No violation of Torah there. Two different mothers.
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Hunting is it allowed or forbidden? Is Judah right or wrong on this?
- Thread starter IshChayil
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No violation of Torah there. Two different mothers.
Say's the God who instituted animal sacrifices for sin?!?!?
Pain and suffering are a fact of life. Inescapable. I find this sort of reasoning born less of any clear command in scripture but of a cultural disconnect from agrarian life. Too often modern's and the urban types anthropomorphise animals leading to scewed approaches on such questions.
Levites also were taught by Moses to kill them "in the way that I have shown you" keep up
Our ancestors in the land of Israel were hardly urban types and neither am I.
Nice try though. wow people be luvin them some huntin'!
Hit and run here as I'm doing other stuff but...
animals being scared of man doesn't equal man hurting them for fun or sport...
the hunting in the verse you mentioned is trapping as was the tradition in ancient Israel, that's why it's qualified with "fowls".
Many verses allude to the bird caught in a bird trap in psalms and such... i.e. humane hunting
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Hunting? Your logic would apply equally to farmed livestock. If suffering prohibits hunting then we'd all best be vegans because hunting is often less terrifying than the slaughter of livestock.
Even worse, hunting with bows and rifles is almost always leaders to quicker deaths with less suffering than normal predation by other wildlife.
Is God the author of suffering? Must the wolf become a vegan too? I see little air between your arguments and that of radical animal rights advocates.
It's not a logic issue.
The kosher slaughter is as humane as possible oooh I think I know the problem we actually started talking about this on another thread so I assumed you'd read all my comments on this.
I'll just summarize this thread grew out of another thread about passover where I was recommending to folks that they NOT kill a lamb themselves for Passover 1: Yeshua is already our Passover lamb so no need to do this and 2: unless they know how to humanely slaughter it's best to have a professional do it.
ANimal suffering in slaughter is unavoidable, my point is to minimize it that's all; this is consistent with Jewish halachah (law). So in essence I'm defending the Jewish (Judah/Levi) position on hunting here (if there are any other Jews on this site now would be a nice time to step up
No deep logical connections other than demonstrating scripture that G-d cares about animal suffering. I'm avoiding using quotes from the sages or Jewish ethical works as I know that will be summarily rejected here because hey, what could those guys know right?
Hope that clears things up. I know people love their hunting so this will be hard to get them to step outside of that, and I also know that unless they are torah keepers it'll be even harder but the discussion is worth having. Already there are stereotypes that anyone against hunting is some city slicker. I grew up in a place where we couldn't see our neighbors; not exactly an urbanite. anyway there are reasons the world to come are illustrated without having even predators, even animals wont harm each other or us. This is Hashem's ideal and we are His imagers and no I'm not vegan and I'm not a hippy lib no matter how I may have been slandered.
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absolute violation of torah brother,
ervat achotekha bat avikha o vat immekha....lo tegaleh
"nakedness of your sister daughter of your father or daughter of your mother you shall not uncover..."Leviticus 18;9 and again in Levit. 18:11
"nakedness of the daughter of the wife of your father born to your father , your sister is she, do not uncover her nakedness"
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Thank you for the context.
Have you ever killed a sheep?
Slaughter plants are run by the lowest skilled labor available. It is not hard to humanely kill an animal. And anything lovingly killed at home will endure far less stress than going through the packing plant. Especially if you personally raised the animal.
I haven't hunted in years. But I have killed most of my own meat for over a decade. The hardest part for most people isn't the mechanics, its the emotions. This isn't rocket science.
Have you ever killed a sheep?
Slaughter plants are run by the lowest skilled labor available. It is not hard to humanely kill an animal. And anything lovingly killed at home will endure far less stress than going through the packing plant. Especially if you personally raised the animal.
I haven't hunted in years. But I have killed most of my own meat for over a decade. The hardest part for most people isn't the mechanics, its the emotions. This isn't rocket science.
Most hunters I know eat their kill. I've only known one who would not eat his own kill, but he gave the meat to others who could make use of it. Are they allowed to hunt, kill and eat, but not enjoy it?
I can't find any translation that backs up your assertion here.
