Lashon Hara - Evil speech

[IshChayil]

So this is a mitzvah observed in Jewish communities which is very important.
I don't have time to do a full write up so I'm hopping @nikkud or @PeteR or someone else can help with the heavy listing. I have been feeling the prodding of the Ruach Haqodesh to post about this here.

Lashon Hara is a grave sin. The basic introduction is that "evil speech" occurs when you talk about someone behind their back, even if it is true, in order to defame the person. Our sages consider this murder.
When I teach about Lashon Hara to people, I usually get the response "but what if it's true!?"
That's exactly the sin. The damaging information which you are sharing IS true and you are killing their sheym (name/reputation/fame). We are not even allowed to hear Lashon Hara which is why Facebook and other social media, often Biblical Families even, is a cesspool of sin. It's hard to guard our eyes against reading Lashon Hara. I'll write more about this later. The deeper sin, if you know it's not true is called motsi sheym ra . I want to focus on the sin which is telling something about somebody which is true in order to defame the person. The exceptions are to protect from an impending danger (this is often abused since we all love to do lashon hara). I'm no better than anyone else on this; it's a constant struggle to grow to avoid lashon hara but nevertheless it's an important mitzvah. Pleasee do not turn this into a "does the Law still matter", we are in the Messianic section so this so any such intrusion is a violation of the spirit in which @andrew set up this section.
I'm discussing this mitzvah with Torah keepers; if someone else is curious you are welcome to chime in just let's not go that direction with it. Thanks. Hoping someone can fill out a better explanation; this is just a short short intro. Maybe someone can mention the teaching from the chofetz chayim regarding the feather pillow?
This mitzvah is "do not go about among your people as a tale bearer". Good stuff from the book of Ya'aqov (goyisha translation "James") about this as well.
May He who makes peace in the heavenlies also make peace for us and for all Israel.

 

[Mojo]

Does the clause to protect from impending danger include protection for a congregation, ministry or other godly work? I didn't know of Hashan Lara before, but generally abide by its principles as a matter of personal morals.

But, having been in ministerial leadership, it's unavoidable if you want to keep leaven from leavening the whole lump.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

I have not heard of this before, and don’t have the time to be a part of the discussion at this time. My initial response is negative to the idea, especially if the information is true. It seems that would allow evil to prey upon others who are unaware. Maybe this is why Matt. 18 is written the way it is, and a good reason for why it should be used far more than we do.

I’m interested to see this fleshed out, especially the history of how it originated and supporting documents of how it came to be in real life, as well as how it has been used and should be used in real time, nuts and bolts.

 

[steve]

The basic introduction is that "evil speech" occurs when you talk about someone behind their back, even if it is true, in order to defame the person.

I think that this is the money quote.
Both the OT and the NT are filled with the failures of people. Not to defame them, but as examples to us.

 

[FollowingHim2]

I see major problems with this. Like, if someone is a false prophet, and you can prove it, are you then not allowed to say anything because it's defaming their character? I've had people telling me I was going to hell for sinning for speaking against a (false) prophet (with bible verses to back it up even), this concept would only give them more ammo.

 

[Maverick]

I see major problems with this. Like, if someone is a false prophet, and you can prove it, are you then not allowed to say anything because it's defaming their character? I've had people telling me I was going to hell for sinning for speaking against a (false) prophet (with bible verses to back it up even), this concept would only give them more ammo.

Good on you for speaking against false teachers and false prophets! God bless you!

Jude v.3

Ephesians 5:11

 

[Joleneakamama]

The definition of defamation of character requires that what was said be false. This agrees with the commandment about not bearing false witness.

The golden rule and the new testament would make it important to go a person who you had an issue with in private first, before making the issue public. But if someone does wrong, breaks a contract, etc. to protect their reputation is too close to loving a lie for me. It is a false image, and to not let others know could enable them to harm others.

