Hunting is it allowed or forbidden? Is Judah right or wrong on this?

[IshChayil]

So there's been some discussion in the Passover 5778 thread about hunting.
This thread is open for anyone wanting to sound off on this topic.

In Jewish law it's forbidden though this is not explicitly listed as illegal in the torah.
Some torah observances are derived. In this case the sages derive that causing animal suffering is a sin and should be minimized.
Exceptions include saving a human life.
Many torah commands at times come into conflict and if you actually think they all just go smoothly then you aren't yet living torah fully.
A famous new Testament example where observing the humane treatment of animals clashes with not doing laborious activities is where Yeshua asks "who among you if his donkey falls in a ditch on the Sabbath day will not help it up?". Of course we don't leave the animal to suffer; we are allowed to violate the Sabbath in order to prevent animal suffering.
So this is in a nutshell the Jewish reasoning behind the illegality of hunting.
Some will appeal to Esau as a hunter and how Isaac enjoyed the meats Esau brought him. This is all true; but in the Messianic (i.e. jewish) cultureal understanding, Esau was a rasha, a wicked man so we do not use his example of life for anything.
If you are a hunter, let's not get mad about this I suspect there are many many many other commands you aren't keeping yet as a Hebrew Roots believer which can take precedence over putting your rifle down.

I'd like this thread to be open to everyone, maybe we'll find some new insights.
I'm not trying to impose my Jewish perspective on anyone here. I just want people to think about it; is it really kosher to cause extra suffering to an animal?
I'm hoping to learn some other perspectives on this as I've never understood the rationale.
I get it in the case of poor families trying to subsidize their meat; I don't get it as far as hobbyists go inasmuch as they are torah keepers.
Everyone is welcome in on this discussion.
Shabbat shalom

 

[The Revolting Man]

But wasn't it Isaac who told Esau to go hunt? The implications are that Isaac clearly approved of hunting. Primitive hunting at that. I'm not saying that's a valid argument but it seems like by your standard it would be.

 

[IshChayil]

But wasn't it Isaac who told Esau to go hunt? The implications are that Isaac clearly approved of hunting. Primitive hunting at that. I'm not saying that's a valid argument but it seems like by your standard it would be.

Yes, it was also Isaac who was thwarting G-d's intent that "the older shall serve the younger" as he clearly intended to bless Esau not Jacob; thus sinning.
even the patriarchs sin sometimes, though in the case of Isaac I think we can also make the case that the torah had not fully been given yet.
just things like circumcision, perhaps Sabbath was known, clean and unclean animals were known, etc.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Lol, but wait, that part of the Torah forbidding hunting still hasn't been given yet and we're supposed to abide by it. Why was Isaac exempted?

 

[IshChayil]

Lol, but wait, that part of the Torah forbidding hunting still hasn't been given yet and we're supposed to abide by it. Why was Isaac exempted?

Uhhh because it wasn't' given yet.
You can't hold someone responsible for violating a future law. This isn't future crime
Goodness Zec didn't you know that the Israelites married their aunts before it was forbidden?
Many things were only forbidden with the giving of the Torah. Heck Abraham married his own sister.

Yes in your words "WE are required to abide by torah"
NO, those who were not yet under torah were not required to abide by it.
We do of course have evidence that some moral concepts were known, perhaps cruelty to animals was known but I'm not prepared to make that claim.

 

[The Revolting Man]

But the part of Torah forbidding hunting hasn't been given yet. We still don't have that part. It's possible they cut it out to make room for the woman caught in adultery but if Isaac didn't have to obey a law he hadn't been given than why do we? Come on Ish, you're a smart guy and far more educated than me. Just admit that Torah doesn't forbid hunting and that in your opinion not hunting is a good way to align yourself with some of the principles contained in Torah.

While we're at it, what are the actual verses in the Bible all of this is based on?

 

[IshChayil]

But the part of Torah forbidding hunting hasn't been given yet. We still don't have that part. It's possible they cut it out to make room for the woman caught in adultery but if Isaac didn't have to obey a law he hadn't been given than why do we? Come on Ish, you're a smart guy and far more educated than me. Just admit that Torah doesn't forbid hunting and that in your opinion not hunting is a good way to align yourself with some of the principles contained in Torah.