A word study of tsuwd H6679 sees the usage of this word in a little more broad light than you're making it appear.
Funny that was my major at school, rocket science
(we called it differently though)I couldn't resist. Wife bought me a t-shirt that said "Actually I am a r.s. and had a cute rocket on it" lol.
No sir, I'm forbidden by Jewish law to slaughter a sheep. So you sound pretty experienced was it nonsense what the other fella was saying about the kosher slaughter
being the most humane, and the knife is super sharp, and being able to hit just the jugular and not other things?
I've always heard that but always wondered how true it was or if it was more hype than anything else.
Good point about the stress of taking the animal to a plant for processing. I was suggesting actually (or I meant to suggest) just buy the meat and eat the meat since we already have our true passover lamb anyway (Messiah).
Yes you're right, it's late by me and I was thinking just that Israelites as an agricultural society did not really need to hunt so I assumed too much in calling it for sport perhaps?
That Hebrews hunted with traps can be found in ANE texts; not just Hebrews but other surrounding societies.
The Hebrew for the text here qualifies the the birds are involved with the conjunction "o of" "fowl"; in Hebrew syntax is very important as I've shared in other posts.
Sorry I didn't' check any English translations, I saw the verse and checked my bible (Hebrew).
Rocket Scientist. Funny.
In the industry slaughter by throat slit is considered far less humane. It is a slow death. Just the jugular and not other things? There are a few layers of other things before you hit the jugular. And hitting the jugular is not always as easy as it seems.
Standard USDA kill methods are virtually immediate lights out when applied correctly. But even those are not the most important problems for animal suffering. Most of the suffering is actually in the lead up to death in how the facility is structured and how you handle the animals.
Practically speaking, going out to feed your lamb and then popping him in the head with the .22 while he eats from the bucket is the most humane way to go. Pleasant comfort in its normal surroundings with its loving master right up to the final moment and quick death. If you raised it, the most humane way to kill it will always be yourself, as opposed to hauling it to strange surroundings, penned up with mean abusive strange animals, and then handled by strange men and killed by someone who doesn't care anything about humane treatment.
Now any of those methods are faster than say, a misplaced arrow. But that too is far quicker than being chased all afternoon by a pack of wolves; who then proceed to let the carcass rot after a few bites as they were just killing for the fun of it. If the animal is lucky it dies quick. Unlucky and they eat you from the rear and you ball in suffering while watching them eat your guts out.
Nature as designed by God is far crueler than most people can conceive.
In the industry slaughter by throat slit is considered far less humane. It is a slow death. Just the jugular and not other things? There are a few layers of other things before you hit the jugular. And hitting the jugular is not always as easy as it seems.
Standard USDA kill methods are virtually immediate lights out when applied correctly. But even those are not the most important problems for animal suffering. Most of the suffering is actually in the lead up to death in how the facility is structured and how you handle the animals.
Practically speaking, going out to feed your lamb and then popping him in the head with the .22 while he eats from the bucket is the most humane way to go. Pleasant comfort in its normal surroundings with its loving master right up to the final moment and quick death. If you raised it, the most humane way to kill it will always be yourself, as opposed to hauling it to strange surroundings, penned up with mean abusive strange animals, and then handled by strange men and killed by someone who doesn't care anything about humane treatment.
Now any of those methods are faster than say, a misplaced arrow. But that too is far quicker than being chased all afternoon by a pack of wolves; who then proceed to let the carcass rot after a few bites as they were just killing for the fun of it. If the animal is lucky it dies quick. Unlucky and they eat you from the rear and you ball in suffering while watching them eat your guts out.
Nature as designed by God is far crueler than most people can conceive.
Years ago I heard a neat sermon at a non-denominational spirit-filled church.
The pastor was amazing. small small church like 40 people or less usually but this guy knew the bible so well he didn't plan his sermons. He just prayed and started quoting scripture; really impressed me and made a lasting impact.
He gave a sermon one time where he claimed that nature originally was the way that it will be in the future (lion laying with lamb etc) but it was the shock of the sin of mankind, that warped even the natural order. He taught that in the garden all of the animals were herbavores but man's sin caused such perversion.