What that (not midrash) mitsvah describes would be totally loved by any corrupt politician or religious person abusing their position. Someone who treats people right and lives an upright life does not need such a midrash being followed to protect their reputation.

Jesus spoke parables publicly exposing the wickedness and evil intent of some. They knew He was speaking about them....and I'm sure there were others that figured it out too!
If He did this then exposing wicked and sinful people is not sinful, and it can help protect the innocent from harm.

(Like the principle of the guilty bystander)

 

[Pacman]

I’m unfamiliar with this particular midrash but it’s basically my understanding of gossip. The rule thumb that I teach my wife and children with regard to sharing negative information about someone is this:

1. Is the person I’m sharing with directly involved in the situation or are they in a position to improve the situation?

2. does this person need to know because they or others are in danger if they don’t have this information?

as far as false information well that is defined as slander and is clearly forbidden...

 

[IshChayil]

Does the clause to protect from impending danger include protection for a congregation, ministry or other godly work? I didn't know of Hashan Lara before, but generally abide by its principles as a matter of personal morals.
But, having been in ministerial leadership, it's unavoidable if you want to keep leaven from leavening the whole lump.

So this is where it gets hairy; people often move that goalpost with "ministry" as an excuse (not saying you though as I thought what you wrote before that is right on). I think some examples may go a long way to fill in the blanks. Pastor Bob talking to Deacon Bill, "I saw Deacon Brad shouting at an Uber driver the other day."
This is a clear example of evil speech in the Jewish/Messianic world; There is no benefit of the doubt, there is no reasonable "protection" of anyone, the conversation only defames Brad. Bill did not need to know this in order to have his life saved, or his finances saved from a thief or his family protected; Bill likely has his own sins to work out. I've been in and out of ministry for a long time and we're all sinners so no need for reporters reporting in on other peoples' sins yet they're just so interesting! More often than not the motivation is to defame the other person often for the purpose of self-agrandisement or jealousy. If you ever visit a synagogue, there's an 80%+ chance the sermon will at least mention Lashon Hara (Loshoyn Hoyro in Azhkenazi) because humans love to tear each other down.

I have not heard of this before, and don’t have the time to be a part of the discussion at this time. My initial response is negative to the idea, especially if the information is true. It seems that would allow evil to prey upon others who are unaware. ...

Yes, the extreme danger cases are permitted. If someone is a known child molester, and they are going to babysit your friends' kids, you are obligated to inform them of the molesting. The problem is people usually make excuses and call EVERYTHING "protecting people" when really most of the time the communication qualifies as Lashon Hara. Brad didn't need to know that Bill was angry, argumentative, slipped up somehow. The limit is actually what you mentioned evil preying on others but the tendency for people in wickedness is to move that definition of what is preying. Protection from Rape, Theft, Murder, etc. fits the bill of not being lashon hara.

I see major problems with this. Like, if someone is a false prophet, and you can prove it....

This is a scenario which is not lashon hara b/c peoples' eternal salvation is at risk as well as their livelihood, their spiritual connection to Hashem etc... it is a pakuach nefesh "a life risk" scenario and is not lashon hara.
So you are correct; exposing false prophets actually IS a mitzvah.

******** not responding to anyone in particular now just qualifying a bit more ******
For example here on Biblical Families, it is very rare that any of us are in danger from anyone else so according to the Laws of Lashon Hara, it is a sin when we inform others about negative things of those persons (when said things are true how much more so if they are false or assumed). If, someone shows up who we think is very likely a scammer, and we have information to contribute about that, then it is not lashon hara because getting robbed is valid to speak such a truth about someone. Defaming others (with truths, or perceived truths) in order to protecting feelings of people for example is not permitted and is considered like @Mojo called it gossip; lashon hara. This, in my opinion, is one of the most difficult sins to get under control and it's a constant struggle for out of the mouth man blesses Gd and curses fellow man.

