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Hunting is it allowed or forbidden? Is Judah right or wrong on this?

It seems I'm late to the party. I have a couple of things to add.

Sanhedrin 95a where we find Dovid Hamelech hunting. The Margolios Hayam there note 15 brings all the classical sources against this decidedly unjewish act. He started off the piece by explaining that Dovid's act of catching food is not hunting, hunting is an act of entertainment. Halachicaly, if one can aim right and shecht the animal with his arrow, as recorded in Chulin, that is kosher. So too, shooting below the knee in order to incapacitate the animal would not render it a treifa. Any other shot, even if not a 'kill shot' would make it unusable and therefore assur, unless of course the person has a need for the skin or blood. Another sugya that mentions trapping is in Bava Metzia 85b, there a net was used and the meat eaten and the skins used for writing sifrei torah. Also, Reb Yaakov Kaminetsky writes in the fifth chapter of his commentary on Pirkei Avos that killing a fly is as much murder as killing a human being. The difference is the Torah allowed the one but not the other. He was discussing people who want to be vegetarians.

The issue of hunting all stems from the fact that Esau and Nimrod were the only to "great" hunters mentioned in the Tanahk. They were wicked there for hunting is wicked. It's the same line of though that says Lamaech was wicked and since he was the first polygamist mentioned in the Tanahk, polygamy is wicked.
 
So are you suggesting that the same faulty logic is present? (That is, 'wicked men hunted ergo hunting is wicked'.)
 
andrew said:
So are you suggesting that the same faulty logic is present? (That is, 'wicked men hunted ergo hunting is wicked'.)
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Yes sir. Torah teaches to be respectful in the slaughtering of animals for food. So does Talmud. Many of the sages talk about the semantics about trapping and hunting what is acceptable forms (less suffering) or not. There are many arguements in the Talmud that support trapping and hunting as long as its not done for pleasure, wastefuly, or with unnessary suffering. They tend to get over shadowed by the hard line stance is that since the two prolific hunters in scripture are wicked men, hunting is wicked. We can see a reflection of that thought process in the Lamaech was a polygamist who commited murder, and since murder is a sin, polygamy must be one to arguement; aswell as in the current liberal thought process about guns in America, evil men use guns to killed people, so guns are evil and since guns are evil those who own them are evil. Where I respect the the biblical knowledge of the Old Sages I cannot accept something as sinful if it is not stated as such in Torah expecially when the Sages don't dispute hunting as so much as the connection to Esau and Nimrod.
 
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Kevin said:
Yes sir. Torah teaches to be respectful in the slaughtering of animals for food. So does Talmud. Many of the sages talk about the semantics about trapping and hunting what is acceptable forms (less suffering) or not. There are many arguements in the Talmud that support trapping and hunting as long as its not done for pleasure, wastefuly, or with unnessary suffering. They tend to get over shadowed by the hard line stance is that since the two prolific hunters in scripture are wicked men, hunting is wicked. We can see a reflection of that thought process in the Lamaech was a polygamist who commited murder, and since murder is a sin, polygamy must be one to arguement; aswell as in the current liberal thought process about guns in America, evil men use guns to killed people, so guns are evil and since guns are evil those who own them are evil. Where I respect the the biblical knowledge of the Old Sages I cannot accept something as sinful if it is not stated as such in Torah expecially when the Sages don't dispute hunting as so much as the connection to Esau and Nimrod.
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Just clarifying, you are in agreement that the primary argument of the sages is the derived command from the various commands to not cause animals unneeded suffering (hence the outright ban on hunting for pleasure) and the preferred hunting medium being traps (also affects kashrut since the understanding is the animal will be slaughtered after it's caught) and that the reasoning of Esau and Nimrod being bad guys is a secondary argument right?
It seems the sages lean heavily on the derived command and the later sages (lower level) acheroniym and even later tend more towards the "and by the way only evil dudes in scripture Esau and Nimrod hunted while Jacob was studying in tents" kind of reasoning right?
 
