-
Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.
Jesus---Messiah not God
- Thread starter windblown
- Start date
Ooooo..... definitely a hot and sensitive topic! Indeed, there are quite a few Hebrew roots/Messianics who do not consider Jesus/Yeshua to be God. The reason probably has a lot to do with the mistrust of much Christian doctrine after pulling other loose threads. This is moderately understandable as long as they move forward on solid research and study. Many do not resulting in reliance on Rabbinic thought, decidedly negative toward the (percieved) pogrom inducing, law breaking Fabio Jesus.Is it more common than not that Messianic/Hebrew Roots/TO folks believe Jesus is the Son of God only?
I've been wondering this for a long time....hoping some of y'all have an answer.
For me, when I began this journey of Truth, I set out to prove or disprove the Christian maxim that Jesus is on every page of the Bible. It is what I had been taught and decided I needed to test it for truth. The result was coming away with a confident certainty that He is Elohim (God) made visible.
He is the One who stood in the burning bush and said, 'I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.' He is the One who spoke face to face with Hagar, Abraham, Moses, Gideon, etc. I'll post a study sheet on all the Angel of the Lord interactions where He makes claims ONLY God can make, while being seen.
After a long Angel of the Lord study, I discovered the Targumim, authoritative Aramaic translations of the Torah, most of which predated Yeshua. Significantly, in more than 100 places the Rabbis personified the invisible God with a seeming visible person called, wait for it... the Memra de Yeya. The Word of the Lord.... so, when John begins with, 'In the beginning was the Word ans the Word was with God and the Word was God...' he is not introducing a new thought! He is simply applying to Yeshua the very term the rabbis of his day were using!
So, long answer with MUCH more I could say, but the short answer is, Yeshua is definitely Elohim... the longer answer is how that exactly plays out...
Though not a Hebrew Roots guy, I’d agree with @Ancient Paths 100%. Part of my search involved a fairly in depth study of Torah and the Crucifixion and Exodus. In it, I came to notice that there were multiple places that Christ performed certain parts of Torah perfectly though it was contrary to how the experts of his day observed them. I also couldn’t explain how all the other people in the Gospel story played out their roles so perfectly and in sync with the prophecies of the Old Testament including pagan Romans.
My conclusion was that Christ had to be God to know what to do exactly (as it was counter to some of the teachings of the day) and no mortal could orchestrate or manipulate so many other people into fulfilling prophecy so accurately. The culmination of the crucifixion with the astronomical anomaly and subsequent geological catastrophes and then his resurrection recorded not only by his disciples but also the Romans kind of sealed the deal for me.
When I later began to play around with Daniel’s 70 week prophecy and put together dates from Scripture, astronomy, Josephus, Ussher and a couple of other people, you could color me dumbfounded when everything coincided at the same year. After further study, I realized that everything about his birth, life and the start and end of his ministry, could be predicted from the Creation story thousands of years earlier. For me, the possibility that he could be anything other than divine had too many contradictions to be coincidental.
My conclusion was that Christ had to be God to know what to do exactly (as it was counter to some of the teachings of the day) and no mortal could orchestrate or manipulate so many other people into fulfilling prophecy so accurately. The culmination of the crucifixion with the astronomical anomaly and subsequent geological catastrophes and then his resurrection recorded not only by his disciples but also the Romans kind of sealed the deal for me.
When I later began to play around with Daniel’s 70 week prophecy and put together dates from Scripture, astronomy, Josephus, Ussher and a couple of other people, you could color me dumbfounded when everything coincided at the same year. After further study, I realized that everything about his birth, life and the start and end of his ministry, could be predicted from the Creation story thousands of years earlier. For me, the possibility that he could be anything other than divine had too many contradictions to be coincidental.
In case anyone wants it, my Angel of the Lord Study Notes....
Yup!
Christology bruh!
Most Messianic folk I know believe Messiah to be the Son of God / God made flesh.
Last edited:
I have noticed that some people once they start looking into Hebrew root and torah stuff tend to go too extreme. They start having a go at anyone who celebrates Christmas for example, and decide that they have truth and no one else in the world does. There's an arrogance involved. All it does is turn people away. The further they go down this track, the more likely they are to remove Yeshua as God, and have Him as a prophet only, sometimes even dismissing that. It's really sad to see. There are things that are important, but we need to have balance in life, and we need to be listening to YHWH, because there is no way He is ever going to tell us that actually Yeshua isn't His son and that was all some giant mistake.
At the end of the day you only need to read the first chapter of John to know.
At the end of the day you only need to read the first chapter of John to know.
I disagree. This happens with a number of people, but often only until they mature. I see it more like a pendulum effect where they usually settle into a more balanced perspective.
I haven't seen people come back into a more balanced perspective, but I'm glad that you have.
Now that sounds like a riddle with a connection to Adam v the son.of man..... hmmmm....
Where I don't go is the whole Christian Trinity thing.... That is a whole 'nother can of worms. My main beef with it is that in Christianity the image gets taken too far and Christ gets pitted against God as if everything changed at the cross and a whole new standard of righteousness came along with no rules... except whatever your denomination du jour says...
Trinity isn't in the Bible... I don't really go for it either, though it sort of makes YHWH easier to explain/understand.
Trinity is in the Matrix.
8^)
I don't pretend to be able to understand the Almighty who created the universe. I see patterns, and concepts modeled by creation, but my brain is a little small to have a perfect concept.
8^)
I don't pretend to be able to understand the Almighty who created the universe. I see patterns, and concepts modeled by creation, but my brain is a little small to have a perfect concept.