Will add some more hopefully later tonight my time. The hardest part for people to wrap their heads around because we live in such a juicy gossip era where everyone wants to know what celebrity cheated on their spouse with whom, is that the basic form of Lashon Hara is true.
As we delve deeper into this I hope many will see how many sins are nestled in & guarded by Lashon Hara or flourish with it's nurture.

Sorry it's hodge podge for now. THere's a bunch of stuff spread out throughout scripture which culminates into the lashon hara teachings of the sages. One of the things lashon hara does is cause enmity between people and that's one of the things Gd hates. Often if someone had just been silent there would have been no enmity caused.

 

[IshChayil]

The definition of defamation of character requires that what was said be false.

Well maybe I'm abusing English now I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure you can reduce someone's positive fame by telling truths about them.
For example, say a gal had an ex-husband who was kind of a jerk. Then they divorced. Now he's a preacher and she starts yammering about what a jerk he was all the things he did, control freak etc.
That will certainly reduce his fame, i.e. defame him; not in a legal sense so I'm not sure how defamation laws work but you see what I mean?
It's not our job to announce others' sins to other people like we are the sin judges/police. I think most interpret this word in a legal sense so maybe substitute a different word if this one is confusing people; the dictionary lists "malign" as a synonym so maybe that's a better word choice so folks don't think about legal defamation.

The golden rule and the new testament would make it important to go a person who you had an issue with in private first, before making the issue public. But if someone does wrong, breaks a contract, etc. to protect their reputation is too close to loving a lie for me. It is a false image, and to not let others know could enable them to harm others.

Well the dispute resolution given in Matthew is if we have a problem with someone 1st go to the person privately, then take a witness, then go to the elders (like 3 guys) not the entire congregation or a group larger than 3.
It's not our job to protect or destroy someone else's reputation by getting as may people in on the sin as possible. This is the great sin that people find it their duty to destroy other peoples' reputations as if they themselves are somehow righteous.
When we are honest about it we should see our own righteousness as laughable. Nobody needs to hear from us that so-and-so is an ego-maniac, or a snob, or pompous, or creepy, or yells at their spouse, or whatever...
unless it raises to the level like @Pacman said of truly protecting someone else form danger, financial harm etc. Very measurable harm.

What that midrash describes would be totally loved by any corrupt politician or religious person abusing their position. Someone who treats people right and lives an upright life does not need such a midrash being followed to protect their reputation.

Not picking on you ok, it's not a midrash we are talking about. Now political figures are a bit of a different thing in the laws of Lashon Hara but we can get to that later as it will muddy the water (I understand your stance on that and intuitively I think you are close on that). The reason I'm avoiding the political issue for now is it doesn't really apply to how must of us do this sin daily or hourly. I will get around to that one though after we've fleshed out the sinning against other congregants at the same congregation, ie the more general problem first (then the specific issue of politicians). I think you'll agree with it anyway.

Jesus spoke parables publicly exposing the wickedness and evil intent of some. They knew He was speaking about them....and I'm sure there were others that figured it out too!
If He did this then exposing wicked and sinful people is not sinful, and it can help protect the innocent from harm.

yep, you nailed it. At times he protected their identities but they knew who they were (who knows what that thing is in the midrash where he writes stuff in the ground and the dudes all left), and other times he was clearly protecting people from false doctrines which would lead to perdition. Protecting people from permanent death / Gehennom is not lashon hara.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Thank you @IshChayil for clearing up the concept and explaining.
To be honest I think tabloid gossip is totally stupid, and I think little of people that worry about that sort of thing.
Hear say and rumor mills are very likely to be wrong, and spending any time on such nonsense is pointless.
The world would be a better place if people who indulged in that quit.

 

[FollowingHim2]

o be honest I think tabloid gossip is totally stupid, and I think little of people that worry about that sort of thing.

It's not just tabloid stuff though. Think of things you see on the news. For example, I remember reading one time about two neighbours who were arguing over the height of a fence in a city about 15 hours drive away. I thought, what does this have to do with me? Why am I hearing about this? It's really just gossip, both of them slandering each other in some way, and it didn't affect me in any way. But those kinds of articles are what the news is full of, things that don't affect anyone else but are designed to make you choose sides or be outraged about something.

