Lashon Hara - Evil speech

[IshChayil]

Thanks for your reply @IshChayil. When I was penning the "protection of ministry" I had both a current and historical/biblical perspective. The historical/biblical was coming mainly from Paul and his epistles to the Corinthian assembly. He was writing a letter to them based on information passed onto him by others. How does that fit into Lashon Hara?

In the case of Paul having been informed of the Corinthians, I think it's fair to say the issues raise to the level of "life risk" as the actions these individuals were engaging in would result in loss of salvation, and loss of salvation for others; especially at such a crucial time as the fledgling congregation (imagine how vital these original congregations were for the survival of the new small sect of "way followers?"

 

[Mojo]

In the case of Paul having been informed of the Corinthians, I think it's fair to say the issues raise to the level of "life risk" as the actions these individuals were engaging in would result in loss of salvation, and loss of salvation for others; especially at such a crucial time as the fledgling congregation (imagine how vital these original congregations were for the survival of the new small sect of "way followers?"

Thanks.

This is essentially what I was implying in my first comment/question for you. Our modern congregations may not rise to the level of the first generation congregations in their overall importance to the movement, but they may feel that their existence is crucial to the work of the Almighty in their city or region. Therefore, congregation leaders engaging in conversations about others is a life or death proposition for the survival of that assembly if there is sin in the camp that is threatening.

 

[IshChayil]

Thanks.

This is essentially what I was implying in my first comment/question for you. Our modern congregations may not rise to the level of the first generation congregations in their overall importance to the movement, but they may feel that their existence is crucial to the work of the Almighty in their city or region. Therefore, congregation leaders engaging in conversations about others is a life or death proposition for the survival of that assembly if there is sin in the camp that is threatening.

Yes but I'm sure you are well aware, the sins/character flaws/etc discussed are very rarely life and death issues for ministries wouldn't you agree?
That's why I made sure to mention how people use it as an excuse like "protecting people." Rarely does the evil speech rise to the occasion of becoming a necessity in ministry even.

 

[FollowingHim]

The one piece of advice we were given pre-marriage that really stuck in my mind, was to never talk negatively about our spouse to other people, even if what we are saying is true. This is excellent advice - obviously it has limits (if you truly need marital advice for instance you're going to have to discuss negative things), but we all instinctively know the rough boundary line between malicious gossip and serious important discussion.

That advice was just for a married couple, but as I read your posts on I realise this would be good to apply more widely to other family members, and then wider again to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

It's always good advice not to gossip - but it really makes sense when you realise that you have a duty of care to your spouse, and then more widely to your Christian brethren. Which gives more sound reasons not to gossip.

 

[Mojo]

Yes but I'm sure you are well aware, the sins/character flaws/etc discussed are very rarely life and death issues for ministries wouldn't you agree?
That's why I made sure to mention how people use it as an excuse like "protecting people." Rarely does the evil speech rise to the occasion of becoming a necessity in ministry even.

Like I mentioned first, I do agree with the overall premise, but I guess I've just been involved in congregational leadership too long and have seen some interesting things go on that may not necessarily rise to life/death, but are certainly threatening of vigorous health to make an absolute pact.

 

[IshChayil]

Like I mentioned first, I do agree with the overall premise, but I guess I've just been involved in congregational leadership too long and have seen some interesting things go on that may not necessarily rise to life/death, but are certainly threatening of vigorous health to make an absolute pact.

I hear ya, me too. What I have seen all too often though is even when it IS necessary to discuss among leadership, folks go beyond that and share with those outside of leadership.
From a Jewish cultural perspective it's absolutely insane the practice of some denominations to have people actually make public confessions to the entire assembly; lashon hara-ing themselves, ie. suicide.
I see this as a misunderstanding of what "confess to one another" means; i.e. confessing privately to a brother / sis whom we've wronged.

