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Is Concubinage Fornication?

@The Revolting Man, I'm not here to defend @frederick. @Maddog was talking about the value of a lexicon/dictionary, and you were telling him he shouldn't need a dictionary. This came across as ridiculous. You then made a particularly sarcastic post in response to @frederick, the tone of which certainly influenced the tone of my response as I assumed a similar level of sarcasm, but the topic of my post was still to point out what I see as logical fallacies in your own opinion as presented to @Maddog.

You are saying that we can completely trust the translations - but cannot trust the tools the translators used to produce those translations. We can trust the words of scholars when printed as a Bible, but cannot trust the words of the same scholars when printed in a dictionary.

This, to me, appears highly illogical - illogical enough to be deserving of a degree of ridicule to highlight it.

I completely agree with you that all we NEED for faith in God is the Bible. However, when we're trying to figure out the detail of an issue on which different translations disagree, and we want to dig deeper, we need a knowledge of how the translators got there. And we get this knowledge through studying the original languages and using basic tools like dictionaries.

I cannot understand your level of militant anti-scholasticism. Why do you feel so strongly about this issue?
Seriously? Why don’t I trust modern scholarship? Are you asking me that with a straight face or are you bursting out in laughter as you type that?

Most of these people don’ believe that God even exists. The ones that do are some kind of ecumenical heretics, or liberal heretic. These are the people who tell you you’re descended from monkeys, that homosexuality is the moral equivalent of heterosexuality, that boys can be girls and no can even question it.

Like I said, you have lost all perspective. I will turn the question around on you, given all of the damnable heresies that have come out of allegedly educated men, how could you possibly trust them?
 
I don't trust modern scholars either. However, the dictionaries we are talking about are things like Gesenius' lexicon (early 1800s), and it's later revision by Brown-Driver-Briggs (1906). Gesenius was, as far as I can understand, as sound a conservative Lutheran as any man you could find on the most conservative translation committee anywhere - do you have a problem with Gesenius @The Revolting Man?

The BDB revision is dated into the modern era and at least one of the editors had liberal tendencies, so it is theoretically possible that this revision may have introduced some liberal errors - if anyone can point out an instance where the editors added a liberal spin on Gesenius' original then I'd be genuinely interested. I haven't heard of such an issue yet but it could well exist.

I don't trust the authors of such tools to be 100% accurate everywhere - but nor do I trust all English translations of scripture to be 100% accurate everywhere. I know that God will faithfully preserve His word, and it is available to us, but we need to use discernment because some translations are undeniably heretical (being produced by damnably heretical modern scholars). And dictionaries are an important tool as we attempt to work out which translations are acceptable for us to use, and which are heretical.

How else do we determine which translations are robust, and which are the product of heretics, other than by referring to the original languages - which we can only learn to understand through learning from other scholars?
 
TRM- did you know of the differences in the plural and singular uses of marriage(s) in Matt 25? I did not without the help from brothers here at BF. That particular example answers my question of "Where is the bride?" Answer in short- They All Were! This was supported not by fancy argument or brow-beating but rather by pointing out (in Strongs) that singular -vs- plural tenses. I have been a life-long student of the english Bible(KJV for sure) and again feel like a splash of nuance color is very helpful. Patriarchy is strongly supported in the Hebrew and Greek Bible and softened or diluted in the English. Why? I didnt used to believe in the nefarious intent or even political bent of translators even though i was a KJV only student. Can the translators be biased and how can the reader student decipher without help? Do i just believe you because you say so? You may be very correct in your interpretation but blind adherence is foolishness. So i say Thank you bro for your input but i must continue to use helps. Condescending remarks reveal alot.
 
I don't have chapter and verse, but I somehow came to think that a concubine was a wife of lower status, perhaps being born into a lower class before marriage or perhaps being gotten without a dowry.

In the modern context I have come to think that the modern word for concubine is "partner". If a man uses that word to describe the woman in his life then the implication is that he is having sex with her and there is some vague sense of ownership in the relationship (so she's not a prostitute or disposable girlfriend) but he has not given her the rights that come along with legal wife.