IshChayil said:
you are in agreement that the primary argument of the sages is the derived command from the various commands to not cause animals unneeded suffering (hence the outright ban on hunting for pleasure) and the preferred hunting medium being traps (also affects kashrut since the understanding is the animal will be slaughtered after it's caught) and that the reasoning of Esau and Nimrod being bad guys is a secondary argument right?
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Yes I was speaking of the hard line stance forbidding all hunting outright and the fact that the Esau and Nimrod argument though a lesser argument (fallacy) is used more and more frequently in a way that overshadows actual Torah.
 
Kevin said:
...; as well as in the current liberal thought process about guns in America, evil men use guns to killed people, so guns are evil and since guns are evil those who own them are evil....
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BTW: it's a bit off from the hunting issue but some may like to be armed by this stat:

I heard a neat statistic on the Ben Shapiro Show (dailywire.com and youtube), that more people are killed in the U.S. from "hands and knives" than are killed by guns.
So I guess we better get banning hands...
 
Sorry if someone already posted this but as there is so many post but where there is no law there is no sin...soooo next....no really
Ive kind of tapped out of much of the messianic jewish community cause so many want to follow the sages and add to the law which is a violation of torah. Theae same people will tell ypu polygyny is forbidden. Im sorry its gotten old. I love tradition. I spin my grogger at Purim and likwise a dreidel at Hanukkah but the uninspired commandmentd of men have gotten old. Hunting is far less cruel than how we get meat also...every hunter knows this.
 
Elijahsfire said:
Sorry if someone already posted this but as there is so many post but where there is no law there is no sin...soooo next....no really
Ive kind of tapped out of much of the messianic jewish community cause so many want to follow the sages and add to the law which is a violation of torah. Theae same people will tell ypu polygyny is forbidden. Im sorry its gotten old. I love tradition. I spin my grogger at Purim and likwise a dreidel at Hanukkah but the uninspired commandmentd of men have gotten old. Hunting is far less cruel than how we get meat also...every hunter knows this.
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I've been in several commercial feed lots for a variety of different animals. They truly are terrible places. You are right that hunting is far kinder.
 
Kevin said:
Yes I was speaking of the hard line stance forbidding all hunting outright and the fact that the Esau and Nimrod argument though a lesser argument (fallacy) is used more and more frequently in a way that overshadows actual Torah.
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I hear ya, and I do see the logic you are mentioning;
if one is gonna say that since only evil guys hunted in the bible therefore hunting is evil it's a bit of an argument from silence but I don't agree with your implying it's the same as saying
one guy who did polygamy was bad in the bible therefore all polygamists are bad; simply because, well, ,there are good polygamists in the bible and there aren't good hunters.
In fact, when I first read your argument about this I agreed (it's probably why I leaned more heavily on the derived torah command from animal suffering angle in the first place) but the more I thought about it the last couple of days; the "only examples of hunting in the bible are from evil guys" kind of makes me wonder.
I mean this is the ancient world we are talking about and there's a lot of royalty in the bible and what did royals do back in the day?
When you kind of would expect to find something and you don't then it makes me wonder maybe there really is something to that whole wicked Esau / Nimrod argument.
Maybe someone can help me here. I think it's probably true we are out of the realm of logic in connecting those dots but what would you call it if you have a preponderance of data and you expect to find something there and it's not there (but you do find something in the same category i.e. Esau and Nimrod)?
Imagine what kids called him at school? Hey Nimrod!

I'm not arguing here so much since we already came to a solution the Messianic and Hebrew roots people seemed to agree on (just kill the animal if you are sure you can kill it with one shot otherwise let it go).

ZecAustin said:
I've been in several commercial feed lots for a variety of different animals. They truly are terrible places. You are right that hunting is far kinder.
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I can't even imagine the horror show that must happen at feed lots. Glad that wasn't one of the options we discussed here! yikes.