An example of how this sort of thing gets out of hand (not the confessing I'm off that now). When I was in Ukraine I attended an American church on Sunday and a Ukrainian church on Wednesday.
I was interested in joining the praise and worship team b/c I play an instrument and the pastor told me, "not now, we have a problem with fornication between members of the praise team now."
Well to a lot of Christians that seems like fine what he did, but guess what; there was only 1 girl on the praise team so I then knew who 1 of the "fornicators" was as well as anyone else who wanted to join or for whatever reason he felt like letting that slip. I think far too often we err on the wrong side of protecting people and their reps (I'm not preaching down to anyone BTW this one is hard for me to get a hold on as well; the tongue is just such a wicked weapon). We always find excuses, even those who know this teaching will use facial gestures, hints, etc. as if that escapes the sin since it's not technically speech.
I challenge everyone, myself included, to go a week without saying something bad about someone else, even when you think it's necessary (yes not life and death or extreme financial hardship or child molestation stuff).
Keep track see if you can do it. If you can well mazel tov to you, now try to avoid when others tell you stuff like that. Try to say, "sorry I'm trying to avoid evil speech right now so I can't listen to you tell me what a blowhard that person is." I'll be trying too. If you haven't understood this verse from R'Shaul, you'll get it after a week for sure:
ὃ γὰρ κατεργάζομαι οὐ γινώσκω· οὐ γὰρ ὃ θέλω τοῦτο πράσσω, ἀλλʼ ὃ μισῶ τοῦτο ποιῶ.
טו "For that which I myself do, I don't even understand; for that which I desire not, I do; but that which I hate I do!"
Letter to the Kehal in Rome 7:15

(BTW he uses 3 different Greek words that I watered down to a simple "do ... do ... do" probably someone could do an interesting word study on those guys:
katergazomai - "do, achieve, accomplish, produce, create"
prasso - "do, bring about, accomplish something thru activity, behave a way"
poeio - "do, manufacture, produce" )

 

[steve]

Excellent post, tough to do but gonna try.
This is gold:

(BTW he uses 3 different Greek words that I watered down to a simple "do ... do ... do" probably someone could do an interesting word study on those guys:
katergazomai - "do, achieve, accomplish, produce, create"
prasso - "do, bring about, accomplish something thru activity, behave a way"
poeio - "do, manufacture, produce" )

 

[steve]

.

 

[rockfox]

From a Jewish cultural perspective it's absolutely insane the practice of some denominations to have people actually make public confessions to the entire assembly; lashon hara-ing themselves, ie. suicide.
I see this as a misunderstanding of what "confess to one another" means; i.e. confessing privately to a brother / sis whom we've wronged.

If the sin was public, what is wrong with that?

 

[FollowingHim]

Good challenge @IshChayil, thanks.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

(BTW he uses 3 different Greek words that I watered down to a simple "do ... do ... do" probably someone could do an interesting word study on those guys:
katergazomai - "do, achieve, accomplish, produce, create"
prasso - "do, bring about, accomplish something thru activity, behave a way"
poeio - "do, manufacture, produce" )

WHAT. SICK.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

So how does this reconcile with Matthew 18:15-17. There’s no indication that the trespass is equal to the level of life and death, and yet the sequence is to tell other people. First one, then a couple more, then the whole assembly.

What am I missing?

 

[rockfox]

There is a difference between telling tales and enlisting the help of others in getting a brother (whom you are in fellowship with) to repent.

 

[Keith Martin]

"Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." John 3:15 NKJV

Seems we have some N.T. precedent from the Messiah for making even inner emotions at least on path to murder right? How much more so acts of maligning a brother's reputation which can impact him and his family in untold ways?

@IshChayil, thank you for this thread. I'll be upfront about this and openly state that I believe this business of talking negatively about people behind their backs is almost certainly my worst sin pattern -- and that's true even after having been working at eliminating it for many, many years.

I am not a TK/HR/Messianic person, so I pray I will not slip over any fences with the following two comments.

1. As far as defamation goes, I believe that it doesn't require falsehood but that it does require an obvious or apparent intention to cause reputation harm to an individual, which means that providing true information for neutral or positive intentions wouldn't be defamation but providing it for the intention of damaging another person's reputation would be.

2. Some of the particular etymology for the terms 'hates' and 'murder' you quote from John 3:15 (which leads into one of the bedrock indirect admonitions of Scripture), is that the attitude and/or expression we deem hatred has as a direct connotation a wishing a person were dead, which is a mental murder, much like coveting is a mental taking or intention to take. Hating another person is far more intense than just disliking him or disapproving of him or wishing to avoid him; it is figuratively a wishing for the person's nonexistence. So I don't have any problem with the use of the term 'murder' in this context, because such defamatory gossip is certainly at best attempted murder of another person's reputation.

Your challenge to go a week without backstabbing anyone is a good one. I believe others here have also made good contributions, because it's essential to make the distinction between what you're addressing and the need to go through the progressive approach outlined in Matthew related to a person's ongoing publicly-known behavior that is already having demonstrated negative known effects on others in a community. It would seem to me that we're talking about two different animals.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

There is a difference between telling tales and enlisting the help of others in getting a brother (whom you are in fellowship with) to repent.

