Why people here when they run into my libertarians leanings start to write how they are Christians? I don't get it.

Libertarianism isn't nothing more than non-aggresion principle and all it's (numerous) aplications or (my favourite) legal theory about valid usage of force.
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I agree, libertarianism is an atheist expression of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Bastiat's "The Law" is brief, absolutely foundational reading and very Christian.

I tend to describe myself as a "morally conservative social libertarian".
 
FollowingHim said:
I agree, libertarianism is an atheist expression of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Bastiat's "The Law" is brief, absolutely foundational reading and very Christian.
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It's not.

Cheating and adultery aren't welcome in any good society. Yet, libertarianism doesn't forbid them. Why? Both activities aren't violent.

NAP by itself can't be basis of any good society. Far more is needed in additional principles. But it can do one very important thing. It can justify removal of yourself from bad people and you living in company of like-minded people. This by itself is enough to stop tyranny.

It follows naturally from freedom of association which follows from being self-owners which follows from always having agency which follows from Lord's design of man.
 
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Bartato said:
Within a largely Christian cultural context, those promoting tyranny will use (twisting and perverting) Scripture to try to support their actions. I don't think we can blame that on Christianity. Wicked men will do wicked things. Their father the devil used Scripture when tempting the Lord Jesus.

When discussing Romans 13, we have to consider the entire passage, as well as all the rest of the Bible, and not rip the first couple verses out of context, ignoring the rest, as tyrants attempt to do.

Romans 13 tells us that governing authorities are servants of God, that they are devoted to promoting good, and punishing evil. God and His Law are high above them, and they are required to serve Him, for our benefit, and not seek their own selfish interests.

Tyrants who seek their own benefit, punishing good, and rewarding evil are not legitimate civil authorities. They are rebels, and will fall under the wrath of the Lamb.

All earthly kings are mere vassals and servants of the King of Kings.

It was Protestant Christians (like Samuel Rutherford author of "Lex Rex") who showed that the Bible doesn't support absolute monarchy, and that the Law of God rules over earthy kings.
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Problem not mentioned is what governing institutions? Do you realize any group of at least 2 people has it's own rules how to treat others? Without agreement in rules how can two walk together? They can't.

So any family, business, friendship always contains governance. What is real issue must there be mandatory governance body with monopoly on force (we call this body today state)? Or is better to spread right to use force throught society (medieval way of checks amd balances)?

Thing is that without NAP we also lose ability to live our faith according to our consience or so it seems. I don't know any other way to stop Christian "soul keepers" from issuing regulations for my religious life. And them defining what are sins in my life. I don't want to live with such people.

And especially I don't to live with "brothers" for whom Christian brotherly love is him making rules for our "mutual benefits" which stop or harm me from improving my life, while keeping or making his life better. Such one-way trade are in long run suicidal.
 
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