I think this makes sense. I don't think G-d designed a cruel world I think we had something to do with that as his fallen "imagers" here and perhaps the fallen bnei-elokiym (sons of god) aka "watchers" contributed...
Yes, net fishing is allowed just like trapping is allowed (ancient style not big metal break their leg modern trapping). If you can produce some data that fish experience more pain than mammals/birds then you may actually have something there.
Otherwise, I'm not buying it.
Lol, can you produce any data that mammals suffer all that much? This was my point who knows how many posts ago. The whole debate is subjective. You can't know how much an animal is suffering to know if its suffering too much.
Now you can read animal minds? You know that fish don't suffer at all as they gasp for oxygen for long periods of time as their Creator rows back to shore to sell them for food but you know that furry fluffy animals suffer greatly when the get arrowed and bleed out?
Do you think through this stuff before you post it or are you that contemptuous of our intelligence?
Welldone on your cheerleading! goooo team goy!
As I’ve mentioned before, my time right now is at a premium. I was planning on taking the time later tonight to weigh in a bit more but thought he did a good job.
I really have tried to follow what you’ve explained Ish. The problem that I’m having is when someone extrapolates from something that exists or is provable only in their opinion and then other very clear passages that prove just the opposite is ignored, it kinda puts a bad taste in my mouth. It’s the whole fly in the ointment thing.
There’s a lot of your positions that I’m ok with or even agree with and I enjoy reading and studying some of these issues through Talmud as well as other sources. However I am not convinced that just because they claim this is the way it’s aaaalwaaaays been done, that it is an accurate or truthful statement. IMO, on this topic, the current Jewish Law does not match the text of scripture. Something has changed and I’m pretty sure it’s not the OT.
BTW, I’m not a fan of Esau and could care less that he was a hunter.
I am very reluctant to wade into this, but I am an agricultural scientist who used to work with one of the members of the New Zealand government's animal welfare advisory committee when NZ banned kosher slaughter a few years ago on animal welfare grounds, so I've discussed this at length in the past from a scientific perspective and should probably pass on some of this information. I've killed enough sheep to have a hands-on understanding of that also, and I did a fair bit of primitive-style trapping of animals in my younger years.
Jewish sources generally claim that kosher slaughter is the most humane slaughter method possible. This has now been studied at length scientifically, in order to inform regulations around halal and kosher slaughter of animals. I mention it here because it gives us data that is valuable when considering hunting from an animal welfare perspective also. The general scientific consensus is:
On the basis of this, New Zealand mandated stunning of animals prior to bleeding out several years ago. This means that halal slaughter is allowed (as at least some Muslim halal authorities allow pre-stunning), but kosher is banned (as no Jewish authorities allow it). So kosher slaughter has been banned on animal welfare grounds. Note that I do not agree with this ban on the grounds of religious freedom, but mention it to give context.
Applying this to hunting - a clean head shot with a rifle will result in a faster death than kosher slaughter, and be more humane. However, a body shot will result in a slower death.
Snaring results in hours of suffering. A poor shot with a rifle results in a few minutes of suffering, until the animal can be found and dispatched humanely. So if snaring is allowed in Torah, on animal welfare grounds, then hunting being more humane should be allowed also.
Scripture never mandates what is known as kosher slaughter. Rather, we are simply told to not eat the blood, and to pour the blood out upon the ground (Lev 17). We are not told specifics of HOW we are to do that, only that we must do it. As @Slumberfreeze pointed out, we are specifically told that we may pour the blood out after an animal has been hunted or trapped (Lev 17:13). This is not about a method of slaughter - it is about not eating blood. We are also told not to be cruel to animals, but again we are not told the specifics of how to apply this principle, only that it is a general principle.
Kosher slaughter and Jewish bans on hunting are not Torah - the principles behind them are Torah. A Torah-observant believer will follow those principles, but not necessarily the interpretation of the rabbis.
We must remember that there are different rabbinical schools of thought on all matters anyway (as you've said before @IshChayil, two Jews three opinions... ). Disagreeing on how to apply Torah is entirely consistent with Jewish practice, so nobody's being anti-Jewish here, they're just looking at Torah carefully.