While we're at it, what are the actual verses in the Bible all of this is based on?

Sorry Zec I'm not following.
You are asking if Isaac didn't have to obey a not-yet-given law then why do we?

G-d's continual revelation has different requirements from members of different covenants.
Isaac, frankly was not part of the Mosaic covenant. He did not agree to it because it didn't exist yet because there was no Moses yet.
Those of us whose ancestors signed on are bound to the covenant and have no choice.
Gentiles who have chosen to join Israel in this way are also bound by their own doing.

Why are you expecting Isaac to keep all the ungiven commands?
Don't get mad, I just am not following your line of thought.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I'm not following yours. I don't expect Isaac to follow ungiven commands. But for some reason you expect me to follow ungiven commands. Do you see the disconnect? There is no command in Torah not to hunt but you expect me to follow such a command. I'm curious as to why you wouldn't expect Isaac to follow it as well.

It seems like Moses isn't germaine to the topic since he didn't give a command not to hunt. There's no such Law. Isaac didn't have a Law not to bunt so he could hunt. I don't have a law not to hunt so why can't I hunt?

 

[The Revolting Man]

Wait a minute! Jesus would fish. Fish asphyxiate while struggling and gasping for breath. So was Jesus causing undue suffering to fish?

 

[IshChayil]

I'm not following yours. I don't expect Isaac to follow ungiven commands. But for some reason you expect me to follow ungiven commands. Do you see the disconnect? There is no command in Torah not to hunt but you expect me to follow such a command. I'm curious as to why you wouldn't expect Isaac to follow it as well.

It seems like Moses isn't germaine to the topic since he didn't give a command not to hunt. There's no such Law. Isaac didn't have a Law not to bunt so he could hunt. I don't have a law not to hunt so why can't I hunt?

OK I think we are on the same page now.
It is my understanding / Judah's and Levi's understanding that there are commands which show us not to do anything to hurt an animal unnecessarily.
This is both the Messianic Jewish perspective (Jews who believe in Yeshua) and the Orthodox Jewish perspective; none of us are liberal.

Some of the verses in bible which lend perspective:
Ecclesiastes 3:19-21
19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?

Psalm 147:9 He provides the animals with their food, and the young ravens, what they cry for.

Proverbs 12:10
Whoever is righteous has regard for the soul of his beast,
but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.

Exodus 23:5 if you see your enemy's donkey has fallen over because of it's heavy load, you must help it up...

Proverbs 27:23 You shall indeed know the face of your sheep, and set your heart on the condition of your herds

Exodus 23:12-13 ... command to let your animals rest on the sabbath day

Jonah 4:10-11
And should not I pity Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also much cattle?”
(G-d is pitying cattle even)

Matthew 10:29-31 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
(G-d cares even for sparrows, and we are so valuable we are valued in terms of "more than many sparrows")

Deuteronomy 25:4 When an ox is working in the grain,do not cover its mouth to keep it from eating.

Isaiah 11:6-8 A wolf will reside with a lamb, and a leopard will lie down with a young goat; an ox and a young lion will graze together, as a small child leads them along. A cow and a bear will graze together, their young will lie down together. A lion, like an ox, will eat straw. A baby will play over the hole of a snake; over the nest of a serpent an infant will put his hand.
(in Hashem's ideal world animals will play a huge part and won't even harm each other any more)

And as I mentioned earlier:
You can not eat the limb of a living animal (adds pain and suffering to the animal)

and as we are to emulate the L-rd, we can follow psalm 145:9
The Lord is good to all,
and his mercy is over all that he has made.
(all intends here animals, not mountains or rocks)

Wives want my attention so finishing up quickly:
Also as I mentioned in an earlier post; torah forbids eating a limb from a living animal, yoking 2 work animals together of different breeds (the one will push the other to exhaustion), There's a proverb about an evil man doesn't give water to his animals, aaaah gotta go.