Elijahsfire said:
Sorry if someone already posted this but as there is so many post but where there is no law there is no sin...soooo next....no really
Ive kind of tapped out of much of the messianic jewish community cause so many want to follow the sages and add to the law which is a violation of torah. Theae same people will tell ypu polygyny is forbidden. Im sorry its gotten old. I love tradition. I spin my grogger at Purim and likwise a dreidel at Hanukkah but the uninspired commandmentd of men have gotten old. Hunting is far less cruel than how we get meat also...every hunter knows this.
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I never spin a dreidal because I'm no longer 8.... just kidding I spin with my daughter but this is like Reform Jewry's idea of "Yiddishkeit" you know what I mean?
I know you're just coming in now, probably you missed it so I'll summarize: the discussion in this thread has been primarily based on Torah's commands having to do with suffering of animals and if hunting transgresses this or not and if so is there a modern way to look at it to make hunting "kosher". Noone is suggesting people here learn to circle dance ... you're comparing apples and oranges

Where do you get that the sages are banning polygamy? Which tractate is that in please? The opposite is true: Khetuboth details some cases involving polygamy. Even during the Azhkenazi (non-talmudic) Gershom ban (which expired) a fella could still get a second wife with rabbinical approval (it was harder for German Jews but could be done). Yemini Jews who have the same talmudic traditions never put any kind of restriction on polygamy and Sephardiym also never had a rabbinical ban though sometimes they had an addition in the ketubah they would only take another wife with the first wife's approval.

Please be careful with statements like "the same guys" when making blanket statements about the sages; I know you probably don't mean any harm but a lot of folks here don't know what we are referring to and if we clump in singing havah nagila with not causing animals to suffer it's an unfair wash. feel me?

Deriving anti-cruelty laws from torah is not wallowing in tradition it's applying torah ethics. In addition, the idea to put a hedge around the torah as derived from Dt. 22 is applied often by the Messiah: looking at another man's woman with lust in heart is adultery, having anger in heart for brother is murder, name-calling your brother (raka) and you're in big trouble, etc. hedges.

This is not what it means to add or take away otherwise Yeshua is guilty of the same.
 
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Yes the askenazic ban was only supposed to be in place for a thousand years and should have been officially lifted, better yet should have never existed. I was actually speaking of the messianic community by and large dont support polygyny but many claim to be Torah observant and this is vulgar hypocrisy.
 
Elijahsfire said:
Yes the askenazic ban was only supposed to be in place for a thousand years and should have been officially lifted, better yet should have never existed. I was actually speaking of the messianic community by and large dont support polygyny but many claim to be Torah observant and this is vulgar hypocrisy.
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Thanks for clarifying I agree!
same goes for the Hebrew roots folks!

That being said, the ruach is moving brother. I know of some leadership in Hebrew roots and I know of one Messianic Rabbi (UMJC) who believes in Polygamy.
 
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IshChayil said:
Thanks for clarifying I agree!
same goes for the Hebrew roots folks!

That being said, the ruach is moving brother. I know of some leadership in Hebrew roots and I know of one Messianic Rabbi (UMJC) who believes in Polygamy.
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Cool. Yes I am finding quite a few messianic secret polygyny supporters on FB and even found some of my 'in person' friends are FB friends with people on here....small world...its like polygyny club is like fight club...you dont talk about polygyny club until you are sitting eatung a bagle during oneg and somebody whispers something to you about agreeing withbyour FB post...LOL
 
While I am not an authority on ancient texts, I don’t speak Greek or Hebrew, and I don’t know a lot about Jewish traditions aside from what I read in the Bible (all things I would like to remedy in the future), i do have a good deal of experience with hunting (bow and rifle) trapping, fishing and a couple times of slaughtering an animal for food. I grew up in the Alaska wilderness... waaaay off the grid. Hunting, trapping, and fishing were out of necessity to obtain sustenance. I don’t know all the ethical elements involved in theoretically determining which one of these methods is more humane, but if I was facing death, personally, by one of these methods I guaranda#%tee you I wouldn’t choose the snare or having my throat cut! I don’t care how well trained the throat cutter is! I would put those two among the top ten worst ways to die, imho.
 
Elijahsfire said:
Cool. Yes I am finding quite a few messianic secret polygyny supporters on FB and even found some of my 'in person' friends are FB friends with people on here....small world...its like polygyny club is like fight club...you dont talk about polygyny club until you are sitting eatung a bagle during oneg and somebody whispers something to you about agreeing withbyour FB post...LOL
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I really have to say, the more I think about the "Polygamy club" vs Fight club, I LOVE IT!
 
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