(full status) wife > concubine/partner > steady girlfriend > first few dates girlfriend > random woman > prostitute
 
I don't trust modern scholars either. However, the dictionaries we are talking about are things like Gesenius' lexicon (early 1800s), and it's later revision by Brown-Driver-Briggs (1906). Gesenius was, as far as I can understand, as sound a conservative Lutheran as any man you could find on the most conservative translation committee anywhere - do you have a problem with Gesenius @The Revolting Man?

The BDB revision is dated into the modern era and at least one of the editors had liberal tendencies, so it is theoretically possible that this revision may have introduced some liberal errors - if anyone can point out an instance where the editors added a liberal spin on Gesenius' original then I'd be genuinely interested. I haven't heard of such an issue yet but it could well exist.

I don't trust the authors of such tools to be 100% accurate everywhere - but nor do I trust all English translations of scripture to be 100% accurate everywhere. I know that God will faithfully preserve His word, and it is available to us, but we need to use discernment because some translations are undeniably heretical (being produced by damnably heretical modern scholars). And dictionaries are an important tool as we attempt to work out which translations are acceptable for us to use, and which are heretical.

How else do we determine which translations are robust, and which are the product of heretics, other than by referring to the original languages - which we can only learn to understand through learning from other scholars?
I don’t trust myself. I certainly don’t trust anyone else. I’m 200% skeptical that these dictionaries and lexicons haven’t been the targets of sabotage themselves. These things are constantly being revised and edited and reissued. You can’t trust them because you can’t verify them.
 
TRM- did you know of the differences in the plural and singular uses of marriage(s) in Matt 25? I did not without the help from brothers here at BF. That particular example answers my question of "Where is the bride?" Answer in short- They All Were! This was supported not by fancy argument or brow-beating but rather by pointing out (in Strongs) that singular -vs- plural tenses. I have been a life-long student of the english Bible(KJV for sure) and again feel like a splash of nuance color is very helpful. Patriarchy is strongly supported in the Hebrew and Greek Bible and softened or diluted in the English. Why? I didnt used to believe in the nefarious intent or even political bent of translators even though i was a KJV only student. Can the translators be biased and how can the reader student decipher without help? Do i just believe you because you say so? You may be very correct in your interpretation but blind adherence is foolishness. So i say Thank you bro for your input but i must continue to use helps. Condescending remarks reveal alot.
You’re misrepresenting what I said. I said they weren’t necessary, not that there was absolutely no point in them.

However, if your theology hinges on the plural and singular tenses then you have a problem with your theology. These outside; extra-biblical sources are just that, extra.

On top of all that they are also not without peril.
 
I said they weren’t necessary, not that there was absolutely no point in them.
If that is your point, it's reasonable. In that case, don't mock people for using these resources, which you only see as "not necessary".
I don’t trust myself. I certainly don’t trust anyone else. I’m 200% skeptical that these dictionaries and lexicons haven’t been the targets of sabotage themselves. These things are constantly being revised and edited and reissued. You can’t trust them because you can’t verify them.
If I were Satan and wanted to corrupt all modern translations, I'd certainly target the resources used by translators. Hence the United Bible Societies version of the New Testament, which explains much of the New Testament issues in modern translations vs the KJV... I understand your skepticism.

But caution does not mean outright rejection, or you end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
 
If that is your point, it's reasonable. In that case, don't mock people for using these resources, which you only see as "not necessary".

If I were Satan and wanted to corrupt all modern translations, I'd certainly target the resources used by translators. Hence the United Bible Societies version of the New Testament, which explains much of the New Testament issues in modern translations vs the KJV... I understand your skepticism.

But caution does not mean outright rejection, or you end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I’ll mock whoever I deem worthy of mockery. Drive-by pretentiousness is high on that list.

Did you possibly mistake my nuance for a sign of retreat? Did you sound charge a little too early? Extra-Biblical sources are not necessary. So those who try and make them necessary are deceiving themselves and possibly others.

It is a pseudo-intellectual who tries to puff himself up with arcane knowledge, who bypasses the simple truths in plain view in order to thrash around in the dark trying to find some sort of hidden revelation to make themselves feel smarter.

Jerry Clower talked about people educated beyond their intelligence. Those people are a danger to themselves and others. Those people need to stick to the text, which is clearly beyond them as it’s written.

Those people, in their arrogant sophistry, get enraged when they realize their drivel not only isn’t impressing anyone, it’s not even fooling anyone. Those people think these works of men who they don’t know and whose fruit they can not test, makes them wise.