 

[rockfox]

I don't know what "Lashon Hara" is or where the phrase comes from but it sounds like ya'll talking about gossip. It is indeed a common problem, and spoken against in the OT, yet something the churches don't like to talk about.

 

[The Revolting Man]

It does seem a little extreme to take a undeniable prohibition against gossip and turn it in to murder.

 

[MrB]

Perhaps it’s less about the victim and more about the perpetrator...in that, if I am the perpetrator And I allow myself to skate on a slippery slope where does it all lead.
If I will take any opportunity to damage defame hurt another , where does it end?
Just a thought

 

[steve]

It is possible, and probable, for the damage inflicted by the tongue to outlast the damage inflicted by a knife.
People are not like chickens, they will not continue to peck open a physical wound.
But an emotional wound they will expose to others until the victim is completely eviscerated.

Murder?
Physical death at least has an ending point.

 

[IshChayil]

It does seem a little extreme to take a undeniable prohibition against gossip and turn it in to murder.

"Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." John 3:15 NKJV

Seems we have some N.T. precedent from the Messiah for making even inner emotions at least on path to murder right? How much more so acts of maligning a brother's reputation which can impact him and his family in untold ways?

 

[The Revolting Man]

"Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." John 3:15 NKJV

Seems we have some N.T. precedent from the Messiah for making even inner emotions at least on path to murder right? How much more so acts of maligning a brother's reputation which can impact him and his family in untold ways?

I’m going to stand by it. Gossip isn’t even hating your brother let alone murder. Maybe it’s because I’ve racked a round on a crowd of Haitians that I can’t conflate the two. I can promise you that they preferred I gossip on them.

 

[Mojo]

Thanks for your reply @IshChayil. When I was penning the "protection of ministry" I had both a current and historical/biblical perspective. The historical/biblical was coming mainly from Paul and his epistles to the Corinthian assembly. He was writing a letter to them based on information passed onto him by others. How does that fit into Lashon Hara?

 

[IshChayil]

I’m going to stand by it. Gossip isn’t even hating your brother let alone murder. Maybe it’s because I’ve racked a round on a crowd of Haitians that I can’t conflate the two. I can promise you that they preferred I gossip on them.

I bet they also preferred non-violant hate on them over actual murder. Who wouldn't?

Lashon hara is always damaging information; so it's "a little bit of hating" since it damages them at least a little bit.
Lashon hara is not done out of love. The Torah calls the wife who is "loved less" the שנואי and in some places the שנואה s'nu'i / s'nuah literally "hated one."
Even if you don't fully agree yet, maybe you can see how we can get there. I understand how you don't wanna consider it murder though.
I dont think anyone really considers hating someone murder either. I mean really. Does anyone really think that way, ... ever other than an obscure sermon?

Since we don't really really buy it; that's why I leveraged on Yeshua's remarks for support to Another parallel (that we also don't really buy as murder even if the Messiah says so). Nobody really buys literally what he's saying that hating is murder; I mean nobody lives that way so fearful of acting out in hateful ways for fear of becoming a "murder." At any rate, even if we don't buy it as "murder" we can still understand it to be sin.

In our tradition the reason Miriam was struck with tsaras (not really leprosy) is that this was the punishment for her Lashon Hara against Moses.
I know it's just tradition but this is one of the really really strong ones; i.e. everyone is on board (in our camp).
[sorry if thoughts scattered ; this is just a quick check in as we scurry for shabbat[.

final thought, I don't use the term gossip because it's an English term that has been ruined and is not a good translation for the prohibition of Lashon Hara in Leviticus. Gosip makes people think of cackling highschool girls sharing how so-and-so is dating so-and-so. It's not a severe enough word which is also probably why it's a bit harder in English to see how "lashon hara" does not flow from a neutral place (as that kind of gosip may).