So yes, G-d gave us a mind so we are able to think about His commands and there is a clear pattern of kindness to animals. We also see verses that inform us that animals have both "soul and spirit" so they have a higher value than some who think they have no spirit.
So the Jewish way of thinking (notice I'm not quoting the talmud or oral tradition to you), is "hey G-d sure cares for animals and is merciful on "His handiwork", He even is careful even when a sparrow drops (dies) and He cares, and we are made to be His imagers so we should represent Him here with our godly dominion, so OK hunting is out because it may (and often does) increase the suffering of a creature with a soul and spirit.
That's the rationale.
Since commandments at times come in conflict, starving families are permitted to hunt since humans come first and life comes first; we are allowed to eat pork if we are starving or unsure if we will gain access to food in the near future. Life comes first. The commands are often in situations where there is conflict so we are required to use reason and sometimes using reason means asking an elder or a judge who is an expert in thinking through this things so that we may reduce our sins/rebellions.

 

[The Revolting Man]

So this will probably be my last post on this topic because we're now at the rock bottom where there is no reconciling the two sides.

Obviously I am against being cruel to animals or acting inhumanely but those things are subjective values judgments and can't really be gleaned from scripture, much like dressing modestly isn't defined.

It's left up to us to discern with the help of the Holy Spirit how to apply those principles.

God doesn't ban women wearing pants so I can't ban women wearing pants. God doesn't ban hunting so I can't ban hunting. Now my wife almost never wears pants and I only pretend to hunt once or twice a year and never kill anything because I'm terrible at it. But I can't declare it sin. Only God can. And He didn't.

 

[IshChayil]

So this will probably be my last post on this topic because we're now at the rock bottom where there is no reconciling the two sides.

Obviously I am against being cruel to animals or acting inhumanely but those things are subjective values judgments and can't really be gleaned from scripture, much like dressing modestly isn't defined.

It's left up to us to discern with the help of the Holy Spirit how to apply those principles.

God doesn't ban women wearing pants so I can't ban women wearing pants. God doesn't ban hunting so I can't ban hunting. Now my wife almost never wears pants and I only pretend to hunt once or twice a year and never kill anything because I'm terrible at it. But I can't declare it sin. Only God can. And He didn't.

Let's avoid truisms like "He didn't" when I laid out a plethora of scripture outlining the ethics view that causing animals pain is bad in G-d's eyes.
I'm fine if your done in this thread for now, maybe you'll be inspired this weekend, but just saying "G-d didn't do it" has no value in a discussion.

I like the "I'm terrible at it" comment that made me laugh.
Maybe G-d is helping you?

 

[The Revolting Man]

Let's avoid truisms like "He didn't" when I laid out a plethora of scripture outlining the ethics view that causing animals pain is bad in G-d's eyes.
I'm fine if your done in this thread for now, maybe you'll be inspired this weekend, but just saying "G-d didn't do it" has no value in a discussion.

I like the "I'm terrible at it" comment that made me laugh.
Maybe G-d is helping you?

And this is why we will never resolve the topic. Because you take verses that say don't be mean to animals and then insert your definition of mean in as God's definition. God didn't define what mean. He didn't lay out a procedure for slaughtering animals in His Word (the Moses reference was more than vague) even though He set up his people to be shepherds. It seems like if it was this important to Him He would have told us specifically how not to sin. He didn't. Is He an unjust judge?

You may have a very good definition of what is cruel to animals. Or you might be completely off your rocker. But I know for a fact that no one should ever substitute man's words in for God's Words. God didn't say what being mean to animals looks like so we can't add to God's Words and fix His supposed oversight.

And this underlines all of our disagreements Ish. You think there are spiritual authorities between men and God and I do not. Only God gets to define sin and issue Laws and He will make them clear to us when He does. We will never accidentally or coincidentally sin. His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

 

[IshChayil]

And this is why we will never resolve the topic. Because you take verses that say don't be mean to animals and then insert your definition of mean in as God's definition. God didn't define what mean. He didn't lay out a procedure for slaughtering animals in His Word (the Moses reference was more than vague) even though He set up his people to be shepherds. It seems like if it was this important to Him He would have told us specifically how not to sin. He didn't. Is He an unjust judge?

