C
Cap
Guest
The Law is like the air in a balloon. It is a part of the balloon, but it's not the balloon.
-
Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.
Jesus---Messiah not God
- Thread starter windblown
- Start date
The Law is like the air in a balloon. It is a part of the balloon, but it's not the balloon.
Understood and I agree however I do believe that especially in John Baptist day (prior to the cross) the Torah was important so the idea that his preaching wouldn’t have included Torah is something I question.
And just for the record I’m not Torah observant... but I don’t see why the two have to be at odds with each other.
Romans 7:7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Bzzzzt. Sorry. That won't fly. The decision of Acts 15 is summed up in vss. 20 AND 21. Everybody stops reading at 20 and doesn't go to the next verse.
21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."
Simply, v. 20 gives the basic requirements to get cleaned up to enter into fellowship because... v.21! They would learn Moses (Torah), in the synagogue on the Sabbath.
And, Romans 3:31... Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Absolutely NOT! (Greek is VERY strong here.) On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Paul's schoolmaster illustration is often misunderstood. Here is how it works.
There are rules to algebra. When in algebra class in high school, if you break those rules, you get a bad grade. you may even fail. The day comes when you graduate from high school and head out into the world. If you have to do an algebra problem, the rules still apply, you just don't have a teacher glaring at you or marking your paper with a red pen if you mess up. The rules do not magically disappear or stop working once you have the grace of diploma in hand...
There are rules to algebra. When in algebra class in high school, if you break those rules, you get a bad grade. you may even fail. The day comes when you graduate from high school and head out into the world. If you have to do an algebra problem, the rules still apply, you just don't have a teacher glaring at you or marking your paper with a red pen if you mess up. The rules do not magically disappear or stop working once you have the grace of diploma in hand...
Bzzzzt. Sorry. That won't fly. The decision of Acts 15 is summed up in vss. 20 AND 21. Everybody stops reading at 20 and doesn't go to the next verse.
21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."
Simply, v. 20 gives the basic requirements to get cleaned up to enter into fellowship because... v.21! They would learn Moses (Torah), in the synagogue on the Sabbath.
I'm actually studying this right now... That's why I put the question mark.
Ahhh... okay. Read that as, 'haven't you ever read Acts 15?'
Gotta love text's great ability to convey voice inflection....
Welcome home sir. Not that I have actually been around any butlers but that's what they say on tv.
Part of the problem is that Torah was never ment to be seen as the way of salvation but a path leading pointing the way to salvation. Torah has always been about seperating how we walk in a way that is pleasing to the Lord from living in Sin and seperation from Him. Torah is all about the Wise Virgins preparing themselves, and making themselves ready for the Bridegroom (Matt 25:10). We're are told and shown this multiple times in the Torah and by the Prophets. For example;
Habakkuk 2:4
Look at the proud: he is inwardly not upright;
but the righteous will attain life through trusting faithfulness.
Ezekiel 14:13-14
13 “Son of man, suppose a land sins against Me by trespassing grievously and I stretch out My hand over it, break off its staff of bread, send famine upon it and cut it off from man and beast. 14 Even if these three men—Noah, Daniel and Job—be in it, they would only deliver their own souls by their righteousness.” It is a declaration of Adonai.
Only Daniel was of the seed of Abraham and under the Sinaitic covenant. The other two were Gentiles. "Noah was a righteous man, faultless in his generation. Noah walked with God" (Gen. 6:9) Though a gentile, Noah knew what was clean and unclean and observed some Torah (how much more than what is shown in scripture if any, we don't know exactly), because he had a relationship with God. Job had a relationship aswell, Jewish tradition calls him the prophet of the Gentiles. He knew what was pleasing to God and went above and beyond what God's Torah would later instruct. That was because he loved Adonai. They were righteous because they had a relationship with the Lord. Torah was an expression of their love for God and that relationship.
Deuteronomy 10:16 -- "Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiffnecked (faithless) no longer."
Deuteronomy 30:6
6 Also Adonai your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants—to love Adonai your God with all your heart and with all your soul, in order that you may live.
Exodus 12:48-49
48 But if an outsider dwells with you, who would keep the Passover for Adonai, all his males must be circumcised. Then let him draw near and keep it. He will be like one who is native to the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat from it. 49 The same Torah applies to the native as well as the outsider who dwells among you.”
Torah is about showing God that you love him. Avoiding sin.
We are justified by faith, but faith without deeds is dead. (Gal. 2:16, James 2:26)
Logged on saw the thread had to post, take it easy.
Last edited:
Exactly. Keeping Torah doesn't save. Never has, never will. Salvation is by faith. Always has been (Gen. 15:6), always will be.
Torah is simply the clear direct Word from the mouth of Yeshua to the ear and pen of Moses. Torah is the surest way to please God.
C
Cap
Guest
Who is to say how the implications of 'keeping Torah' is to be to an individual?
Scripture tells us what the major/obvious points are... the finer points will be individual according to the guidance of the Spirit.
Example: The feasts of the Lord are a given, though minor points in how a family, clan or tribe observe may have slight variances.
Example: The feasts of the Lord are a given, though minor points in how a family, clan or tribe observe may have slight variances.
I think the perspective gained from this verse can so easily be determined by bias on both sides.Bzzzzt. Sorry. That won't fly. The decision of Acts 15 is summed up in vss. 20 AND 21. Everybody stops reading at 20 and doesn't go to the next verse.
21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."
Simply, v. 20 gives the basic requirements to get cleaned up to enter into fellowship because... v.21! They would learn Moses (Torah), in the synagogue on the Sabbath.
Example.
1) Because Moses is taught in the synagogue on Sabbath, we should teach it too!
Or
2) Moses is taught in the synagogue on Sabbath, if they wanna know what Moses taught they can learn it there.
While that may seem true viewing this verse in isolation, that thought doesn't work in context. Else it sounds like this:
''Don't do this, this and this because Moses is taught in the synagogue on the Sabbath.'' (The 'we should do it too' line is then eisegetically added with zero lead in from anywhere in the story.)
And, if the story goes as you say it could, then why aren't we teaching Torah? Feasts, Sabbath, clean eating, etc?
My bias would read more as, This is what we are teaching, don’t do this, and this and this. If they wanna know what Moses taught, there are other places that do that every Sabbath.
This raises a good point. The fact that so many have strayed from the anabaptist roots combined with the fact that most view Baptist as a distinct denomination definitely “gives me pause” but even the term Christian has been distorted and is now very misunderstood compared to the original definition. So should we also reject that label?
I tend to avoid the term 'Christian' or clearly qualify it because it doesn't mean even what it meant 50 years ago, nevermind first century. It is more a social term, now.
Ive started clarifying it by saying I’m trying to learn how to be a First Century Christian. That usually opens the door for an opportunity to witness both to other believers and pagans. It’s amazing how easy the topic of poly comes up on occasion when they ask what the difference is.
I tend to say I am a bond servant of Christ.
I reject any label but Christ's (1 Cor 3). As to anabaptist roots I'm dubious. American Baptists, to the extent they were influenced by the old world, trace back to Great Britain. That movement likely predates the reformation and to the extent they are influenced by the continent, it was as much by Calvinists via the Geneva Bible as Anabaptists. Anabaptism was a continental movement and very distinct from them. Not just in theology but also worship.
Well this statement is no longer true. Thought it might be worth while to update...