Jewish sources generally claim that kosher slaughter is the most humane slaughter method possible. This has now been studied at length scientifically, in order to inform regulations around halal and kosher slaughter of animals. I mention it here because it gives us data that is valuable when considering hunting from an animal welfare perspective also. The general scientific consensus is:
- Slitting the throat causes a relatively slow death as the brain remains conscious for some time, until the oxygen supply from blood runs out, so is able to feel the pain of the neck wound.
- Using a sharp, long knife may reduce the pain of the wound, but not the time the animal feels the pain for.
- On the other hand, stunning the brain using a head shot with a firearm, a captive bolt gun, or electrically, results in immediate unconsciousness, so results in less pain and is more humane.
- Sheep and goats become unconscious in around 10-13 seconds after a throat slit. Cattle have different circulatory systems, with less blood supplied through the throat and more through other parts of the neck, so take considerably longer to die following a throat slit. So killing by slitting the throat is generally considered very inhumane for cattle, while for sheep it is acceptable as a last resort (e.g. to put down an animal that is already in pain) but not the best option for routine slaughter.
On the basis of this, New Zealand mandated stunning of animals prior to bleeding out several years ago. This means that halal slaughter is allowed (as at least some Muslim halal authorities allow pre-stunning), but kosher is banned (as no Jewish authorities allow it). So kosher slaughter has been banned on animal welfare grounds. Note that I do not agree with this ban on the grounds of religious freedom, but mention it to give context.
Applying this to hunting - a clean head shot with a rifle will result in a faster death than kosher slaughter, and be more humane. However, a body shot will result in a slower death.
Trapping an animal in Biblical times would usually mean snaring. Snares do NOT hold an animal nicely until the hunter comes along to quickly and humanely slaughter them. They are one of the most horrible ways for an animal to be treated. If you set a line of snares and then check them the next day, you'll find animals that have been trapped for hours and have spent all that time trying to free themselves. Each movement draws the snare tighter. They will be badly injured from the snare itself, and also have torn at their own bodies with their teeth while trying to break the snare. As soon as you find them you kill them quickly - to stop the suffering that you yourself have caused with the snare. This is not a humane way to hunt by any stretch of the imagination - but it is an effective way when you have no other alternative and need to put food on the table.
Snaring results in hours of suffering. A poor shot with a rifle results in a few minutes of suffering, until the animal can be found and dispatched humanely. So if snaring is allowed in Torah, on animal welfare grounds, then hunting being more humane should be allowed also.
Scripture never mandates what is known as kosher slaughter. Rather, we are simply told to not eat the blood, and to pour the blood out upon the ground (Lev 17). We are not told specifics of HOW we are to do that, only that we must do it. As @Slumberfreeze pointed out, we are specifically told that we may pour the blood out after an animal has been hunted or trapped (Lev 17:13). This is not about a method of slaughter - it is about not eating blood. We are also told not to be cruel to animals, but again we are not told the specifics of how to apply this principle, only that it is a general principle.
Kosher slaughter and Jewish bans on hunting are not Torah - the principles behind them are Torah. A Torah-observant believer will follow those principles, but not necessarily the interpretation of the rabbis.
We must remember that there are different rabbinical schools of thought on all matters anyway (as you've said before @IshChayil, two Jews three opinions...
). Disagreeing on how to apply Torah is entirely consistent with Jewish practice, so nobody's being anti-Jewish here, they're just looking at Torah carefully.
A note on this with respect to modern slaughter practice since it wasn't mentioned. Standard practice in the US after the stun is to immediately bleed the animal so the normal convulsing pushes all blood out of the animals. I'm sure this has roots in historic practice and religious belief but the modern impulse is related to meat quality and maybe safety.
For ruminants this is a slit to the throat. For hogs, sticking it in the sternum with a knife. For chickens it varies. Apparently the big slaughter houses use electric stunning. Traditional farm practice is to lop the head off. More modern practice on farms and probably small plants is to use a killing cone and slit the throat. However I've found slitting chicken throats to be hit or miss and find the ax more reliable. But it can sometimes go amiss.