You may have a very good definition of what is cruel to animals. Or you might be completely off your rocker. But I know for a fact that no one should ever substitute man's words in for God's Words. God didn't say what being mean to animals looks like so we can't add to God's Words and fix His supposed oversight.

And this underlines all of our disagreements Ish. You think there are spiritual authorities between men and God and I do not. Only God gets to define sin and issue Laws and He will make them clear to us when He does. We will never accidentally or coincidentally sin. His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

Not so, your authorities are your own Hebrew roots teachesr who spooked you about about the Jews and our scary traditions. The only difference is those guys are newbies...blind leading the blind scenario. I mean someone has you thinking that eating biblicallay is an option and not a commandment. That's not even true to Hebrew Roots instruction
Those are YOUR authorities.
That and KJV are your traditions.
Tradition!!! tradition

 

[IshChayil]

sorry if I'm getting annoying singing "tradition" about your positions Zec, I had some Shabbat wine and I"m a little giddy
BTW the rabbis whom you think I blindly follow forbid using a computer on shabbat, WASSSSUP!

 

[The Revolting Man]

Not so, your authorities are your own Hebrew roots teachesr who spooked you about about the Jews and our scary traditions. The only difference is those guys are newbies...blind leading the blind scenario. I mean someone has you thinking that eating biblicallay is an option and not a commandment. That's not even true to Hebrew Roots instruction
Those are YOUR authorities.
That and KJV are your traditions.
Tradition!!! tradition

I don't follow any Hebrew Roots teachers. Not one. I couldn't even name one. Eating Biblically is an option. There's no other way to reconcile the New Testament to itself let alone to the Old.

I will not accept anyone's traditions unless they directly help me observe God's Word. Not one. I don't celebrate Easter. I don't celebrate Hanukah. Traditions are what got us into the mess we're in. Traditions aren't going to get us out of the mess we're in.

There's nothing wrong with traditions if they're kept in their proper place. They can even be very good and helpful and illuminating. But they have to be kept in their proper place.

 

[IshChayil]

I don't follow any Hebrew Roots teachers. Not one. I couldn't even name one. Eating Biblically is an option. There's no other way to reconcile the New Testament to itself let alone to the Old.

I will not accept anyone's traditions unless they directly help me observe God's Word. Not one. I don't celebrate Easter. I don't celebrate Hanukah. Traditions are what got us into the mess we're in. Traditions aren't going to get us out of the mess we're in.

There's nothing wrong with traditions if they're kept in their proper place. They can even be very good and helpful and illuminating. But they have to be kept in their proper place.

Ok so you are NOT a torah keeper? I totally misunderstood your positions.
Why do you care to cut the throat of an innocent sheep for passover then if you don't keep torah?

I hear the same mantra from Hebrew roots teahers about "nothing wrong with tradition" blah blah blah except they always harp against traditions and rarely know any of them... that's why I thought you had some teacher or someone teaching you these things. the mantra and illogical fear of learning from Judah / Levi

 

[The Revolting Man]

I am Torah observant. At least so far as I understand it. I just don't see it as being mandatory although I think it's a good idea and I would recommend it. But I don't see anyway to make it mandatory in light of Romans 14.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

Nooooot a torah keeper here... or a hunter... but

Everyone is welcome in on this discussion.

so can i just...
Lev 17:13
And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust.

And Proverbs 12:27
The slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting but the substance of a diligent man is precious.

So being as how the Law codifies what must be done in the event of hunting, and does not prohibit hunting under any circumstances that I've ever seen, and calls a man lazy if he doesn't cook his kill...

I don't see how, if I were to keep torah, I would feel like the torah prohibited me from hunting except under duress and great need. Which commandment says that?

Of course we don't leave the animal to suffer; we are allowed to violate the Sabbath in order to prevent animal suffering.
So this is in a nutshell the Jewish reasoning behind the illegality of hunting.