But according to the standard presented for acceptable vrs. Unacceptable conditions for telling another (matter of life and death), a trespass does not appear to satisfy that condition, and yet Christ is instructing his disciples to tell the matter to others if its not resolved in the first instance. Going so far as to bring it before the entire assembly over a trespass.

Also, if this standard is a true standard, how would anyone be able to testify in any case other than a capital offense. Say, for instance, theft? Fraud? Or any of the instances cited in Leviticus 6:1-4?

I’m sure I must be missing something . . . . .

 

[frederick]

Christ is instructing his disciples to tell the matter to others if its not resolved in the first instance. Going so far as to bring it before the entire assembly over a trespass.

Three matters are of concern in these instructions; restoration of the sinner (beneficial for the sinner and his/her relationship with God and His church), purity of the assembly (beneficial for everyone's relationship with God and His church), God's glory (beneficial for everyone). Gossip, telling tales, etc., is never beneficial hence the prohibition. The things we say ought to be constructive, and seeking a resolution to interpersonal conflicts is constructive - when carried out as God commands.
Whatever we do, we are to do everything to the glory of God (1 Cor. 10:31) and only by obeying Him can we bring Him glory. $0.02

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Three matters are of concern in these instructions; restoration of the sinner (beneficial for the sinner and his/her relationship with God and His church), purity of the assembly (beneficial for everyone's relationship with God and His church), God's glory (beneficial for everyone). Gossip, telling tales, etc., is never beneficial hence the prohibition. The things we say ought to be constructive, and seeking a resolution to interpersonal conflicts is constructive - when carried out as God commands.
Whatever we do, we are to do everything to the glory of God (1 Cor. 10:31) and only by obeying Him can we bring Him glory. $0.02

I do get this idea. I’ll say that I’ve been on the receiving end of gossip and defamation myself. I totally get that speech like this is not wise or becoming a Christian.

But as I understand it, at least thus far, the standard is far beyond mere gossip, even malicious gossip. It also includes and thus bans truth about offenses/trespasses that have not been resolved.

 

[Mojo]

I hear ya, me too. What I have seen all too often though is even when it IS necessary to discuss among leadership, folks go beyond that and share with those outside of leadership.
" )

That is unacceptable. We agree.


Curious. What about when the person is actually, physically dead? What's the guideline as you see it at that point?

 

[IshChayil]

If the sin was public, what is wrong with that?

I don't see anything wrong with that; if the sin was public it's already known.
The scope of the public apology should be in line with how public the sin was. For example, if a brother maligns another brother in front of 8 people; he should make his apology also to those 8 people. If it's known to have "gone viral" then seems to me a full on public apology is the correct *start* of teshuvah.

That is unacceptable. We agree.
Curious. What about when the person is actually, physically dead? What's the guideline as you see it at that point?

Nice question; in our culture it's still not allowed as it's still killing the sheym (name, reputation) of the person. Ultimately this also impacts family members, children, etc. This is one reason Jewish people often flip out when someone calls our ancestor Jacob a 'liar" or a "cheat" for a 1 time event he did ordered by his mother.
It's not only lashon hara against him, it's not even true so it's the greater sin of "motsi sheym ra" (when lashon hara is not true) as well as a violation of the 5th command "honor your father and mother" which we see as extending to grandparents, great grandparents, etc.
That said, if it's not a relative and a special circumstance i.e. someone with out a family, this seems to lesson the level of sin against the dead. The Talmud goes a bit into this indirectly in Berachot in the discussions about what the dead know of the world of the living so if those speculations are correct then it continues to hurt the individual to learn they are being maligned... (big *if* there).

There is a difference between telling tales and enlisting the help of others in getting a brother (whom you are in fellowship with) to repent.

Exactly, and especially limiting the number of individuals whose help is enlisted to get the person to repent. If you bring a slew of people to the party you've just done lashon hara against the person. If any of the persons you brought are persons who may have helped that person in the future in some way, say a plane ticket somewhere, or some wise counsel which they later are uninterested in doing because of your lashon hara, heaven will rectify that as additional damages done to the victim of lashon hara. This is why Yeshua limits the collateral exposure when pushing a brother to repent.

I'm overjoyed that many in our community are interested in and considering this serious sin which most of us partake in daily.

 

[Mojo]

Thank you.