Meanwhile we’re told that our faith is foolish and will confound the wise.

I defy all aspiring priests. I oppose all would be gate keepers. I battle anyone who implies God can’t accurately communicate His Word to us. And I will mercilessly mock anyone so myopic as to claim they worship a God they only know through a book they don’t trust.

What kind of brain dead idiot says something that stupid? What kind of fool thinks modern day scholars are prophets who can divinely reveal the obscured truths that God failed to deliver to us?

If your faith rests in any way on the works of man then you don’t have a faith. You have a whimsically fantastical self-help book and a series of quite pointless dictionaries and lexicons, since they elucidate dead languages from a book that isn’t real.

You want mockery? There are men on this forum who treat their faith like a Dungeons and Dragons game themed buffet. They’ll take a little mysticism, they’ll have a side of mumbo-jumbo they don’t understand and maybe finish it off with a course of masturbatory pontificating and voila! An entertaining diversion from reality.

Meanwhile, no one here can either define marriage, astounding considering all of the Immaculate Dictionaries floating around basking in beams of soft light, or tell us how to form one according to scripture. But by Harvard University Press we can form Greek grammar. And what a relief because otherwise we would never know what God’s Word meant! Hopefully one day a benevolent academic will enlighten us on how to avoid committing adultery and our religion will finally be completed!

You know what, I don’t have to mock anyone. The whole thing is so ridiculous there’s no option but to laugh. Yes, let’s all read dictionaries. The best to understand one book is to read a completely different one after all. I mean it would be bat shit crazy to do anything else.
 
It wasn’t that long ago that we had a member of leadership so far up his own ass with extra-Biblical horseshit that he was trying to figure out exactly how much Moses based the Torah on the Code of Hammurabi. He finally got so confused that he created an entire new and separate person, of lesser status to the Father and the Son, to be the Holy Spirit in some insanely garbled interpretation of binitarianism.

How did he get so turned around? He was a good man, a sincere man, a man dedicated to learning about his religion. He ended up espousing one of the more ridiculous heresies I’ve ever heard because he thought scripture needed to be revealed by academics trying to get published in a world that hates scripture.

If you’ve mastered the Bible in your native tongue, if you are an exceptional intellect (of which there are very few) or if you’re some kind of humble, grounded student in the mold of @PeteR then these tools may be of some benefit to your outward facing ministry. But that doesn’t apply to most of us.
 
[Gen 25:5-6 KJV] 5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac. But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
 
In the modern context I have come to think that the modern word for concubine is "partner"
I am going to pull that out of context and go there.
My belief is that in any marriage where he calls her his partner, she is de facto a concubine.
Yah’s idea of a wife includes an even greater sense of her belonging to him than does a partner.
 
I’ll mock whoever I deem worthy of mockery. Drive-by pretentiousness is high on that list.

Did you possibly mistake my nuance for a sign of retreat? Did you sound charge a little too early? Extra-Biblical sources are not necessary. So those who try and make them necessary are deceiving themselves and possibly others.

It is a pseudo-intellectual who tries to puff himself up with arcane knowledge, who bypasses the simple truths in plain view in order to thrash around in the dark trying to find some sort of hidden revelation to make themselves feel smarter.

Jerry Clower talked about people educated beyond their intelligence. Those people are a danger to themselves and others. Those people need to stick to the text, which is clearly beyond them as it’s written.

Those people, in their arrogant sophistry, get enraged when they realize their drivel not only isn’t impressing anyone, it’s not even fooling anyone. Those people think these works of men who they don’t know and whose fruit they can not test, makes them wise.

Meanwhile we’re told that our faith is foolish and will confound the wise.

I defy all aspiring priests. I oppose all would be gate keepers. I battle anyone who implies God can’t accurately communicate His Word to us. And I will mercilessly mock anyone so myopic as to claim they worship a God they only know through a book they don’t trust.

What kind of brain dead idiot says something that stupid? What kind of fool thinks modern day scholars are prophets who can divinely reveal the obscured truths that God failed to deliver to us?

If your faith rests in any way on the works of man then you don’t have a faith. You have a whimsically fantastical self-help book and a series of quite pointless dictionaries and lexicons, since they elucidate dead languages from a book that isn’t real.