I follow Hebrew roots under the likes of Bill Cloud and others and I don't see how you can't see Jesus in the Old Testament. Especially the Torah and the Feast. Especially especially the Feast. And I believe the Trinity as well. I believe God gave me a Revelation on it but it is really hard to show without Pen and Paper.
B"H
I think in modern times we have as luxury some points which did not matter so much to first century believers.
The crux of the matter where we all agree is Romans 10:9
ὅτι ἐὰν ὁμολογήσῃς ⸂ἐν τῷ στόματί σου κύριον Ἰησοῦν⸃ καὶ πιστεύσῃς ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου ὅτι ὁ θεὸς αὐτὸν ἤγειρεν ἐκ νεκρῶν, σωθήσῃ·
If you admit with your mouth that Yeshua is lord and you believe in your mind that G-d raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
The nature of G-d's existence and His relationship to the son, and the Memra's walking among us long before Yeshua's birth are all interesting but have nothing to do with salvation
(another flaw with creeds like Apostle's creed and others is they divide people unnecessarily in an attempt to enforce monolithic faith practices).
Just while we're cleaning up, the uber-majority of Messianics believe Yeshua is G-d but do not make this some kind of litmus test for faith as traditional protesting Catholics do (yeah I lifted @andrew 's term, I love it).
There's even a lot of variance among folks here at Biblical Families, see the post on Binitarianism .
Regarding over-reacting with Christmas, Ishtar day and the such, there are sometimes years of pent up emotions from the oppression Messianics / Hebrew roots have felt in the traditional systems. Is it reasonable to lash out against people celebrating Yeshua's birthday on the wrong day?
No
I second what @jacobhaivri says that a handful of people behave this way then grow out of it. At least we don't do like those in ancient days did, start burning and tearing down the images!
Imagine if Hebrew Roots and Messianics started burning everyone's christmas trees and Easter eggs?
Well no need to imagine, we'd be dead. Most of us know when to be quiet and toe the Gentile-cultural line...
Shalom all
I think in modern times we have as luxury some points which did not matter so much to first century believers.
The crux of the matter where we all agree is Romans 10:9
ὅτι ἐὰν ὁμολογήσῃς ⸂ἐν τῷ στόματί σου κύριον Ἰησοῦν⸃ καὶ πιστεύσῃς ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου ὅτι ὁ θεὸς αὐτὸν ἤγειρεν ἐκ νεκρῶν, σωθήσῃ·
If you admit with your mouth that Yeshua is lord and you believe in your mind that G-d raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
The nature of G-d's existence and His relationship to the son, and the Memra's walking among us long before Yeshua's birth are all interesting but have nothing to do with salvation
(another flaw with creeds like Apostle's creed and others is they divide people unnecessarily in an attempt to enforce monolithic faith practices).
Just while we're cleaning up, the uber-majority of Messianics believe Yeshua is G-d but do not make this some kind of litmus test for faith as traditional protesting Catholics do (yeah I lifted @andrew 's term, I love it).
There's even a lot of variance among folks here at Biblical Families, see the post on Binitarianism .
Regarding over-reacting with Christmas, Ishtar day and the such, there are sometimes years of pent up emotions from the oppression Messianics / Hebrew roots have felt in the traditional systems. Is it reasonable to lash out against people celebrating Yeshua's birthday on the wrong day?
No
I second what @jacobhaivri says that a handful of people behave this way then grow out of it. At least we don't do like those in ancient days did, start burning and tearing down the images!
Imagine if Hebrew Roots and Messianics started burning everyone's christmas trees and Easter eggs?
Well no need to imagine, we'd be dead. Most of us know when to be quiet and toe the Gentile-cultural line...
Shalom all
Last edited:
1 Corinthians 15:45 (KJV) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
Thanks for the replies, y'all. Oh, I definitely remember the Binitarianism thread. It was at the same time I dealing with a very optimistic Jehovah Witness lady.
I had never heard of these Messianics/HR/TO ones before, although there were some hints.. But they came roaring out on some social media threads. Soooo defensive. Maybe some of that "over reacting" and "pent up emotions" from the "oppression" as Ish mentioned. @IshChayil, could it be that one group, say Messianics, over another has more unitarian (not sure that's the correct term) leanings?
I had never heard of these Messianics/HR/TO ones before, although there were some hints.. But they came roaring out on some social media threads. Soooo defensive. Maybe some of that "over reacting" and "pent up emotions" from the "oppression" as Ish mentioned. @IshChayil, could it be that one group, say Messianics, over another has more unitarian (not sure that's the correct term) leanings?
Right? And what to do with the "before Abraham was, I am"? Etc......
I mean it's easy for the Jehovah's Witnesses....they just change the words....
I accept that the concept behind the Trinity doctrine is true, somehow God is triune. We see all three entities at once at Christ's baptism.
But anyone noticed there only seems to be one entity presented in the Revelation? I wonder if the triune state is eternal. It MAY have come about at creation and it MAY come to a close with the end of the age. But I agree with @jacobhaivri that no one really understands this.
But anyone noticed there only seems to be one entity presented in the Revelation? I wonder if the triune state is eternal. It MAY have come about at creation and it MAY come to a close with the end of the age. But I agree with @jacobhaivri that no one really understands this.
Last edited:
Interesting thought, @ZecAustin maybe the way He reveals Himself is only necessary during our imperfect mortality, but once raised in immortality, that mode of communicating Himself will no linger be necessary.... interesting thought.
That's exactly whaf I was wondering.