In this case the sages derive that causing animal suffering is a sin and should be minimized.
Exceptions include saving a human life.

Then... since no-one can tell me that a humane kill involves ABSOLUTELY ZERO animal suffering. I honestly don't care how sharp the knife is or how trained the slaughterer. A needle prick is negligible suffering to me, but it is suffering nonetheless. Having my throat slit would be orders of magnitude worse..

Then the proper teaching should be that it is prohibited to eat meat, unless one eats the precise amount of meat ordained by one's rabbi/doctor to sustain life and the absolute least amount of meat necessary to keep the feasts. Doing more will cause the needless slaughter of animals and cause the suffering of animals who need not suffer or perish.

Unless one is allowed a certain sense of proportion, where one may learn that a certain amount of suffering is assumed in the manner that animals were given to us for food.

Gen 9:2-3
“The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given. Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant.

There are methods of slaughter that I cannot say involve much terror. In many cases the whole idea is to cause the animal as little shock as possible. Not what I call terror.

Fleeing an adversary that you don't understand while wounded and bleeding out from an arrow wound. Now that's terror.

Being kind and humane to animals depends largely on ownership.

....A righteous man regards the life of his animal... Which of you shall have a donkey or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not immediately pull him out on the sabbath day?... What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?... Thou shalt not see thy brother's ox or his sheep go astray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt in any case bring them again unto thy brother

I am not aware of any provision or responsibility given for the beasts of the field. You'll only be pulling a donkey out of a ditch if it's YOUR donkey. Or at the very least, your neighbor's donkey. If you see a wild donkey in a ditch on the Sabbath, I do believe that donkey will stay where it is.

A nod towards the spiritual principle

"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathers not with me scatters abroad."

Jesus is kind towards HIS sheep. There is no provision for the sheep that refuse to gather to Him.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Nooooot a torah keeper here... or a hunter... but



so can i just...
Lev 17:13
And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust.

And Proverbs 12:27
The slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting but the substance of a diligent man is precious.

So being as how the Law codifies what must be done in the event of hunting, and does not prohibit hunting under any circumstances that I've ever seen, and calls a man lazy if he doesn't cook his kill...

I don't see how, if I were to keep torah, I would feel like the torah prohibited me from hunting except under duress and great need. Which commandment says that?




Then... since no-one can tell me that a humane kill involves ABSOLUTELY ZERO animal suffering. I honestly don't care how sharp the knife is or how trained the slaughterer. A needle prick is negligible suffering to me, but it is suffering nonetheless. Having my throat slit would be orders of magnitude worse..

Then the proper teaching should be that it is prohibited to eat meat, unless one eats the precise amount of meat ordained by one's rabbi/doctor to sustain life and the absolute least amount of meat necessary to keep the feasts. Doing more will cause the needless slaughter of animals and cause the suffering of animals who need not suffer or perish.

Unless one is allowed a certain sense of proportion, where one may learn that a certain amount of suffering is assumed in the manner that animals were given to us for food.

Gen 9:2-3
“The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given. Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant.

There are methods of slaughter that I cannot say involve much terror. In many cases the whole idea is to cause the animal as little shock as possible. Not what I call terror.

Fleeing an adversary that you don't understand while wounded and bleeding out from an arrow wound. Now that's terror.

Being kind and humane to animals depends largely on ownership.

....A righteous man regards the life of his animal... Which of you shall have a donkey or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not immediately pull him out on the sabbath day?... What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?... Thou shalt not see thy brother's ox or his sheep go astray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt in any case bring them again unto thy brother

I am not aware of any provision or responsibility given for the beasts of the field. You'll only be pulling a donkey out of a ditch if it's YOUR donkey. Or at the very least, your neighbor's donkey. If you see a wild donkey in a ditch on the Sabbath, I do believe that donkey will stay where it is.

A nod towards the spiritual principle

"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathers not with me scatters abroad."

Jesus is kind towards HIS sheep. There is no provision for the sheep that refuse to gather to Him.

What he said.