You want mockery? There are men on this forum who treat their faith like a Dungeons and Dragons game themed buffet. They’ll take a little mysticism, they’ll have a side of mumbo-jumbo they don’t understand and maybe finish it off with a course of masturbatory pontificating and voila! An entertaining diversion from reality.

Meanwhile, no one here can either define marriage, astounding considering all of the Immaculate Dictionaries floating around basking in beams of soft light, or tell us how to form one according to scripture. But by Harvard University Press we can form Greek grammar. And what a relief because otherwise we would never know what God’s Word meant! Hopefully one day a benevolent academic will enlighten us on how to avoid committing adultery and our religion will finally be completed!

You know what, I don’t have to mock anyone. The whole thing is so ridiculous there’s no option but to laugh. Yes, let’s all read dictionaries. The best to understand one book is to read a completely different one after all. I mean it would be bat shit crazy to do anything else.
It is written, How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge. Also, Wise people store up knowledge, But the mouth of the foolish is near destruction.

You are not the first person I've encountered to boast in their ignorance so you are nothing new and I'm sure you won't be the last. Mock on!
 
It is written, How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge. Also, Wise people store up knowledge, But the mouth of the foolish is near destruction.

You are not the first person I've encountered to boast in their ignorance so you are nothing new and I'm sure you won't be the last. Mock on!
Have you ever noticed that the only time you quote scripture is to try and insult me?
 
TRM, i am not sure why you assume the mantle of superiority especially over my humble honest words. You do not deserve my angst. Your mockery has apparently served you well to this point but not with this person.
I have stated positions in the past only to feel your cork-boot response on my back. Are you so daft oh arrogant one, to not realize your destruction of others in the guise of righteous indignation? You take the place of the destroyer in your mockery. Wisdom itself will mock you in time without your change- repentance to be sure. For the sake of your wife and children, put a sock in the mouth of your pride. You have already revealed that you are not that smart.
 
TRM, i am not sure why you assume the mantle of superiority especially over my humble honest words. You do not deserve my angst. Your mockery has apparently served you well to this point but not with this person.
I have stated positions in the past only to feel your cork-boot response on my back. Are you so daft oh arrogant one, to not realize your destruction of others in the guise of righteous indignation? You take the place of the destroyer in your mockery. Wisdom itself will mock you in time without your change- repentance to be sure. For the sake of your wife and children, put a sock in the mouth of your pride. You have already revealed that you are not that smart.
You may have stumbled in to something that really isn’t about you. Possibly you just got caught in the cross fire of a longer running conflict. Back away from the impact area and you should be safe. I’m not sure what a cork boot is so I’m not sure if I have one or not but I assure you that if I do, it’s not on your back.

Some of these debates have roots stretching back a decade and more. There’s a lot of iceberg underneath the surface on some of these. I think you’re personalizing it far more than it is.

Also, “o daft one” should be capitalized. It carries more dramatic weight. And I agree, I’m not that smart, which should worry those people who find themselves under the weight of my cork boot. How does an uneducated hillbilly who lives in a double wide trailer at the end of a dirt road in the unfashionable end of north Georgia frustrate so many allegedly superior intellects?

Could it be that a fanatical adherence to simple truths and first principles shields me from the errors of men? Could be.
 
TRM, i am not sure why you assume the mantle of superiority especially over my humble honest words. You do not deserve my angst. Your mockery has apparently served you well to this point but not with this person.
I have stated positions in the past only to feel your cork-boot response on my back. Are you so daft oh arrogant one, to not realize your destruction of others in the guise of righteous indignation? You take the place of the destroyer in your mockery. Wisdom itself will mock you in time without your change- repentance to be sure. For the sake of your wife and children, put a sock in the mouth of your pride. You have already revealed that you are not that smart.
Also, @FollowingHim , THIS is an example of a personal attack.
 
My belief is that in any marriage where he calls her his partner, she is de facto a concubine.
My observation is that in any marriage where he calls her his wife, she is the de facto lord and master.
 
My observation is that in any marriage where he calls her his wife, she is the de facto lord and master.
You lost me on that one.
What does he call her if not wife?
 
His woman.

I've never been married, but I'm already trying to erase "wife" and "married" from my vocabulary. Primarily because I'd like to avoid American "common law" marriage. I've run across a few different lawyers with different means of keeping the state out of nuptial contracts.
 
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